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Pros and Cons to Circumcising - Page 3

post #41 of 67
Two "pro's" I can think of:

1) Maintain social conformity.

2) Protect the cut daddy's ego.

On the "con" side:

1) You give your son an inferior penis.


So, you can see to some how the "pro's" might outweigh the "cons." But it's your job as a parent to give your child something better, while ignoring your immediate needs.
post #42 of 67
Congrats on your pregnancy and on snagging an awesome husband!

Feel free to check out my blog, I posted a ton of info and links (including most of what you'll find here) regarding circ. Link is also in my siggy.

http://helpfindthetruth.blogspot.com...cumcision.html

Even if this forum wasn't against circ, there is absolutely no reason what-so-ever to circumcise.
post #43 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31 View Post
1) You give your son an inferior penis.
lol, I disagree with your negative. The act of circumcision on minors is a horrible thing. And I have always been very much against it. But even I have to admit, that I have talked to guys who got cut as adults and liked the results.

We shouldn't be making judgment calls on what a "inferior" penis is, because thats exactly the narrative of the pro-circers, and its that kind of thinking that got america to have the mindset that were in today.
----

OP-

Pro's
on infants- absolutely none, thats like asking me the pro's of FGM or rape. This is a forced act where, the persons body, and the very way they will feel sex, will be altered forever.

The very reason we are on this site is because all of us here have realized there are no real advantages to infant circumcision. Its like going up to a fireman and asking him for a pro/con list to decide if they should set their house on fire.
post #44 of 67
Thread Starter 
I have to agree - I don't find an intact penis "inferior" either. Although, the first (and only) one I've seen I didn't even realize what I was looking at! It took a second for it all to click together.

I must concede to the "no pros" part everybody has said. Even in other searches I have found very little to support it (religious beliefs).
post #45 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
lol, I disagree with your negative. The act of circumcision on minors is a horrible thing. And I have always been very much against it. But even I have to admit, that I have talked to guys who got cut as adults and liked the results.

We shouldn't be making judgment calls on what a "inferior" penis is, because thats exactly the narrative of the pro-circers, and its that kind of thinking that got america to have the mindset that were in today.
You are free to disagree, but I will disagree with you right back. Barring some unusual problem with an intact penis, it will do nothing to improve it to have it cut. It may be a minor loss to someone who doesn't know any better, but if there are complications it can only get worse from there. I will gladly make a judgement call on it. The lack of making judgement calls....it's all good...whatever the PARENTS choose is ok, blah, blah....is what has allowed this practice to flourish into a modern age when we should know better. Until the pro-circ fathers who thrust their sons forward to be mutilated understand and accept this, they will continue to do it.

And be careful about anecdotal evidence from guys that had the luxury of choosing later in life to be cut and claim to know "both sides." I know one guy too that is 25 now and chose to get it done when he was 15. He didn't have any problems but was afraid of "fitting in." He now regrets it. Cosmetically, he ended up with a glans that is strangely twisted to the right and after ten years KNOWS he has lost sensation. Now, he will strongly urge anyone else in the same position NOT to do it. Do I think he is representative of all guys who have it done when they are older? I have no idea and it really doesn't matter. For him and others that CHOSE to do it later, you have to realize there is a great mental benefit that comes with them making the choice themselves. They have a vested interest in liking it. Plus, as I've said, most of them haven't had 10, 20, 30, 40 years of the effects of the circ set in yet like someone done as an infant will have. They may think all is good....but get back to me in 20 years is all I would say. I know at your age you can't fathom wanting a sex life at 40, but trust me....you will.
post #46 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31 View Post
You are free to disagree, but I will disagree with you right back. Barring some unusual problem with an intact penis, it will do nothing to improve it to have it cut. It may be a minor loss to someone who doesn't know any better, but if there are complications it can only get worse from there. I will gladly make a judgement call on it.
: Circumcision takes away an integral part of the penis and imo that does make it inferior. I don't care how happy men are that have chosen (chosen a key word here) to have part of their penis removed it still makes their penis lacking.
post #47 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31 View Post
Until the pro-circ fathers who thrust their sons forward to be mutilated understand and accept this, they will continue to do it.
I know one guy too that is 25 now and chose to get it done when he was 15. He didn't have any problems but was afraid of "fitting in." He now regrets it. Cosmetically, he ended up with a glans that is strangely twisted to the right and after ten years KNOWS he has lost sensation...Do I think he is representative of all guys who have it done when they are older? I have no idea and it really doesn't matter. For him and others that CHOSE to do it later, you have to realize there is a great mental benefit that comes with them making the choice themselves. Plus, as I've said, most of them haven't had 10, 20, 30, 40 years of the effects of the circ set in yet like someone done as an infant will have. They may think all is good....but get back to me in 20 years is all I would say. I know at your age you can't fathom wanting a sex life at 40, but trust me....you will.
Yes, its true, until pro-circ fathers AND pro-circ mothers fully understand the risks, and alterations they are making, parents will continue to do it. I agree with you there.

But you also make a point that supports mine, guys will have different feelings toward circ. Its good for some guys and not for others, its a personal decision. Its not surprising that a guy who got cut because he wanted to "fit in" regretted it later. But as you said, (which is the core to all my beliefs around this issue) True, pure choice is what makes the difference.

Where I disagree with you, is when "others" in our society think they have a better understanding of what a male is going to want for their penis, then what the actual owner of that penis does. When you say, many circ guys will be singing a different tune when they are older, is the same thing like mothers who say "o, his wife will thank me that I had him circumcised."

I actually know three men in their 50's with very active, functional sex lives. One being my father, another being my ex-girlfriends Dad, and my other friend's Dad. (He is single again, and we actually walked in on him with someone by mistake. Horrible moment, but trust me, he was having a good time)

I will want a sex life after 40, I know that, lol and I believe if I restore, or not, thats fully possible. But making judgments on how other mens penises should be, is what started circumcision in this country, and I dont care if you disagree with me or not, but your opinion is corruptive to this cause.

I dont say this to be mean, but to instill the point that all of this will not be resolved just when we stop circumcisions in this country. But when we get rid of the idea that male body is something meant for outside forces to impose their beliefs on. There is no "winning" argument here, only that everyone has a right to their own bodies, and be able to do what they want with it, without the threat of ridicule from others groups who feel they have a "better" idea.
post #48 of 67
I don't think there would be many men lining up for circumcisions if they weren't raised in a culture that thinks the foreskin is just 'a dirt and bacteria attracting flap of extra skin' that causes all kinds of bad things to happen.
I don't think a man with a good feeling about his foreskin would choose to have it cut off.

I think being very honest about the fact that a penis with out a foreskin is lacking will in the long run be benificial to ending this abuse.
post #49 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
There is no "winning" argument here, only that everyone has a right to their own bodies, and be able to do what they want with it, without the threat of ridicule from others groups who feel they have a "better" idea.
Ummm, relax. Nobody is trying to "win" anything; save that for the teen board debates. Leaving something alone is not thrusting anything on anyone; big difference.
post #50 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31 View Post
Ummm, relax. Nobody is trying to "win" anything; save that for the teen board debates. Leaving something alone is not thrusting anything on anyone; big difference.
Thats the problem, you dont realize your doing it. You think natural is a better choice for boys, pro-circers think modified is better. While I think it does not matter what either group thinks, the choice and the right should be the males alone.

Ever wonder why many people in our culture somehow will have no problem with circumcision, but in general the rest of their belief system in general should counter such an opinion? One of the most basic reasons circumcision stays so popular in this country is because our culture supports the line of thought, that its ok for other people to apply their judgements on baby boys bodies, even if that means surgery. This line of thought provides a crack through our moral system, so people can accept something they normally would not accept.

Getting rid of this "logic" is key to ending circumcision in the United States, and keeping it gone. In the same way it has for female circumcision. The issue of natural vs modified is not even brought up for baby girls, because such a discussion is seen as not making any sense in the first place.
post #51 of 67

If it aint broke don't fix it.

I'm a little late chimming in. I wanted to congratulate you on your pregnancy and give you my 2 cents on penis cutting on non-consenting minors.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but we have oodles of threads in this forum from regretful moms. They are sad, very VERY sad. Many come here to discuss their son's penile adhesions and discuss their child's distress over a painful penis.

Adhessions are one the biggest complications of circumcision. You should research "penile adhesions" and read up on that. The pain that many little circumcised boys will feel as they grow older, is a result of too much skin being taken off by the MD.

Not something you would have any control over.... better just to leave well-enough alone. Your son is the best person to make such a decision about his body. You would never be able to forgive yourself if you allowed some doctor to 'accidentally' destroy the integrity of your child's beautiful body. Baby girls are not born needing emergeny corrective surgery on their vagina, and neither are boys. It's a huge money making business built on lies and deceit. Protect your son from it.
post #52 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by armychicmkm View Post
No reason for not wanting to go with him on this. Just never considered it so I figured I should get acquainted with the issue as it's important to him. His reasoning is a lack of feeling around the scar tissue.

Thanks for the links!
Welcome! Sensitivity is a very important consideration. Your baby will have much more fun (as an adult) if he is kept intact. An informative study here:
http://www.nocirc.org/touch-test/bju_6685.pdf (a .pdf format)

The conclusion:

Quote:
The glans of the circumcised penis is less
sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the
uncircumcised penis. The transitional region
from the external to the internal prepuce
is the most sensitive region of the
uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than
the most sensitive region of the circumcised
penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive
parts of the penis.
The pro-circ people claim that the extra sensitivity is a bad thing, that it will cause premature ejaculation (a common problem in circumcised men) This is not true, an intact man can enjoy longer, more intimate, more enjoyable sex with his partner. And women appreciate it too.

By the way, many men who are unhappy with their circumcisions have been able to undo the keratinization of the glands (dryness causing lack of sensitivity) with foreskin restoration. It won't fix the 10,000+ nerve endings removed, but it can reverse the dryness, allowing them to feel more whole. Something for your husband to think about.
post #53 of 67
Thread Starter 
Thanks!

I haven't read a lot of the regrets posts - just a few random ones from random pages. My husband really wishes he wasn't circumcised although he knows his parents had no choice because of the hospital he was born in. Raised in this country a very large percentage of us never even think about circumcising - it is just something that's done. I always just assumed there was a good reason for it. If DH wasn't so opposed to it I probably never would have looked any deeper into it.
post #54 of 67
Hey, you are making a great choice when it comes to not circing. I am an intact guy, I would know. I posted not to long about this; so please feel free to read my thread. I am a little curious though and if this is too personal don't bother answering. Why is your husband so anti-circ? Did he research it a lot or what is something personal. The reason I'm asking is because most people either don't have an opinion or just believe the common myths until they actually look into it. I do have a friend who is circed. and is really pissed about it. He feels that he was robbed or something. I think it's all because he did a couple of sports and happened to see in the locker room other intact guys (this just totally kills the locker room argument). This made him look into the circ. topic, and now I'm pretty sure he is restoring. I have not talked to him much about it; so, I don't fully know. It's an akward subject, lol.
post #55 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by perspective View Post
Thats the problem, you dont realize your doing it. You think natural is a better choice for boys, pro-circers think modified is better. While I think it does not matter what either group thinks, the choice and the right should be the males alone.
See, I think it does matter. Yes I do think the notion that the natural, intact penis is superior is central to this issue. And the nice thing is it doesn't advocate doing anything to anyone. The benefit of being able to choose later is a nice byproduct. But that in and of itself is a pro-circ notion, that so many men would be interested and desirous of doing so.

Perspective, I'll discuss this all day with you by pm if you choose, but I don't see any further point in "arguing" like this. We are all on the same team here.
post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by armychicmkm View Post
I must concede to the "no pros" part everybody has said. Even in other searches I have found very little to support it (religious beliefs).
And that is the thing. The whole train of benefits is really a flimsy house of cards and it doesn't take too much digging to realize it. And that is the most frustrating part the information is there if you choose to look and think about it critically. Your son is lucky to have such thoughtful parents. Hope you'll stick around once in a while after researching, perhaps you'll be able to help others.
post #57 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bm31 View Post
See, I think it does matter. Yes I do think the notion that the natural, intact penis is superior is central to this issue. And the nice thing is it doesn't advocate doing anything to anyone. The benefit of being able to choose later is a nice byproduct. But that in and of itself is a pro-circ notion, that so many men would be interested and desirous of doing so.
I completely agree. I wouldn't expect my sons to want to cut off their foreskins anymore than their arms. I just don't think in pro-circ terms.
post #58 of 67
I think the confusion here is in what is not being stated explicitely. There are several ways to judge which is better. Personal preference, function, naturalness, etc.

Of course an individual may feel that cut is better for him, or even others. And using just personal preference, that is valid.

On the other hand, a person may argue that a penis with a foreskin functions better, and that is superior to a circ'd penis. And using that criteria, that is valid.

It is all in how you define the way you will measure which is "better" or "superior"

Regards
post #59 of 67
Perhaps a more appropriate word to use here would be "incomplete." Circumcision leaves the penis with something missing. It takes away what was intended to be there. It is minus a functioning part. It is not whole. Thus, a circumcised penis is incomplete.

"Inferior" is a word that implies some degree of personal preference. Since we are generally speaking of infants, it isn't a good word to use. Infants rarely have opinions based purely on aesthetics. What a 25 year old man chooses to do with his penis is his business. The key phrase there is "chooses to do."

A infant cannot choose. He is powerless. If he later finds his penis unattractive (or whatever other unfathomable reason he decides upon) and wishes to have it cosmetically altered, that is the man's choice, like a nose job or pectoral implants.
post #60 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisdude23 View Post
Hey, you are making a great choice when it comes to not circing. I am an intact guy, I would know. I posted not to long about this; so please feel free to read my thread. I am a little curious though and if this is too personal don't bother answering. Why is your husband so anti-circ? Did he research it a lot or what is something personal. The reason I'm asking is because most people either don't have an opinion or just believe the common myths until they actually look into it. I do have a friend who is circed. and is really pissed about it. He feels that he was robbed or something. I think it's all because he did a couple of sports and happened to see in the locker room other intact guys (this just totally kills the locker room argument). This made him look into the circ. topic, and now I'm pretty sure he is restoring. I have not talked to him much about it; so, I don't fully know. It's an akward subject, lol.
His big reason that he gave me was lack of feeling. He feels when the doctor's cut away the foreskin they botched the job a little bit and as a result he has very little feeling. He also is completely opposed to sending anybody through the procedure without anesthesia let alone a newborn. His last big point was that it should not be a decision made by parents but by the child himself. I know he has also always believed that there are some medical benefits and cleanliness benefits but to him they never outweighed the bad parts.
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