"It hurts the environment more to recycle..."

[MrsMike]

Over the past few months the same statement has come up in conversations with friends about recycling. I keep getting arguments that recycling is worse on the environment than making new cans, plastic, paper, etc. Does anyone have a link or two that explains or disputes this?

[thixle]

No links...
but, I have the ammo, locally, that ALL of the garbage in my area "taken to the dump" is then loaded on a barge and sent down the Mississippi River, where it hits open ocean... and dumps it somewhere. The landfill has been full for over 10 years now.
I'd rather my crap get turned into something else than end up in the ocean.
And it works great for blanket statements like the one you posted

[cristeen]

I don't have any links, although I'm sure someone else will. The argument is not entirely accurate, though. Essentially it uses the same or more energy to recycle than it does to make new. But you still have to take into consideration landfill usage. If your only argument is energy usage, then yes, don't recycle. But overall environmental damage must also take into consideration the millions of tons of additional garbage that would wind up in the landfills each year.

[momof_3_boys]

In the short run that may be true. (But I doubt it...)

But in the long run, when you take into consideration the space needed to store waste, the waste being dumped in the ocean polluting the water, and the animals who wind up dying by eating garbage or being trapped in it- I'd say it's dangerous and just plain irresponsible not to recycle.

[Sadystar]

This article from January´s NG magazine should help. The print magazine had a nice diagram showing energy saved when the maximum percentage of recycled material was used per resource. Sadly the web article does not, but I´ll try to give you the figures clearly:

Each of these figures represents the energy saved in the US in millions of Btu per ton. If it helps to get a more better grasp of this, multiply each of the figures (without the millions!) by 8 and this tells you the equivalent in gallons of gasoline. And then remind your friends that demand pushes up the price of gas, so the more gas saved the better off they´ll be

Metals:
Aluminium cans 206 (yep thats 1648 gallons of gas SAVED per ton)
Copper wire 83
Steel cans 20

Plastics:
LDPE (shrink-wrap, garbage bags etc) 56
PET, PETE (drinks bottles, microwave food trays) 53
HDPE (milk, shampoo, household cleaner bottles, grocery bags) 51

Glass 2 (not very high but at least its not a negative as your friends claim)

Paper:
Corrugated cardboard 15
Magazines 1
Newspaper 16
Phone books 11
Office paper10

PCs 43
Carpet 106

Moreover, all of this stuff is finite. If we don´t recycle it it WILL run out and who really thinks that landfill is desirable?

HTH, Sadystar

[littlelessons]

Theoretically you could argue that recycling is bad for the environment (using resources, energy to reprocess items that are already in existence), and the ideal answer would be to reducce production/use of the items in the first place, BUT as it stands, the items are already out there.

We should first try to find a way to reuse the eco-friendly items as we can. That's why the next step after reduce is reuse and then recycle.

[aprons_and_acorns]

Interesting article, Sadystar. Thanks for the link.

[DevaMajka]

I did look this up actually in response to my mom using that same argument for not recycling.
Let's see...what did I google for...maybe recycling myths

http://www.ecoworld.com/home/articles2.cfm?tid=340
http://www.edf.org/documents/611_ACF17F.htm

two VERY opposing articles, but it gives you an idea where that "recycling is bad for the environment" idea is coming from.

Reader's Digest has an article in a recent issue about green things to do, and it said that recycling (especially glass and something else I don't remember right off) wasn't worth worrying about.

Ahhh...here's the first one I found. The Five Most Dangerous Myths About RecyclingMy mom was saying that recycling is more expensive than simply collecting trash. This is true when there isn't much participation in recycling, but not necessarily true in communities with a lot of participation.

[friendtoall]

There's probably a reason recycle is the third "R", after reduce and reuse. I can't think of any negative impacts of the first two.

[EnviroBecca]

http://www.recycling-revolution.com/...ing-facts.html
PDF from U.S. Environmental Protection Agency with handy bar-graph of energy savings from recycling

In some situations, CURBSIDE COLLECTION of recyclables wastes so much energy that it negates the energy savings from recycling. However, there are still other aspects of making new stuff that hurt the environment more than recycling does: mining, oil drilling, clear-cutting, landfills, incinerator emissions, etc.

Another important point is that some materials are more efficient to recycle than others. Recycling office paper, for example, takes a lot of energy and water and nasty chemicals. But aluminum recycling is very efficient. People who say, "Recycling is bad for the environment," may have read/heard something about paper recycling and thought it meant all recycling.

Sadystar wrote:

Moreover, all of this stuff is finite. If we don´t recycle it it WILL run out

Careful with that argument! Some things we recycle are made of finite resources: metals and petroleum. Others are not: paper is made from trees; glass is made from sand. If somebody is talking about paper recycling, and you start saying, "But we have to conserve our resources or they'll run out!!" they'll just laugh at you and say, "We can grow more trees, dummy!" and they won't pay attention to whatever else you say. : So, the thing to say is, "Tree farms are not the same as forests. Forests have a lot of other functions besides providing wood for paper. They provide habitat for animals, and they have a variety of tree species, which prevents pests and tree diseases from having much impact, whereas tree farms have to spray chemicals to prevent those problems."

[Materfamilias]

Give them a copy of GarbageLand: On the Secret Trail of Trash by Elizabeth Royte. SCARY

[snozzberry]

You can find statistics to support just about any argument! Also, stats don't always convince someone to change their minds if they're starting out on the opposite side. The stats have to fit their framework of values.

So I think it's more effective to get away from the stats and start talking about values in conversations like that. For example: "I'm not sure that's the case, from what I've read..." And then tell a personal story about why recycling is important to me. If you've visited a landfill and it had an impact on you, that would be a good story to tell--complete with vivid imagery and concrete details. Or if you know someone who's lived near a landfill and you can tell a story about how that's affected their life. That story a previous poster told about the trash getting dumped in the ocean is really good too.

But when you tell a story, people's intellectual defenses come down and they get lost in the narrative, giving you a chance to make a point before they realize what you've done! Kind of like a fairy tale but for adults.

[mags]

Let me guess. The ppl who pick this type of argument with you are probably the same ones who also tell you that cloth diapering is bad for the environment, due to the water and electricity usage. I got the, "cloth diapering is bad for the environment" talk by a lot of ppl, which struck me as very bizarre. Usually, they are also the same ppl who are driving the biggest SUV they can get and have no regard to the environment.

[simple living mama]

Originally Posted by littlelessons

We should first try to find a way to reuse the eco-friendly items as we can. That's why the next step after reduce is reuse and then recycle.

I'm making a bumper sticker for my car that says reduce, reuse, recycle and refuse!

[simple living mama]

Originally Posted by mags

Usually, they are also the same ppl who are driving the biggest SUV they can get and have no regard to the environment.

Not to change subject but that also reminds me of folks that do the big American sticker thing on the car and then buy at the big box stores that don't sell anything from America. Weird logic.

[mags]

Originally Posted by simple living mama

Not to change subject but that also reminds me of folks that do the big American sticker thing on the car and then buy at the big box stores that don't sell anything from America. Weird logic.

Lol, my DH and I laugh about that one a lot too. We live in a town that has a GM plant and a steel plant, two of the highest employers in this region. We deal with that kind of mentality a LOT in our area. Those stickers are a dime a dozen here, in fact there are MORE ppl with those stickers, than ppl w/o those stickers, and don't get me started on the # of GWB lover stickers I see. The area that we live in, is mostly blue collar, with strong support for the steel and auto unions with a lot of the, "buy american" mentality (cars). It has always struck us as just plain weird how the the same ppl will not shop anywhere except for walmart and $ stores, in which everything is plastic crap made in china. In fact, the town that we live in, is one of those towns that bent over backwards to allow walmart to open, not just one, but TWO super centers, building new roads, etc. JUST for the wonderful walmart to grace us with their presence :. In fact, our area is so backwards, that the organic selection at our grocery stores is actually getting worse, not better!. The last time I told my DH to pick up some organic frozen veggies on the way home from work, he searched high and low and finally asked an employee and they said that a couple wks ago they had decided not to carry anymore organic frozen goods! Only in this area would something like that happen. It's an extremely uncrunchy area if you couldn't already tell and a frustrating place to live at.

[Neth Naneth]

Interesting articles posted here. I have to admit I didn't know that this was even an issue, . Excellent points made about the bigger picture and things that could be recycled ending up in landfills and such.

[prana]

Yeah, I've heard it before. I smile and walk away. People that have statements like above really aren't wanting information or a discussion, they want an argument that they can win.

[simple living mama]

Originally Posted by mags

In fact, the town that we live in, is one of those towns that bent over backwards to allow walmart to open, not just one, but TWO super centers, building new roads, etc. JUST for the wonderful walmart to grace us with their presence :.

Damn mags, that sounds pretty bad. I think it's time to look for a new town. Do you have roots there and good jobs? No organic frozen fruits? No. you must be forced to eat pestiside frozon fruit !!! Or grow your own trees. Man, that just stinks.

[NettleTea]

Originally Posted by mags

In fact, our area is so backwards, that the organic selection at our grocery stores is actually getting worse, not better!. The last time I told my DH to pick up some organic frozen veggies on the way home from work, he searched high and low and finally asked an employee and they said that a couple wks ago they had decided not to carry anymore organic frozen goods! Only in this area would something like that happen. It's an extremely uncrunchy area if you couldn't already tell and a frustrating place to live at.

Sounds like something that would go on where we live. Ugh.