"It hurts the environment more to recycle..." - Page 2

[jrabbit]

<sigh> I just spent the last 6 days without power, and I did a lot of soul-searching, cleaning, purging, and sitting in the dark. I think I'm the ONLY person in Houston who didn't load up my trash can. When I emptied my fridge/freezer, we threw away a little fish & shrimp (yes, we eat fish) - I did "discard" a few things, but they were composted and recycled, NOT trashed. During our loss of power, we did not use a single disposable item, I washed dishes by hand, and we ate "real" food. We used bathtub water to flush the toilet, and we had 50+ gallons of fresh water stored up before the storm, so we didn't "buy" water, either. We borrowed a generator for 2 hours a day to keep our upright freezer from completely melting (we packed all the unneeded refrigerated food into it within the first 12 hours, so it stayed cold enough not to spoil). I cleaned with vinegar & hydrogen peroxide, so that we didn't waste water. I filled one sink up with water for washing hands, and another with clean water for rinsing faces. We lived in swimsuits so we didn't make a lot of dirty laundry. My kids didn't DIE from lack of tv.

sorry for the rambling. I am just so frustrated from watching mainstream USA throwing bag after bag after bag from their fridges out to trash .... and running generators 24 hours a day.

[Jojo F.]

Even seen first hand, the trash companies that pick up the recyclables do infact pick them up BUT they do not get recycled, they get tossed with the rest of the trash and go straight to the landfill. It's really frustrating to know that some, if not most, of the recyclables get thrown away with the rest of the trash.

In my eyes, that's all the more reason to reduce and reuse FIRST and foremost.

jrabbit- I think you need a for all of the hard work you are doing right now in your time of need with the storm. I hope you all get everything back in working order soon!

[Montana Mom]

I would imagine you are right. I am from Houston and its was bad in the 80's, I am sure much moreso now.

[Montana Mom]

How about you turn it back on them, and say "What makes you say such a silly thing?"

See what they have to say.

[llamalluv]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

Sadystar wrote:Careful with that argument! Some things we recycle are made of finite resources: metals and petroleum. Others are not: paper is made from trees; glass is made from sand. If somebody is talking about paper recycling, and you start saying, "But we have to conserve our resources or they'll run out!!" they'll just laugh at you and say, "We can grow more trees, dummy!" and they won't pay attention to whatever else you say. :

So you believe that we have an infinite and never ending supply of sand on earth? But not of metal?

[Toolip]

Originally Posted by MrsMike

Over the past few months the same statement has come up in conversations with friends about recycling. I keep getting arguments that recycling is worse on the environment than making new cans, plastic, paper, etc. Does anyone have a link or two that explains or disputes this?

It's a totally bogus argument. I can't believe people say that.

For one thing, it takes 95% LESS energy to recycle aluminum than it does to make a can from raw materials.

Here are a few links that have "fun facts," I'm not sure if you're looking for more in depth info... I only have books with that, I don't know where to find it online but it is probably out there.

Recycling Trivia
Recycling Aluminum
Energy Kids



That being said, I don't think that recycling is a simple issue that fits cleanly into a "good" or "bad" category.

Obviously (I hope), reducing and reusing are FAR better than recycling. Recycling is only better than the landfill and even then there are exceptions.

For one, not everything should be recycled. One example is pizza boxes. If a greasy pizza box gets in with the rest of the cardboard it can contaminate the whole batch and send it to the landfill.

There are also concerns with plastics that are said to be recycled being sent overseas and dumped in developing countries.

I also worry about the "justification" that it gives people to keep consuming with the excuse that they will recycle it so it's ok.


I hope that if anyone ever made the argument in the OP to me that I would be prepared to defend. That sounds outrageous.

[Toolip]

Originally Posted by jrabbit

<sigh> I just spent the last 6 days without power, and I did a lot of soul-searching, cleaning, purging, and sitting in the dark. I think I'm the ONLY person in Houston who didn't load up my trash can. When I emptied my fridge/freezer, we threw away a little fish & shrimp (yes, we eat fish) - I did "discard" a few things, but they were composted and recycled, NOT trashed. During our loss of power, we did not use a single disposable item, I washed dishes by hand, and we ate "real" food. We used bathtub water to flush the toilet, and we had 50+ gallons of fresh water stored up before the storm, so we didn't "buy" water, either. We borrowed a generator for 2 hours a day to keep our upright freezer from completely melting (we packed all the unneeded refrigerated food into it within the first 12 hours, so it stayed cold enough not to spoil). I cleaned with vinegar & hydrogen peroxide, so that we didn't waste water. I filled one sink up with water for washing hands, and another with clean water for rinsing faces. We lived in swimsuits so we didn't make a lot of dirty laundry. My kids didn't DIE from lack of tv.

sorry for the rambling. I am just so frustrated from watching mainstream USA throwing bag after bag after bag from their fridges out to trash .... and running generators 24 hours a day.

I started to delete part of your post is the quote to not be redundant but it was all so good, I couldn't! I just bolded the best parts

I just wanted to say bravo to you

There is something about extreme (and even not so extreme) situations that make people feel justified in being wasteful and while I may be able to understand the convenience, the waste in the outcome fills the dumps just like any other garbage.

Big thumbs-up to you

[Toolip]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

Sadystar wrote:Careful with that argument! Some things we recycle are made of finite resources: metals and petroleum. Others are not: paper is made from trees; glass is made from sand. If somebody is talking about paper recycling, and you start saying, "But we have to conserve our resources or they'll run out!!" they'll just laugh at you and say, "We can grow more trees, dummy!" and they won't pay attention to whatever else you say. : So, the thing to say is, "Tree farms are not the same as forests. Forests have a lot of other functions besides providing wood for paper. They provide habitat for animals, and they have a variety of tree species, which prevents pests and tree diseases from having much impact, whereas tree farms have to spray chemicals to prevent those problems."

I always try to point out that trees may be renewable, but in whose lifetime?

We absolutely have the potential to wipe out trees, maybe not all the trees in the world, but certainly individual species and in certain regions.

I think that the "renewable" argument often gets skewed :

[jrabbit]

thanks, toolip - I'm still in mental recovery from this event. It's overwhelming on a "normal" day to watch people's wasteful habits, but this was appalling. It's not like we had anything "better" to do!

I recognize that certain situations might have changed my behavior (i.e., if we had evacuated, I think I would have been less inclined to compost everything, but I would be damned if I'd thrown "all" of the recycling in the garbage, even then - or if the water had been out for longer, I might have used paper plates, but I'm not even sure about that). I also recognize that many people in Galveston don't have a choice in how they respond. But, what it's showing me is how EASY it is to make wasteful choices in an emergency when that's your normal frame of reference.

I think that this whole argument about doing more harm by recycling is appalling - it's just an excuse to justify continuing the wasteful habits. So many people think they can't make a difference, so why bother doing anything? My FIL actually got into an argument with me a month or so ago about Sigg bottles, implying that the notion of reusing a bottle was somehow more wasteful because it takes more energy to make one aluminum bottle than one plastic bottle - and besides, they'll EVENTUALLY figure out how to "do" something practical with all the plastic bottles, so let's just wait. He's a petroleum engineer (or something), and he honestly doesn't see any problem with trashing it all. Like someday in the future, someone will be grateful that we created mountains of landfills because "they" will be able to make energy out of our trash or something.

rambling again - pregnant and tired
--janis

p.s. my in-laws live in the outer suburbs of Houston, lost power for a few hours, I suppose. They resorted to using disposable cups, etc. They *HAVE* a dishwasher!!!!!!! I don't get it. They also commented on watching us on the news a few weeks ago, when my dd's & I were interviewed about recycling. They have curbside recycling. Guess what? They don't recycle anything, not even aluminum cans.

[Savoir Faire]

There's an interesting Penn & Teller "Bullshit" show on this subject. Might want to look for the link on You Tube.

[jrabbit]

I've watched parts 1 & 2, now. ick. Yes, if you pick apart recycling at its very core, it uses energy & costs money. Is that a reason NOT to do it? Just like all types of industry, it probably won't be cost effective in the beginning, until it becomes more prevalent. And that's a cycle.

I'm looking at it all from the point of view of reducing my individual footprint, and hopefully encouraging others to do so, as well. The less waste that we produce (be it for recycling OR trash), the better off we are. Now, and in the future.

--janis

[be11ydancer]

I have very mixed feelings about recycling. It seems that recycling metals like aluminum and such would be more beneficial than plastics, paper, etc. And people like to recycle because it makes them feel good and proactive and no one wants to be told that all their recycling efforts were all done in vain. But reducing and reusing are far more beneficial, IMO, than recycling. Reducing the stuff we buy would eventually reduce the amount of crap being produced in the first place, especially if everyone made more of an effort to do so. Than reusing and repurposing items is great - buying clothes from garage sales, thrift stores, and making do with what you have is all wonderful. Buying used cars instead of new.... etc. Never buying disposable anything, composting food waste, etc. I'm convinced that everything we consumers could possibly ever need already exists. Thank goodness for freecycle!

In our community, we have weekly recycling pick up but it doesn't appear that a lot of people use it. Regardless of how many actually use it, the big gas guzzling truck still travels every street picking it up, and this wastes a lot of gas. We also don't have the option of opting out of recycling services - we are all charged for it on our water bill regardless of if we use it or not. This rubs me the wrong way because I don't think anyone, especially on such a local level, should force me to pay for the service if I choose not to use it.

BTW, if anyone has some ideas on collecting cans without attracting roaches, I'm all ears! Aluminum goes for several dollars a pound right now but in our old house, we collected about four bags of cans and ended up with a huge roach problem because of it. Any ideas on keeping it roach proof?

[jrabbit]

do you rinse out the cans first? are they dry?
roaches are intrigued by moisture, just as much as food. We keep our recycling outside primarily, and I've never seen a roach scurry away. We use the city's biweekly recycling pickup for most things, but we take the bottles to a drop-off every couple months.

[be11ydancer]

The cans are mostly picked up along the roadside or in parking lots or ditches so there's no telling what's already in them. Sometimes, you don't want to handle them to much just in case they're ant-infested, kwim? Maybe if I stored them on the back corner of the back yard, we wouldn't have much of a problem. The idea of handling them (like rinsing them) beyond picking them up and putting them in a bag gives me the willies.

BUT, if four bags full of cans can bring in as much as $30, I guess I'll keep with picking them up. But if I see one tiny roach in my house, all bets are off.

[jrabbit]

I totally agree! I won't rinse cans that I find in the easement. Put them in a different corner of your yard, not up next to the house or the garage.

[EnviroBecca]

So you believe that we have an infinite and never ending supply of sand on earth? But not of metal?

Sand is not infinite (nor is the supply of trees) but new sand does get created at a fairly rapid pace as shells and rocks break down. The supply of metal is much more limited; once you mine it out, it's gone for many generations.

There's an interesting Penn & Teller "Bullshit" show on this subject.

I've seen it, and it is itself about 75% bullshit. To cite just one example, they pull the logical trick I mentioned above: citing the inefficiency of PAPER recycling as an argument against recycling ANYTHING. Oh, and I have to mention just one more thing: They have a guy from an environmental group listing the risks of landfill leachate, and they cut him off practically in midsentence to show a landfill industry rep saying, "It's VERY safe," in a condescending tone and providing absolutely no supporting facts, and they treat that like the last word on the subject.