ds is ashamed because he's afraid to fight....

[ivy]

I'm asking you dads about this one, because I think this is a real issue for boys- and I've never been a boy. Dh and I are kinda stumped.

My 9 year old ds thinks he has to be tough. In a situation recently, when his cousin was punching him and generally bullying him, he didn't leave, or tell him he wouldn't play with him- he just stayed there and pretend it didn't bother him. We talked about it for a long time, and it seemed what bothered him most about it was that he didn't fight back. Especially since his cousin is smaller than him (same age though). He wanted to hit his cousin, but was afraid he's just get hit harder. He's been in similar situations before. The few times he ended-up fighting, he got hurt. I don't want him to fight, but I also don't want him to feel he has to put-up with a bully just to prove he's not a wimp. I told him there was no shame in saying he wasn't going to hang out with a jerk and walking away. Dh said the same. My poor ds is so upset. Dh suggested martail arts classes just so he could feel he was able to defend himself if he had to- but he doesn't want to take them. How do we help him have the self confidence to understand that bullying isn't any reflection on him and that you are not weak if you don't beat-up people?

[ivy]

Yeah- I see your point. I can remember when my very small brother threw the the neighborhood bully over his shoulder after months of bullying. Judo paid off! Though, what I meant by ds having the confidence to walk away is that in a few cases, and this case in particular- he put up with it when he didn't have to. He could've gone and done something else with one of his other cousins (who are nice to him and who he likes a lot more). My nephew actually likes my son and really wants to play with him- but he always needs to dominate. If ds had said he didn't feel like hanging with a jerk and left- my nephew would've quit it. It's like he's just seeing how far he can go. Ds thought it was cowardly to not play with bully nephew. I'm happy to get ds in martial arts classes so he can be strong- but there will always be someone stronger. I want to know how to get him to understand that some people aren't worth his time - that rejecting and avioding jerks is not the same as being a coward.

[papabliss]

While I believe Yammer’s suggestions to be disheartening and counterproductive, he is probably right. To expect a youngster to derive great inner strength through the overcoming of his natural tendencies to fight is to expect his cognative development to extend beyond his years. Additionally, if he had the ability to intrinsically increase his self-esteem through non-violence, he would be a budding Gandhi or MLK. Moral reasoning and self-control are life-long pursuits, not merely the stuff of parental counsel.

However, my suggestion is to set up the environment for success. Maybe if he just looked with disgust at his cousin and said grow-up and stop hitting people like a baby. Then walked away. The insult might be enough to lessen his personal feelings of being a coward. He would have also avoided a physical confrontation plus changed the nature of the interaction.

Just a thought.

Good luck.

[Dan Frank]

As childhood wasnt so long ago for me, and I was an oft-picked target of bullies before homeschool, I feel I must contribute.

First, let me say that I am a pacifist. Aside from my childhood karate phase (which just about every '90s kid I know had), the only martial art I have studied is Aikido (an art ranging from the almost completely pacifistic, to the surprisingly brutal. I study the former).

What yammer said about Bully motives is dead-on. In my youth I would occasionally lash out, not just ineptly but half-heartedly. Never helped. What did help was dissociating myself from the bullies. Several years later, one of them contacted me to apologize. We all got together and hung out for a day... very strange experience.

I definitely think dissociation, or the threat thereof, would be a great help. Getting your kid to do this is the only problem.


Alternately...

I think Papabliss inadvertently suggested an excellent idea in mentioning Ghandi. Perhaps, assuming he is currently ignorant of the subject, you could tell him about Ghandi, maybe show him video clips of nonviolent protesters, etc. May be out of a 9 year old's league, but I figure it's worth a shot. Ghandi, or any of his followers, provide an excellent example of great people who didn't fight back.

Again, he may have a hard time understanding/relating to that one, but only you and he could know.

Best of luck

[Dov]

a former shamed wimp

speaking as a boy who was often picked on and physically beaten routinely by other kids... all three men have had great insights for you. I especially agree with Dan's suggestion about Aikido. I am studying at a traditional dojo very rooted in the pacifist style of the way. The whole idea is that anyone of any shape or size can "keep their center" or cool without having to lash out or become a punching bag. Being a little guy, that's pretty key for me.

Through Aikido I have learned (wish I'd known this twenty-five years ago) to understand that my space, my circle is mine and someone else violating my circle against my will needn't be tolerated. However, I also don't have to go on the offensive whenever that circle is violated by another. I'm learning that, when someone does attack me, I can re-direct the energy of that attack back upon the attacker. Let him deal with the consequences of his violent behavior. I don't have to be violent (per se) to "deal" with him. I hope I'm making sense.

Studying Ghandi is great, but having "body knowledge" or becoming "equipped" to defend your physical space is equally as important. I understood the sensation of being violated all those years when I was beaten up every day, but I had no physical equipment to make that head-knowledge effective until I studied Aikido. I am a pacifist (which takes a lot of chutzpah when surrounded by a culture of violence and violent, immature males) and while I respect the art of other martial arts disciplines, for me, Aikido was the right fit, the right "equipping" that I needed. It goes without saying that my kids will probably end up in the kids classes at the dojo...

www.aikidofaq.com has great info on the art. I can feel your son's frustration... he doesn't need to let that feeling rule his fate. He's got a good head on his shoulders... he noticed and he feels. Give him some body knowledge he can use. The world needs more healthy men who can practice non-violence and peace actively and dynamically.

Dov

[sithlord_kev]

i was the biggest kid in middle school. kids always wanted to fight me, and my mom was always telling me to hit them back and stick up for yourself. i still have regrets for not standing up for myself, even in high school. i guess the way i saw it, and still see it, fighting is dumb unless there is a real reason. like someone is going to really hurt a loved one, or if i was cornered and had no way out. in which case, anything goes. i'd be out to break an arm or whatever. viscious i know, but i never saw that whole macho "punch for punch" kind of thing. but if its continuous bullying, and the kid wont let up, it builds lots of steam and all it takes is one day when it all comes out and someone could even get killed. think columbine. if the parents werent paying attention to their kids' complaints, things might have been different.
maybe find a sport or something he can get into where he can let off steam. get him one of those punching bags that are on the floor.

[Lady Lilya]

I was bullied a bit in elementary school by another girl. One day, on a walking-trip the class took to a local park by the ocean, I found a dead dragonfly. It turned out, the bully was terrified of it. I carried it around for a while. She said some nasty things to me, but kept her distance.

[everettdaddy]

Well, I was kind of the same way, and still to a point.

Growing up my family was very psychical... (My father, uncle, and Grand-father were all jocks.) We Wrestled, played sports.. all of that. However, i never learned how to fight, and i couldn't bring myself to swing on anyone.

About 8 years ago I was jumped by 6 teenagers in a parking, and although I had 15 friends with me, only 3 jumped in to help. I surprised myself though, because i held my own and took the few punches that were dealt upon me.

I think that all of the years of "Just Taking It", might have saved me, because i have many peo0ple in similar situations, and because they stumbled, or were knocked down, they were more damaged, and possibly killed..

There is something psychologically damaging to a bully or group, when they hit you as hard as they can, and you are just standing there staring at them.

I would not worry that much, talk to him, but don't push him in any direction... He will find his own path.

[jcfelt]

I think it might also be a good idea to present/reiterate the idea of "physical strength" versus "strength of character." Anyone can lash out with violence (especially when they have an inherent size/strength advantage) , but it takes a stronger person to simply walk away and avoid the conflict, or deal with it in some other way. This isn't being a wimp - in fact, it's quite the opposite.

[Suprakid1982]

Originally Posted by ivy

I'm asking you dads about this one, because I think this is a real issue for boys- and I've never been a boy. Dh and I are kinda stumped.

My 9 year old ds thinks he has to be tough. In a situation recently, when his cousin was punching him and generally bullying him, he didn't leave, or tell him he wouldn't play with him- he just stayed there and pretend it didn't bother him. We talked about it for a long time, and it seemed what bothered him most about it was that he didn't fight back. Especially since his cousin is smaller than him (same age though). He wanted to hit his cousin, but was afraid he's just get hit harder. He's been in similar situations before. The few times he ended-up fighting, he got hurt. I don't want him to fight, but I also don't want him to feel he has to put-up with a bully just to prove he's not a wimp. I told him there was no shame in saying he wasn't going to hang out with a jerk and walking away. Dh said the same. My poor ds is so upset. Dh suggested martail arts classes just so he could feel he was able to defend himself if he had to- but he doesn't want to take them. How do we help him have the self confidence to understand that bullying isn't any reflection on him and that you are not weak if you don't beat-up people?

i was going to sugesst martial arts classes as well, but not in the aspect of fighting back, becasue in martial arts thats not what you are thgaught you are thaghth to defend your self, i e block, move away etc. pretty much take control of your reactions, which is what the kicks etc. are about. i was his age when i started stopped at 16 i like to say retired cause i got a a big belly now, and feel like some old legendery washed up sports star


my parents put me in it for the same situation as your DS. one thing tho REALLY research the place, in other words if the kids arent havaing fun and they are being drilled, etc., then its not a good place and they arent being thght anythiung pretty much.

[Yoshua]

I wasn't the biggest kid but I wasn't the smallest.

Elementary I pretty much got along with everyone, had friends in all groups and really didn't care what others thought of me.

In Jr High.

I had a mouth on me but I rarely used physical force. I was a jerk to some people and I was a sweetheart to others.

Basically I think I was an average kid trying to find his way in Jr. High.

Because I would stick up for myself verbally to people who were being jerks to me, or my friends it always seemed that someone was trying to pick a fight with me. I typically didn't want to fight anyone for 2 reasons. 1-I saw no point in hurting someone else unless they got me to a breaking point, and 2-I had a brother who was 3 years older than me that I fought with on a daily basis and usually had my ace handed to me. The kids at my level really didn't have any idea how bad a real punch would hurt so I tried to avoid physical confrontations.


However if someone was repeatedly hitting me, slapping me or kicking books out of my hands I showed them why it was a bad idea. I only ever got caught for fighting once but I'd say I got into a fight more than once a year from 7th to 9th grade because of bullies trying to show they were bad asses by picking a fight with someone who wasn't the biggest but wasn't the smallest. I usually won, not always though.


What I learned from my time in Junior High is that there is a time and place for violance and that time and place is always a last resort. If words of placating can't get you out of being picked on, and then threats of violance can't stop it then you only have one last choice to defend yourself. But never throw the first hit.


I don't think it is manly or macho to get into fights, and I hope to teach my kids that. I hope they never have to go through what I did, or what people in worse situations had to growing up. But if they are on the end of being picked on I will make sure they know how to defend themselves when the time is right and also let them know that defending themselves has consequences too.


In your situation I would agree that downplaying what the cousin did as immature would be step one, however if the cousin really is immature he will try to show how macho he is by escalating it so your son would have to be prepared for the next step if it was taken.


My advice may not be the most popular, but we can only give advice from what we have experianced and my experiance says that if you fight a bully physically, win or lose so long as it isn't widely publisized, the bully USUALLY finds someone else to pick on because it isn't worth the effort of fighting you a second time.



All that being said, my children had better never let me find out that they, or their friends are on the bullying end of the dispute. And I hope to teach my kids that if their friends are bullying someone they have a voice and should speak up and tell their friends to leave the poor kids alone.

[papapoochie]

My 4 yo was playing w/a neighbor aged 6. This 6 yo is very wild. I stepped away and this 6 yo started hitting my son on the hand w/a plastic hammer. My son said, "Stop hitting me Sam, that's rude" and ran away. He didn't cry or anything, just hauled away.

My wife communicated this to me later as I was in Sam's yard talking w/his parents when this occurred.

Anyway, I think all kids have to learn to handle these situations. When I was a kid my father taught my brother, and then my brother taught me to box. So, I would box if cornered. My son runs. Both are okay.

[joejoe]

there is no shame in fighting when someone else provokes it. martial arts classes are a good idea but wrestling is a better one. what he needs to learn are takedowns that are forceful and aggressive(the idea is to scare the other guy) but wont hurt someone badly.

in high school i was smaller than everyone else (i was mistaken for a freshman in until a year after i graduated) but i was feared by the bullies (i was known to beat up bullies which, call it a hero complex but i cant stand bullies). even though i was smaller i was strong (not built just wiry) and could and would stand up to guys three times my size. the last real fight i was in i was about 16 and dropped the Quarter Back of the football team with two fingers. I was always more interested in making the bullies afraid of me than actually hurting them.

[daddymoe]

Originally Posted by joejoe

there is no shame in fighting when someone else provokes it. martial arts classes are a good idea but wrestling is a better one. what he needs to learn are takedowns that are forceful and aggressive(the idea is to scare the other guy) but wont hurt someone badly.

in high school i was smaller than everyone else (i was mistaken for a freshman in until a year after i graduated) but i was feared by the bullies (i was known to beat up bullies which, call it a hero complex but i cant stand bullies). even though i was smaller i was strong (not built just wiry) and could and would stand up to guys three times my size. the last real fight i was in i was about 16 and dropped the Quarter Back of the football team with two fingers. I was always more interested in making the bullies afraid of me than actually hurting them.

(just to chime in here with some specific, self defense related advice: take downs are not always the best course of action - they're great to know, but not necessarily great for a public confrontation. Often times public confrontations involve groups of people and are rarely just one on one, in the event that you take someone to the ground your quite libel to get kicked and injured from other people involved who are not on the ground.).

I would encourage self defense classes. I'm certainly not an aggressor but wouldn't say that I'm a complete and total pacifist, I think that there are times when one needs to learn to defend oneself and it's not a bad idea for a child (boy or girl that is) to feel confident in that fact and not to have to be afraid of someone bigger or meaner or more aggressive. Knowing how to defend yourself is also a way to end a fight quickly and prevent a prolonged encounter which could easily lead to greater injuries to both parties.

I absolutely plan on teaching my children self defense as soon as they are ready. It's something that one hopes not to have to ever use, but is darn sure glad about knowing it should the situation ever arise.

[dadinblue]

I know this is an old topic, but I'm just weeding my way through this.

I was bullied until a growth spurt put me 6" above the bullies over the summer. The bullying started again and ended as I socked the lead bully in the nose.

There is no shame in fighting when you get provoked/cornered/defending someone weaker than you. Some people are sheep, others are wolves who prey on the sheep and then there are the sheepdogs who protect the flock. These sheepdogs are who we see as police officers, EMS, FD etc. They are the ones running TOWARDS the problem, while everyone is running AWAY from it screaming "Someone DO something..."

So it's really up to you -- what sort of child do you want to raise? One who avoids conflict and leaves it up to others to sort out, or one who takes care of business?