When does religious upbringing cross over to abuse? - Page 7

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by magstphil

You lost me, Kim.

But, then again, I'm half asleep. What are you saying exactly? I meant everyone's experiences are relative. Like for one person being told masturbation is a sin tares them up for life whereas for another it means something else. Hopefully I am making some sense here....

It could have been me half asleep.

But I was reading the "moral relativity" argument into it. Like, hmm, according to this culture X is OK, although we in our culture think it is terrible, we can't say that X is necessarily immoral. It is relative, what might be wrong for us might be fine for them.

Still not sure if I am explaining it right.

Ok it just took me a minute but I found the post (I almost thought I had accidently credited a phrase to you). OK, here:

Well this is all well and good in your life because it is your opinion and personal beliefs but there are those of us who don't feel this way. We should be allowed our faith and our practices in peace, should we not? Force is a whole other issue. If it is forced then yes something should be done but in general it's a "to each their own" thing.

Now I hear people say "oh but it does so much inner harm" ok well yes to some maybe but so does teaching it's A OK. What if a child is taught this and grows up to believe that it's not? What sort of inner turmoil awaits him/her then?

There just isn't a 100% right or wrong answer with that. It's all so relative.

I just think that there are points where things are right or wrong and I don't think it is all relative.

Baggage-ing a child with that kind of guilt, and fear, I guess I just don't think it is ever right.

I don't want my kids to be crazy sexually active before they are ready, but I would only warn them with real reasons. This is what can happen (disease, pregnancy, regret, etc). I mean those are actual things. And I know that people really believe their god beliefs, the feel very real to people. I guess I will never get anywhere with this because there is no way you would understand my POV (general you, the religious you), and I could never understand yours.

But masturbation, a human being touching their own body in a way that is doing no physical/mental damage that anyone has ever shown to be true (except ONLY in the case of guilt from religious conditioning, not any natural guilt or regret), I can't see how any adult, ANY ADULT EVER, has any right to ask a child questions like that. As Brig has pointed out, take the religion out of the equation, if any adult asked a kid about touching himself? Um???? That is seriously messed up and abusive. Or at least perverted. If I found out my kid's teacher was asking that sort of thing at school??? Or a coach at soccer practice, or the guy next door? I would be so not cool with that. If my husband even asked that, I would be seriously confused unless my kid was ejaculating on his clean work shirts or something.

I don't see any relative area for an adult to ask such a private question of a child. I can not see how it is "all relative"

Hope you don't think I am attacking you, I am just trying to explain the problem I am having with this idea. It is foreign to me. If my dad asked me something like that ever ... : Or anyone, that would have been so exploitive. Even though I wasn't doing any such thing as a kid, still, the asking about it. Oh, my, god. It blows my mind.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by jennica

Masturbation isn't even mentioned in the bible. Not once. If god cared so much about people not masturbating, then maybe instead of going on endlessly with geneologies, he could have thrown in one scripture that said, "thou shalt not touch thy private parts". But, nope, it seems he didn't really care.

[orangebird]

I thought it came from whatever part of the bible promotes "every sperm is sacred", or else monty python has convinced me this is a biblical thing.

But isn't there a story, a guy named Onan? What is the story about that exactly? Is that where the idea comes from or is it somewhere else.

I haven't read the bible for many years, so I am lost. Thank god there is google now. Maybe I need to try that.

[orangebird]

And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him.
And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.
-- Genesis 38: 7-10 (KJV)

from a quick reading, my interpretation is this is an individual case, god wanted onan to impregnate his brother's wife. Am I misinterpreting?

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by orangebird

I thought it came from whatever part of the bible promotes "every sperm is sacred", or else monty python has convinced me this is a biblical thing.

But isn't there a story, a guy named Onan? What is the story about that exactly? Is that where the idea comes from or is it somewhere else.

I haven't read the bible for many years, so I am lost. Thank god there is google now. Maybe I need to try that.

Yep - masturbation for a while there was called Onanism. He "spilled his seed" so as not to impregnate his SIL. (Cultural custom required him to marry her if anything happened to his brother, and something did... but he didn't want to get her pregnant. I'm foggy on the details.) This story has been used to show that it's a sin to masturbate, it has also been used to show that it's a sin to withdraw to avoid conception.

I was raised in a "masturbation is sin" church, and I was told as a very young child that it "makes God sad." All kinds of guilt and shame and horrible fascination... I don't know if I'd call that abuse, exactly. But it wasn't wise advice for parents to be following. And asking so many intensely personal questions, harping on it, not letting it go... that's just traumatizing. It's definitely not going to get his mind off masturbating, to have them talking about it all the time!

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by orangebird

It could have been me half asleep.

But I was reading the "moral relativity" argument into it. Like, hmm, according to this culture X is OK, although we in our culture think it is terrible, we can't say that X is necessarily immoral. It is relative, what might be wrong for us might be fine for them.

I think I get it and no that's not what I was saying.

I just think that there are points where things are right or wrong and I don't think it is all relative.

Baggage-ing a child with that kind of guilt, and fear, I guess I just don't think it is ever right.

When it comes to morals I agree that there is no relativity and I disagree with using fear, guilt, etc but I don't think teaching "right and wrong" automatically uses those methods, ykwim?

I don't want my kids to be crazy sexually active before they are ready, but I would only warn them with real reasons. This is what can happen (disease, pregnancy, regret, etc). I mean those are actual things. And I know that people really believe their god beliefs, the feel very real to people. I guess I will never get anywhere with this because there is no way you would understand my POV (general you, the religious you), and I could never understand yours.

re: the bolded- and to some there are more than just that those reasons on the physical plane.
And that's where my talk on relativity comes in. To you it makes no sense to me it makes perfect sense. I'm being as clear as mud, right?

But masturbation, a human being touching their own body in a way that is doing no physical/mental damage that anyone has ever shown to be true (except ONLY in the case of guilt from religious conditioning, not any natural guilt or regret), I can't see how any adult, ANY ADULT EVER, has any right to ask a child questions like that. As Brig has pointed out, take the religion out of the equation, if any adult asked a kid about touching himself? Um???? That is seriously messed up and abusive.

I can see where you are coming from but the fact is that religion is in the equation. If I took my OB being an OB out of the equation then her giving me a pap would be wrong in a lot of ways but clergymen are such for whatever reason. They are "professionals" in their faith, so to speak. If one doesn't subscribe to the beliefs then I could see the violation but if one is faithful and does believe then clergymen aren't just any random person on the street.

If I found out my kid's teacher was asking that sort of thing at school??? Or a coach at soccer practice, or the guy next door? I would be so not cool with that. If my husband even asked that, I would be seriously confused unless my kid was ejaculating on his clean work shirts or something.

I don't see any relative area for an adult to ask such a private question of a child. I can not see how it is "all relative"

Well first what I mean by relative is to some (like myself) this is an integral part of their life it makes up who they are and is positive to them. To them these rules mean something different then they would to someone else (like you). So to me myself masturbating would be damaging to my spirit. To you not so much. Am I making any sense here? My point was that although teaching anti-masturbation can and has hurt some in their live it has done the opposite in another's life.

Hope you don't think I am attacking you,

No, not at all! I have no problem with people disagreeing with me just the manner in which they do it. Not you. You know I love you!

I am just trying to explain the problem I am having with this idea. It is foreign to me. If my dad asked me something like that ever ... : Or anyone, that would have been so exploitive. Even though I wasn't doing any such thing as a kid, still, the asking about it. Oh, my, god. It blows my mind.

I can see that. I've actually been there when I considered myself ex-Mormon. But let me see if I can use an analogy- Mable has had bad eczema and it got infected a few days ago. Since then we have been desperate to get her not to scratch. We have talked with her about it, we've put socks on her hands, I have even stayed up at night to watch her sleep all because her scratching causes some big problems. It breaks my heart to watch her fight the urge and when she cries and ask me to do it. All she can see is that I am being a big meany trying to stop her from doing something she really wants to do and thinks she needs to do. My point is this- parents are put in a position to protect their children. There are some pretty obvious things that we need to protect them from (think running into traffic) but then there are some that we disagree on (meat eating is the first thing that popped into my head for those who think it is extremely unhealthy). I can see the repercussions to Mable scratching her eczema even though she can't. With masturbation there are parents who believe there are repercussions for it in this life and the next. It is their duty as parents to protect their children from this. I just can't fault them for that in and of itself. Now if they are being abusive over it that's a whole different thing. I guess what I am trying to say is it's as important as stopping a child from playing with a knife in some minds. Now what do we do when we feel our child is being a danger to themselves and we can't help? We seek outside help, don't we? It just makes sense to me but on the outside looking in I'm sure it seems odd. It works that way visa versa as well.

[orangebird]

If it is a gentle warning, well sure, whatever, we all bring weird biases into the act of raising children. I was a vegan when I had my first child. And teaching the harm or pain done to the animal to eat it seems in a different class altogether than a hell threat. I know the LDS teaching isn't as bad as the teachings of other churches, so I'm definitely not singling out that church, but if you knew my husband, catholic raised, so scared he honest to god never masterbated until he was almost 18 and a girl did it to him, so he was totally following that letter of the law. He is living a life of hell right now. His father died when my DH was 12, but before that, every night he was told about the hell he was sure to suffer in. He is still feeling tortured by it. And most of the family abandoned him when he married me. My last name alone tipped them off he didn't marry a catholic and to this day there are family members he lies to because he is so afraid of the repercussions of it. This goes way beyond masterbation, but I just feel so sorry for his pain every single day. He went to catholic school, was an altar boy, the works. And every single day is a struggle now. It makes me sad.

[holyhelianthus]

every night he was told about the hell he was sure to suffer in.

That all could have been handled 1,000,000x better than his parents chose to. That's.... *shudders*

If it is a gentle warning, well sure, whatever, we all bring weird biases into the act of raising children.

[jennica]

And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him.
And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.
-- Genesis 38: 7-10 (KJV)

Originally Posted by orangebird

from a quick reading, my interpretation is this is an individual case, god wanted onan to impregnate his brother's wife. Am I misinterpreting?

This is where religions get their no masturbation theory, however, they are misinterpreting the scripture. First, Onan was not masturbating in this scripture, this scripture is about using withdrawal to avoid a pregnancy. Second, the order Onan was given was to impregnate his brothers wife. He disobeyed the order, and THAT was displeasing to god. So, masturbation is never mentioned in the bible, and the "sin" that Onan committed was not masturbation, nor was it the act of withdrawal under normal circumstances, but it was the act of withdrawal when he was given a direct order to impregnate his brothers wife. It is very obvious and straight forward. Masturbation is never once mentioned in the bible, and even if this scripture was referring to masturbation, it would only be wrong for a male since women don't spill their seed anywhere. But that is a moot point, because the scripture isn't even about masturbation at all and has nothing to do with it.

[klg47]

My religion (LDS) doesn't get the no masturbation mandate from the Bible. It is from our belief that sexual relations are to be kept between husband and wife, and ONLY between husband and wife. That means no fornication, no adultery, and no sex with self.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by klg47

My religion (LDS) doesn't get the no masturbation mandate from the Bible. It is from our belief that sexual relations are to be kept between husband and wife, and ONLY between husband and wife. That means no fornication, no adultery, and no sex with self.

: Thank you for clarifying this, Katie.

[MammaB21]

Originally Posted by jennica

This is where religions get their no masturbation theory, however, they are misinterpreting the scripture. First, Onan was not masturbating in this scripture, this scripture is about using withdrawal to avoid a pregnancy. Second, the order Onan was given was to impregnate his brothers wife. He disobeyed the order, and THAT was displeasing to god. So, masturbation is never mentioned in the bible, and the "sin" that Onan committed was not masturbation, nor was it the act of withdrawal under normal circumstances, but it was the act of withdrawal when he was given a direct order to impregnate his brothers wife. It is very obvious and straight forward. Masturbation is never once mentioned in the bible, and even if this scripture was referring to masturbation, it would only be wrong for a male since women don't spill their seed anywhere. But that is a moot point, because the scripture isn't even about masturbation at all and has nothing to do with it.

: I was just coming back on here to post something similar.

Also, if this scripture was taken totally literally. (Meaning, follow this one example even though it wasn't a command ment for all humans), then one would have to believe that it is a sin to ejaculate ANYTIME it is not with the purpose of creating a baby. Um...yeah.......that sucks. I know alot of married folks who by this law would not have had sex at all. (or just once or twice).

[MammaB21]

Originally Posted by klg47

My religion (LDS) doesn't get the no masturbation mandate from the Bible. It is from our belief that sexual relations are to be kept between husband and wife, and ONLY between husband and wife. That means no fornication, no adultery, and no sex with self.

So is it more of a suggestion then a rule? I'm honestly curious, not being snarky. I'd fine it odd to make a deffinate rule, and state that dissobaying it would lead you to hell (or whatever it is LDS believe, I'm not too fermiliar) if it wasn't a direct councel from god. ???

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by MammaB21

So is it more of a suggestion then a rule? I'm honestly curious, not being snarky. I'd fine it odd to make a deffinate rule, and state that dissobaying it would lead you to hell (or whatever it is LDS believe, I'm not too fermiliar) if it wasn't a direct councel from god. ???

No it's a commandment. You won't go to hell but you won't be able to do temple work or hold the Priesthood etc etc here and it will be a blockage on the road to spiritual growth.

ETA- We believe we still have a direct line to God through our modern-day Prophets so we don't just have the Bible and Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants etc- we have up to the minute updates in our belief.

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by jennica

Masturbation is never once mentioned in the bible, and even if this scripture was referring to masturbation, it would only be wrong for a male since women don't spill their seed anywhere.

I'm thinking that there was a passage where Noah was supposedly masturbating - one of his son's walked in on him doing it and was punished for "looking on his nakedness" or something. It never made a lot of sense to me.

[tex.mom]

That sounds abusive to me, and I'm Catholic, so technically masturbation is against our doctrine. However going to confession was nothing like that for us as teens and we were never punished by the church. To me that's the weird part, making a public example. That stuff was totally private for us. In fact I remember thinking our priest must have heard it all, because it seemed like he could hear anything in confession without expressing any shock whatsoever! I also remember in a group Q&A one time (in a very personal, small group retreat setting) a teen boy asking a priest how he kept from masturbating, and he replied that while those urges are normal and everyone has them, he redirects his mental and physical energies into other activities to combat it.

I mean people may think this is all extreme, but I'm just offering the perspective of a totally different approach to the same belief system. I guess just to say that there is another approach and that punishing and ridiculing is, IMO, abusive, even for those who subscribe to those beliefs.

[MammaB21]

Originally Posted by magstphil

No it's a commandment. You won't go to hell but you won't be able to do temple work or hold the Priesthood etc etc here and it will be a blockage on the road to spiritual growth.

ETA- We believe we still have a direct line to God through our modern-day Prophets so we don't just have the Bible and Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants etc- we have up to the minute updates in our belief.

Okay, thanx for clarifying that.

Are we certain this boy was of the same religion, or are we still just assuming?

[MammaB21]

Originally Posted by tex.mom

I mean people may think this is all extreme, but I'm just offering the perspective of a totally different approach to the same belief system. I guess just to say that there is another approach and that punishing and ridiculing is, IMO, abusive, even for those who subscribe to those beliefs.

Wow, this is very well said. I am so glad to here this perspective respresented on this thread.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by MammaB21

Okay, thanx for clarifying that.

Are we certain this boy was of the same religion, or are we still just assuming?

I'm not sure at all.

[klg47]

Originally Posted by Collinsky

I'm thinking that there was a passage where Noah was supposedly masturbating - one of his son's walked in on him doing it and was punished for "looking on his nakedness" or something. It never made a lot of sense to me.

It's funny that you mention this. My son asked me to read about Noah and the Ark last week, and I came across this. It was very puzzling to me, so I looked it up. The way I read it, the son was punished for seeing his father naked. That didn't seem fair to me. According to my Old Testament class manual, put out by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the garment in question was a priesthood garment. Ham took the garment while his father was sleeping and showed it to his brothers. They made a copy for themselves and took the original garment back to their father. Noah cursed Ham for trying to rob him of the priesthood garment. The explanation was much longer than that; that's just the condensed version

Originally Posted by tex.mom

To me that's the weird part, making a public example. That stuff was totally private for us.

In the LDS religion, it is not supposed to be a public example either. However, some things can appear to be public if everyone else is doing them and you are not. For instance, if you are sinning, you are not supposed to take the sacrament. You are supposed to mind your own business while the sacrament is being passed, but surely there are those who look around and check out who is taking it and who isn't. Most people keep their heads down, eyes closed, and think about the Savior and their own sins during the sacrament. Likewise, you might not be able to attend the temple or do other things. Most of the time no one would ever even know. However, I suppose there might be instances where your friends might say "hey, want to go to the temple with us?" and you say "no thanks" and they keep pestering you until they realize maybe you can't go. Or maybe you used to have a certain responsibility every week at church until recently, and they assume you don't have it any more because of sin.

Originally Posted by MammaB21

Are we certain this boy was of the same religion, or are we still just assuming?

We are just assuming, and I think we are way off. Given what the OP said about some of the doctrines of her previous church, I am sure she is not talking about the LDS church. I thought she was at first, but upon further reflection, there are just too many things 'off'. It could be a similar church though, like Arduinna said. Also, we have completely derailed the thread.