As a piano player, this drives me nuts too - I'm always talking to my daughter about her "fifth finger" meaning her pinky and she looks at me like I'm nuts. I also would like to start my daughter on piano, but she's 7 and I don't think it will be such an issue now - younger kids are much more fixed and absolute in their thinking.
My question would be, though, what are you going to call the thumb? (Maybe "thumb"?)
My eldest and youngest both started on stringed instruments (and hence had four fingers and a thumb) quite young and then started piano at age almost-six (where they suddenly developed five-fingered hands). I was somewhat surprised by how little confusion this gave them. It was a lot like learning a second language like Spanish at an early age -- very soon their brains just began to think in Spanish when in a Spanish-speaking environment. When sitting in front of a keyboard with the hands visible above the lap, there are five digits. When fingers are on top of the fingerboard, up near the face, there are four fingers. The message "finger one" automatically starts going to the correct finger no matter what the instrument is.
So my vote would be to tough out the initial confusion and teach conventional piano finger numbers from the start, because you'll probably find the confusion is much less than you expect. It is easy to practice to teach the piano fingers their names. Play a well-learned little ditty on the piano, one hand at a time, and have her say or sing the finger numbers as she plays them. If she makes mistakes just laugh and say "Oops, that was your cello brain answering. Tell it to go take a nap!" Roll a die for each note of a C-major scale, and have her play the next pitch with the finger number that shows up on the die (6 can mean she plays the note with her nose if you want to have some fun). See how fast she can do this. She can time a left hand scale (right hand rolls the die) against a right hand scale (left hand rolling) and see which hand "wins." Roll a 3, play C with finger three, roll a 5, play D with finger five, roll a 6, play E with her nose, etc. etc.
Miranda
Thank you both for your replies! You know, I think Miranda has me sold on toughing it out at first. That makes sense that just like in a Spanish-speaking environment your brain just switches to Spanish (assuming of course you know Spanish), so also happens with piano. The five fingers on the keyboard as opposed to four on a fingerboard, yep, I think her young brain can adapt! At least I hope! :) Thanks for the great ideas!!!
I have a trivial question: Why Concerto for Two Violins in d Minor is in Book 4 and 5? How do student learn this differently?
thanks,
Wow, I haven't been on this thread or on MDC forever! Greencat, the Bach Double has two separate violin parts. The second violin part is in Book 4, and the 1st violin part in book 5. IMO, neither part is necessarily much harder than the other. With the revised edition, I actually think the 2nd violin part might be a bit harder because of all the 2nd position work. Our teacher actually puts half her students on each part so we can play it together at group, so my daughter ended up learning the 1st violin part first, and played that all year, and we've just started the 2nd part.
Also, in my experience, the 2nd violin part is quite difficult for a violinist's level at the end of book 4. They have to do some significant practicing, listening, and skill developing to play it well. By the time they get to the end of Book 5, learning the 1st violin part seems easy, almost like a reward piece.
Stacymom: Thanks for the answer.
And, good to know that you are still on MDC.
Now, back to CD listening : )
Our teachers do this as well, so my dd ended up learning the 1st part last year, and is approaching the end of book 5, and will learn the 2nd part this year. Our studio will be doing this for our group concert, and there are 2 students on each part. Very exciting!
Wow, I haven't been on this thread or on MDC forever! Greencat, the Bach Double has two separate violin parts. The second violin part is in Book 4, and the 1st violin part in book 5. IMO, neither part is necessarily much harder than the other. With the revised edition, I actually think the 2nd violin part might be a bit harder because of all the 2nd position work. Our teacher actually puts half her students on each part so we can play it together at group, so my daughter ended up learning the 1st violin part first, and played that all year, and we've just started the 2nd part.
Also, in my experience, the 2nd violin part is quite difficult for a violinist's level at the end of book 4. They have to do some significant practicing, listening, and skill developing to play it well. By the time they get to the end of Book 5, learning the 1st violin part seems easy, almost like a reward piece.
I just spoke with our teacher, and asked about how does she usually teach the Back Double? It seems she has done different things for different students and situation. In our case, she may give us an option to wait until my DD's best friend to finish the Book 4, and let the two girls play the duet. It could be that my DD to learn both parts or her best friend to learn one part and my DD the other. We don't know yet, but I thought this was exciting : )
greencat
This thread has been quiet all summer. Did anyone go to Institute this summer? I'm getting ready to go for a teacher training course next week, then my husband will drive our kids up and meet me there for their week. I'm really looking forward to it!
The photographer who works at this Institute just sent out an email offering 2009 and 2010 pictures at the original price. I looked through the pages and found my kids. They've grown so much! In 2009 my daughter was in the Pretwinkle class. I had forgotten how serious and CUTE she was up on stage! How is just-turned-7 *so* much more grown up than just-turned-5?
No institute for us this year. Dd is going to a kids' only strings Institute starting TOMORROW which means I have to drive everyone in the car to take her an hour away in rush traffic. Maybe won't be too bad; we're hopeful.
DD3 is 5 now, and is very interested in violin; we are planning on starting her with our studio's Pretwinkle class in Sept. She's done a few baby lessons with her sister. It will be like starting over again, very strange in many ways! I have resisted for quite some time; I really needed to be done with some stuff in my life. My littlest also is interested; she is 2 1/2 and very receptive. We are playing Book 1 CD and dd1 is part of the play-practice (over there singing "mississippi hot-dog!" We have foot charts ready to go! Honestly, I have only done Institute with an almost end of book 1 student and more advanced; not sure I can justify the expense for a Twinkler.
We just got home from Institute last night. We came home to a boatload of b.s., and it makes me long for a life at Institute! I'm always sad to reenter the outside world, and the transition is even more extreme this year.
It's so gratifying to see my kids grow so much in one week. My son played in orchestra for the first time. It was HARD for him at the beginning of the week, but he finished the week with a sense of accomplishment. When their informal concert was over he said, "I want to do that again!" My daughter was on the younger side of her Technique Class. That was her challenging class, and it turned out to be her favorite, too.
It amazes me how all of their pieces are better in their practice now, even the pieces that they didn't play in their classes last week. Tonight she played Perpetual Motion so nicely! I hadn't heard either of her group classes play that, and none of the kids in her A class worked on that piece. I asked my daughter if they had played that piece when her Dad took her to her Rep class. They hadn't. So then I asked how it had improved so much since last week. She said, "It's because I play it in my head!"
I just renewed my SmartMusic subscription today. While we were at Institute I realized that my kids are missing out by not playing with the accompaniments often. I love the adjustable tempo feature on SmartMusic. The synth sound, not so much, but I guess I can give a little there. My download didn't work right earlier, so I'm going to go try again.
BTW - did you all know that SAA members get a 15% discount on their SmartMusic subscriptions. Associate members get the discount, too. You can get the quarterly SAA journal AND a SmartMusic subscription for just $65 (or $60 if you have 10 families join with a Studio subscription).
We completed our annual (local) Suzuki instititute a week and a half ago. It was odd not having my eldest around being part of it -- she was off doing non-Suzuki musical things this summer. And several other members of her cohort of advanced students had also moved on, so the next bunch of kids became more senior and thrived in their new roles.
Dd8 moved up to the advanced orchestra and the advanced group/technique class this year. Ours is a small institute, and she only barely made the cut for the advanced level groups (Books 6-10+). The kids were mostly a fair bit older but she's a focused, mature thing, so I figured she'd be fine. She did some good preparatory work for the orchestra and coped well with the demanding repertoire. Group class ended up focusing a lot on advanced bowing techniques like spiccato, sautillé and ricochet. She had just moved up to a nice hand-me-down quarter-sized violin about three weeks before and I hadn't really appreciated how cheap the bow was until I tried to use it myself to figure out how to advise her about the bowing exercises. It was a fibreglass clunker completely incapable of bouncing -- maybe a $40 bow. Totally useless, and she was really floundering in the class as a result. Fortunately the luthier in residence had a much better bow in stock. A couple of hundred dollars later she was doing and pretty passable quadruple ricochet and getting the hang of sautillé.
Dd12 played second violin opposite her brother in a two-viola quintet (the Mozart g minor), as part of the Advanced Chamber Music program. She was socially very much like a teenager amongst that group of awesome young musicians, fitting in beautifully and enjoying the mileu. She was in the advanced orchestra and group technique class and had a very productive master class with a teacher she got along well with. She performed the Monti Csardas on recital and did a great job. She loved being out and about during the days and the evenings, having a full social life and a busy musical schedule.
Ds14 was also in the thick of things socially as part of the Advanced Chamber Music program and although he would have loved to have his elder sister around to be part of the whole thing, in some ways it was fabulous for him to be able to shine a little brighter as a musician and as a smart, funny, compassionate and increasingly adult-like young person. He is playing just beautifully and actually worked hard on his solo viola repertoire during the week, with motivation left over to carry him forward. He has really struggled with motivation for the past couple of years, so this was nice to see. He had a wonderful affinity for his master class teacher and made some really great strides with his Schubert Arpeggione Sonata.
Now we're planning for fall. Dd17 is moving away to study music and has things pretty well organized. Unfortunately she is not happy with her violin. We bought it four years ago for a little under $3k. It has some set-up issues that are very finicky and none of the luthiers who have looked at it have been able to permanently solve them. I have a feeling that within a year we'll have to take the plunge for a new and much more expensive instrument. She's at a totally different level now. Coincidentally she will be studying with the wife of a very fine violin maker ... who crafts the kind of instrument that would make a good "forever violin" for my girl. But ouch, the cost! We'll see.
Ds14 outrgrew the region's viola teaching some time ago (slim pickings!), so we're faced with driving 7-8 hours for his lessons once a month or so. We used to take him along with his highly committed, hard-working older sister, but now that she's moving away, it will be just for him. Currently he's practicing very hard, easily enough to justify all the driving. We'll have to see if it lasts. He and I will be playing in a small-town symphony four hours from home again this year -- four programs over four different weekends, with a bunch of second-string professionals brought in and or two student musicians (i.e. ds). It'll be good for him to get the reading and orchestral experience.
Miranda
The biggest issue with multiple children playing instruments in different families is that their music interests are all over the board. As I said, dd1, 12, went to a non-Suzuki strings institute that focused on group playing. She worked in quartet all week, and made a friend cellist, and was frustrated with the 7th grade aged boys... but the ensemble came together anyway. :) The chamber-sized orchestra (about 35 people) did great to play Eine Kleine, and some other wonderful stuff. DD1 also moved up from the strings ensemble to the youth concert orchestra, so in 3 weeks she will start those rehearsals as well!
I am going to be entering a new world with having my oldest almost done with book 5, and starting my 5 year old as a PreTwinkler. My 2 year old also has a foot chart and we're practicing rhythms and listening semi-regularly and will be improving on our "routine" after school starts. I was not going to try to start another child at age 4; at this point for my other children and my patience level I need them to be older.
So I have a violinist, dd2, 11, is a pianist and a new trombonist in band, ds, '7, is doing very casual guitar lessons and likes it, and dd3, 5, will be a preTwinkler and dd4, 2, will be a pre-pre-pre Twinkler. :) Busy. :) Maybe our Institute will work for our family in 2012.
So separate from my update, I just wanted to get some opinions/ideas. DD1 has decided she wants a violin jam session birthday party. I am at a loss as to how to organize a jam session for her birthday party--should I find some easy to read music for 4 violins or something like that? We can manage a music themed cake, etc., but how do you make a jam session attractive to other music students who might be at about a Suzuki book 2 level? I'd appreciate any ideas! :)
Hi everyone!
We have a new feature that allows forum members to create "clubs" of their own that have many of the same benefits of a forum, including multiple threads, a member's list, and group messaging. All tribes are invited to switch from the one-long-thread here in FYT to the new Social Groups. You can read more about it here. Let me know if you have any questions but please post to that thread so I can keep everything in one place. 
Hi Everyone
I have a pretwinkler who will be 4 this summer and I was looking for a suzuki summer institute/camp that is good for pretwinklers. I am in the nj ny pa area but I would be up for a longer car ride if the program was well established. Anyone have any suggestions, I am not even sure what a good pretwinkler camp would consist of.... His teacher works with an institute but not many pretwinklers as far as i can tell, so I would rather research before asking the teacher, if that makes sense.
Thanks for any help!
We have a lovely institute in our little town (not practical for you -- we're near the west coast and in Canada) but as the institute co-director who has watched many pre-Twinks pass through our program over the years, I just wanted to offer a few words of caution.
We offer a pre-Twinkler program for younger siblings of older students and local kids only. Because it seems almost cruel to have them here observing all this amazing music-making and Suzuki learning and to not allow them to participate. The pre-Twinkler program includes two core hours a day: a shared master class with three other students and a music enrichment class. The master class involves sharing an hour of mostly-individualized instruction with three other young students. The music enrichment class varies but recently it has been either percussion / rhythmic improv or movement / dance. Then there are all the additional things ... large-group play-ins, recitals to observe and participate in, social events -- usually an hour or two a day of optional but worthy events.
The thing is this: it's pretty intense for these kids. Many of them struggle to cope with it. It's a big deal for a 4-year-old to be immersed in new class formats with teachers and children and parents and expectations (of quiet observation) that are new to them. The large group events can be tiring and overwhelming. Some kids find it difficult to quickly establish a working relationship with a new teacher in the master class and aren't willing to participate fully, or even at all. The different pace and energy of the group classes can be hard for them to cope with -- even just small differences from what they're used to in their home program. Being away from home in new living circumstance, or commuting every day, eats away at their emotional reserves.
Not that an institute can't be a worthwhile experience for young children. My youngest participated as a 4-year-old and enjoyed herself a lot. But don't under-estimate the emotional and social challenges and the toll that will take on your little one.
Miranda
Hi Miranda,
Sounds like very wise advice. I appreciate it. We have participated in a few group events outside our teachers community and I am quite on board with your thoughts. I was hoping for a fun setting with a couple hours of pretwinkler events per day. & obviously not solid hours. I noticed a pretwinkler 1/2 day summer camp which seemed fine. Just the local area seemed a bit blah for finding outside entertainments.
Thanks again for your input.
Any body from MDC going to Matsumoto Japan for the International Conference next year?
I'm happy to see this tribe, although it hasn't been active for awhile! My husband and I are violinists by trade and started with the Suzuki method. Now we teach it! Good times.
Feel free to ask if you have violin-related questions. We'll be doing Suzuki with our son, who is now 7 months. So far, we're just listening to the recordings!
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