spinoff: where the money goes

[mama41]

There was a recent suggestion that the govt look into where the cs is going, and see if it benefits the children. Those of you who have your own kids are well aware of the costs, but for those new to momhood, it can be surprising to see how fast the money vanishes.

Here are my daughter's average monthly costs, not including med and daycare. This represents the actual cost of raising her, not including hits to my earning ability due to being custodial (and permanently on-call, since ex will likely stay seriously mentally ill). We have a 1600 sqft house with a 1/8th block yard, a mile from a good public elementary school and a quarter-mile from the safer highschool. Housing and energy prices here are below national median. We live in a fairly dense area and not a lot of driving is required, so fuel/auto costs are also below median.

House/energy/water: $650-800 (beyond my single-living housing expenses, which are easily calculated)
Food: $150
Activities: $125 (1 or 2 activities)
Clothes/shoes: $50
Camp/summer activities: $100 ($1200 budget)
Incidental: $60 (birthday presents for friends, admission to skating, etc.)
Ed enrich and school/classroom supplies: $125

Total: $1335. This doesn't include things like taking her to visit my family, which runs me about $1500/yr.

Suffice to say that my c/s is less than $668/mo; I pay more than half her daily expenses.

Beyond c/s, ex also pays half of medical, half of daycare, half of her religious instruction, and $85/mo towards college savings, which brings his monthly total to about $1100, barring serious medical problems. Note that this does not cover half her expenses. I make up the rest. His income is roughly twice mine, and his non-daycare-non-med costs as an NCP are about $200/mo. over his costs for himself alone.

I buy myself nice things -- jewelry, massages, cookware, things for the house. I also take my daughter on trips. I can do this because I make enough money to do it. However, it does not mean that I am spending the child support on myself.

Kids are expensive, and more of the cost of raising them falls on parents than used to. There's a sort of myth abroad that involves dreams of 1972, with 8-year-olds running around on their own in the golden summer and the schools lining them up for Suzuki violin and trips to the ballet. This world no longer exists. Not only do I need to provide whatever arts education my dd's going to have, but because of the way my district teaches math, for instance, I will be responsible for teaching her long division and making sure she learns the times table -- if I want her to be able to do these things. I am also responsible for providing classroom materials -- paper, snacks, boxes of tissues. This is in a well-funded, well-regarded school district.

Please don't assume that just because your dh pays a lot of money, and the CP is decked out, that the money is not being spent on the child. It may be so. But before you make that assumption, be sure you have the numbers. The cost of raising the child over and above childless-adult expenses may be significantly more than you're assuming.

[PoppyMama]

[PoppyMama]

I have to add that I understand that many people are dealing with cp who are unreasonable and not always looking out for the best interest of the child. After floating around in this forum for a while I'm actually semi-glad that my kids dad disappeared and neither sees them nor pays a dime.

[guestmama 9918]

OK, I don't want to get into the whole "is CS spent on the child?" argument. Let's assume that it is. I just have to react to your numbers.

(Using your numbers just for the sake of argument here.)

I have 3 kids. Let's assume that I save some $ using hand me downs among the 2 younger kids, the infant is not in school yet so I would only have education costs for two. And I'd only have to pay rent once, but might need a 3BR vs 2BR. My incidentals would include things like diapers and instead of camp I might need to buy a tricycle.

House/energy/water: $800 (I used the high end of your scale)
Food: $450
Activities: $250 (1 or 2 activities for 12 y.o + 3 y.o.)
Clothes/shoes: $100
Camp/summer activities: $200
Incidental: $180
Ed enrich and school/classroom supplies: $250

I'd still be at ~$2200/month without daycare. Daycare would be an additional $2400/month, so I would have $4600/month in child related expenses before I even factor in food for myself, clothes for work, renting a DVD. I just can't agree that my costs were ever anything like that. I never received CS, so I would have been broke all the time.

I agree with you that earning power can be decreased by having to be the on call parent who misses work for sick days or if the sitter flakes. But even as a childless person I still needed a roof over my head, and as a single female I would not choose to live in a bad neighborhood just to save money. I'd probably live in the city vs suburbia, which would be more expensive.

I'm not trying to dispute your math or the choices you make about how you spend your $ on yourDD. I spend way too much on my kid's clothes, always have. I just think you and I are of differing opinions about what constitutes "chlidren's expenses."

[SimpleJoys]

I think it also depends on where you live. We live in a more inexpensive area but have high CS. I think it also depends on how each parent views what a child needs, for instance what our bio mom views as a "need" we see as a luxury. According to her, Dss "needed" the $500 she recently spent on him for clothes. She chose to take him to the most expensive stores in the mall, buying fewer bang for the buck. We were appalled.That was one half of CS for that month. She also thinks he needs football camps (2 of them) this summer. We disagree and think his time would be better spent with a tutor or at the library as he came very close to failing school this year. She also recently bought him an xbox (it was not birthday or Xmas) but now cannot make her half of the dental copays. That is why I would want some type of accountability. Was it Dh's money or hers that paid for that xbox? It was Dh's money that bought those expensive clothes. I would rather she pay for the neccessities of his life with CS and not see them drain away into unneeded luxuries, either hers or Dss's. If she wants to use her salary on extras then that is her business, but it is our business when she cannot afford to go by the divorce decree because she has squandered the money.

[mama41]

Originally Posted by kkj323

I'm not trying to dispute your math or the choices you make about how you spend your $ on yourDD. I spend way too much on my kid's clothes, always have. I just think you and I are of differing opinions about what constitutes "chlidren's expenses."

OK. I'm pretty good with a budget, and my numbers come from actual expenses paid. I was working with xh on c/s issues at the time, so I went through the check registries and bank statements. The biggest bite for me comes from housing (daycare is relatively low, because working freelance means I don't have to put her in fulltime). My number comes from actual expenses paid for (mortgage/taxes, gas/elec/water, home maintenance, and lawncare) minus (mortgage/taxes, assoc dues, elec) paid on the little condo where I used to live on my own before I met my ex. In this area, unfortunately, there is no way to significantly lower our mortgage without moving to a problem-school area, which means the savings would be more than offset by paying extra for tutoring or other private ed.

I did consider moving us back to the condo. But apart from the school problem, dd would've had nowhere to play or ride a bike, and as she grew up she'd have had little privacy. The neighbors are students who come & go, so you don't get that support network. There's no play space or gardens outside, just parking lots and a busy road. The neighborhood's not what it was. Great for a single writer, in other words, but not great for kids. Better-situated condos cost more than our house. Rents have risen to the point where there'd be no saving by going that route. After dd's grown, though, I'll sell the house and move back to the condo again. I liked it there, and I can't say I enjoy taking care of house and garden.

My dd does mostly wear hand-me-downs. Her shoes are expensive, though, because she's got wide feet and (now) orthotics. Camp for her is mostly a form of daycare; I can move my work around, but at some point during the day I have to make some money. Having her roam the neighborhood solo while I work is not a possibility unless I want CPS here.

Do you really pay $1200/mo, though, for each of your little ones' daycare? And no aid or scholarships? I can see it, maybe, in metro areas, but I don't think I know any around here that go that high. Even the Montessori doesn't charge that much. We pay about $300/mo for dd's part-time care -- usually around 11 am to 4:30-5 pm.

[guestmama 9918]

Originally Posted by mama41

Do you really pay $1200/mo, though, for each of your little ones' daycare? And no aid or scholarships? I can see it, maybe, in metro areas, but I don't think I know any around here that go that high. Even the Montessori doesn't charge that much. We pay about $300/mo for dd's part-time care -- usually around 11 am to 4:30-5 pm.

I have a 3 y.o. and a 3 month old. Infants have the highest costs at the daycare center. If the two of them go FT it would cost that much. I could decrease the expense to ~$500 week by hiring a nanny to come into the home. There you run the risk though that the person is unreliable or quits without notice.

[The Harpy]

I always try to remind people that child support is the 'childs' money, not dads or moms money. IMO it is money spent making the two homes whole. Does that make sense?

[violet_]

I'm willing to assume that a lot of CP's spend it all on the kids. But I'm not sure that always leads to reasonable financial decisions.

I mean, it's human nature that if we go to a store where everything is 50% off, we buy more. So if we split the cost of everything but I get to make all the spending decisions, then I might decide to be less frugal with your money than I would have been with only mine. (Well, not me personally -- I'm a cheapskate with anyone's money, but you get the idea )

So while my DSC's mom may in fact spend it all on the kids, to do that would almost require her to buy things they don't need, particularly if she chips in any of her money. So she does silly things with it like send DSS to a private school that's less able to cater to his needs than any of the excellent public schools in the area. She also buys absurd amounts of toys and overpriced clothing. It's one thing to tell DH he has to support his kids. On that we all agree. But to not have any say in how it is spent can be frustrating. (Just saying it's frustrating -- not saying I have a solution to this or that she ought to be micromanaged). And that's a case where she probably DOES spend all or most of it on the kids and she does pay her part of medical costs and the like. She's probably a good egg, in the grand scheme. I doubt she's saving any of it for college, but that's another story.

How much worse to be in a situation like angilyn where her DH's money goes to frivolous things while DSS's dental bills go unpaid so her DH is perhaps guilted into paying more for that just because of DSS's mom's poor money management.

Maybe in the same way NCP's who don't pay regularly can have their wages garnished, perhaps CP's who receive CS but can't manage to spend any of it on required shared expenses (like copays) should have that just deducted from the CS before they receive it. Same principle.

[mama41]

Originally Posted by kkj323

I have a 3 y.o. and a 3 month old. Infants have the highest costs at the daycare center. If the two of them go FT it would cost that much. I could decrease the expense to ~$500 week by hiring a nanny to come into the home. There you run the risk though that the person is unreliable or quits without notice.

Oh, I see. And I agree; I gave up on the nanny thing a year ago. Reliability and no-notice quitting/leaving-town was definitely an issue.

[mama41]

Originally Posted by violet_

Maybe in the same way NCP's who don't pay regularly can have their wages garnished, perhaps CP's who receive CS but can't manage to spend any of it on required shared expenses (like copays) should have that just deducted from the CS before they receive it. Same principle.

You might run into some problems on that one. In my state, for instance, the avg child support order is $300, based of course on NCPs' income. The state doesn't require the NCP to pay for any childcare. So it would be entirely reasonable for the average CP here to be using all the cs for child-related expenses, yet not be able to cover shared expenses.

[mama41]

Originally Posted by violet_

I'm willing to assume that a lot of CP's spend it all on the kids. But I'm not sure that always leads to reasonable financial decisions.

I mean, it's human nature that if we go to a store where everything is 50% off, we buy more. So if we split the cost of everything but I get to make all the spending decisions, then I might decide to be less frugal with your money than I would have been with only mine. (Well, not me personally -- I'm a cheapskate with anyone's money, but you get the idea )

Violet, this makes sense if you've got open-ended discretionary things in the decree, like extracurriculars. (The solution to that is not to leave them in your decree before you sign it.) However, it doesn't work so well when you're talking about fixed amounts like c/s. Regardless of where the mom shops, she's not going to get more than the stated c/s. If I spent $500 on my daughter's clothes, or sent her to private school, I'd be the one paying the entire bump up in cost.

If the c/s don't cover half of the kid's frugal living expenses, it's not going to cover half the tony living expenses, either. In that case, if the NCP got upset about the expenditures, he'd be upset about how the mother was spending her own money, not the money he was paying for support of the child.

How much worse to be in a situation like angilyn where her DH's money goes to frivolous things while DSS's dental bills go unpaid so her DH is perhaps guilted into paying more for that just because of DSS's mom's poor money management.

Yes, this is not so good. I think the credit-related problems are probably much bigger.

[mama41]

Originally Posted by The Harpy

I always try to remind people that child support is the 'childs' money, not dads or moms money. IMO it is money spent making the two homes whole. Does that make sense?

Yes.

[violet_]

Originally Posted by mama41

Violet, this makes sense if you've got open-ended discretionary things in the decree, like extracurriculars. (The solution to that is not to leave them in your decree before you sign it.)

Yup. I'm still shocked when I see stuff like that in decrees. DH's is comparatively simple.

Originally Posted by mama41

However, it doesn't work so well when you're talking about fixed amounts like c/s. Regardless of where the mom shops, she's not going to get more than the stated c/s. If I spent $500 on my daughter's clothes, or sent her to private school, I'd be the one paying the entire bump up in cost.

I guess I should explain my logic here a bit. I'm coming from the perspective of someone whose DH pays a whole lot more than your state average, and, in fact, pays plenty to cover most reasonable expenses. If he paid this to some selfish person who wanted to go live the high life (ok, it's not enough for that but you know what I mean), she would do as you say and be frugal with the kids' stuff and spend on herself. If, on the other hand, we assume a more typical mom who has her kids as a top priority and feels like the CS is theirs, (especially if she assumes we'll pay for college so she doesn't need to put any aside), then she's more likely to try to spend it all on the kids every month, and will need to be a bit lavish to use it all up.

Originally Posted by mama41

If the c/s don't cover half of the kid's frugal living expenses, it's not going to cover half the tony living expenses, either. In that case, if the NCP got upset about the expenditures, he'd be upset about how the mother was spending her own money, not the money he was paying for support of the child.

Well, yes, for $300/mo your argument makes more sense. For what DH pays, maybe not. As I've said before, the CS amounts vary wildly and many CPs are shortchanged, but so are many NCPs. It would be impossible to create a formula that would create a fair circumstance for all cases.

[kblackstone444]

Originally Posted by violet_

Well, yes, for $300/mo your argument makes more sense. For what DH pays, maybe not. As I've said before, the CS amounts vary wildly and many CPs are shortchanged, but so are many NCPs. It would be impossible to create a formula that would create a fair circumstance for all cases.

The problem is, it's hard for anyone to really see "The Other Side". Ironically, I was shortchanged on both sides. My son's Biological Father paid a whopping $24 dollars a month for years now. Was it enough to support my son? Maybe buy him milk for the month. But I did happen to know for a fact that, my son's Biological Father really could not afford to pay more. Then there's my Hubby. I'm not gonna get into numbers right now, but long story short, he pays 80% of everything for his daughter, is required to put away a certain ammount for college every month for my stepdaughter. Her Mother lives with my stepdaughter's paternal Grandfather rent free, goes clothes shopping (with my stepdaughter) and for manicures and pedicures weekly (with my stepdaughter) and on at least two real vacations a year. Yes, all the money we give (40% of my Hubby's earnings) goes to my stepdaughter's Mother and she (I think) spends at least a good chunk of it on my stepdaughter, but when you see everything that "The Other Side" is doing while you barely have the money to pay the bills, much less buy things you need, like clothes and household materials (never mind the occasional movie or outing that never happens), it's hard not to get depressed about how much money is getting sent out while you're going without. My stepdaughter's Mother has been doing this since they seperated- when my stepdaughter was a couple months old. For three years before I moved in with my Hubby, my Hubby slept on his Father's couch, because after paying the child support (and alimony), he only had enough money left for food and gas to get to work. When you see that happening, you can't help but wonder if, maybe, just maybe, things could have somehow been evened up between households so that there wasn't someone living "high off the hog" and someone sitting at "rock bottom". In theory, child support (and all that other divorce crap), is for the "best interest of the child", but how is it in the best interest of the child to be exposed to such extremes between houses? It's hard to keep from becoming cynical when faces with these circumstances.

[pinksprklybarefoot]

I wish I was working with your numbers, mama41! My entire household (of 3.5) runs on slightly more than you budget for one child. In a major metropolitan area. This includes budgeting for vacations, Christmas, saving for a new car and computer when the current ones die, insurance, everything. And, of course, CS.

I know the numbers because we budget by spreadsheet and envelope in order to save for my tuition.

[mama41]

Yow, pinksprkly, that is not enough money, esp in a metro area! Here's hoping that after you graduate there'll be a significant payoff. Fwiw, if I was doing this at your age, I'd have been living much like you guys. Side effect of waiting till you're of advanced maternal age.

(Are there decent benefits where you are? Around here, at under $20K for that family size, the packages are actually pretty good. You can get childcare vouchers (also avail for students, hooray), excellent health insurance for both kids and adults, and food aid, and if you own your home, you can get block grant money for home repairs.)

Originally Posted by violet_

I guess I should explain my logic here a bit. I'm coming from the perspective of someone whose DH pays a whole lot more than your state average, and, in fact, pays plenty to cover most reasonable expenses. If he paid this to some selfish person who wanted to go live the high life (ok, it's not enough for that but you know what I mean), she would do as you say and be frugal with the kids' stuff and spend on herself. If, on the other hand, we assume a more typical mom who has her kids as a top priority and feels like the CS is theirs, (especially if she assumes we'll pay for college so she doesn't need to put any aside), then she's more likely to try to spend it all on the kids every month, and will need to be a bit lavish to use it all up.

I see the logic, but it would put her at odds with most single moms of my acquaintance. The ones who make enough to support their kids on their own tend to just put the c/s away for the kids. Part of that's a pride thing -- the idea that they don't need the guy, and there's no little anger involved -- but part of it's that often the guys have been less than reliable, and they don't want to put themselves in the position of having to rely on them again. Personally, I don't see the point of spending c/s just to spend it, or in holding it separate from other household money, but that's me.

I'm betting that what actually governs the expenditures, btw, isn't "what can I get with the money" but "what do my kids' friends have". I know that this is something my married friends are much concerned about, and that there's a definite appearances/income gap for some of them that is a real source of anxiety. Luckily for the household budget, I think it's salutary to get left out and have to entertain yourself sometimes.

If your DH pays enough to cover all reasonable expenses, then I must tell you, this is either a very unusual or a very wealthy guy. My lawyer's a fighter, but she wanted nothing to do with looking for more than the state-mandated amounts, whether or not they covered half dd's expenses. She didn't understand why anyone would agree to that anyway. And she's done nothing but divorce for decades. I had to fight her to get that college-savings provision in. I was shocked, because -- well, I'd had no idea. I'd just assumed most guys who could afford it did the decent thing. My dad did. But apparently that's very unusual and their own lawyers try to convince them not to do it.

I remember my xh trying out the arguments on me, too -- basically suggesting I should take dd to grow up in some cramped apartment in a lousy neighborhood to cut the living expenses. I don't know how seriously he ever meant it -- he tends to just repeat the last things people have stuck in his ear. But I remember just staring at him and telling him that no, he had a very nice income, and if he wasn't going to be a stand-up daddy and go halfsies on raising his daughter like a middle-class kid of two well-educated parents, she wouldn't be the one to pay for it. And that's how it's gone.

I looked up the numbers on it about a year ago, and as I recall, of about 13m single-mom households, fewer than 3m have household incomes at or higher than US median. Even generous c/s isn't going to boost most of the rest over that median; these women are poor, and I'm guessing that most of the women making less than, say, $30K have exes who're also poor and not paying much. Single dads do considerably better moneywise, enough to put us to shame, really, though I don't know what kind of childcare arrangements they have, or avg age of the children & dads. (I'd actually looked it up because I was thinking of doing a single-mom finance column, and I was annoyed by the presumption that single moms are so poor they don't have enough money for savings, investment, other normal middle-class stuff. I wanted to see if there was enough of a well-off single-mom market to justify a column.)

So I am a little wary to begin with of assumptions that the single moms are in general wasting the c/s. Could it happen? Sure. But if the census numbers are anything like accurate, I don't think too many of those women are in a position to spend lavishly on much of anything, even if their c/s is good. (Again, it could happen. I've certainly watched as seriously poor single moms did reckless "I gotta do something for me" things like spend ghastly amounts of money on dreamcatchers and trips to [state you wouldn't have thought of as a vacation spot]. But on the whole, I just don't see where they've got enough dough to waste it as a way of life.)

[kblackstone444]

Originally Posted by mama41

Yow, pinksprkly, that is not enough money, esp in a metro area! Here's hoping that after you graduate there'll be a significant payoff. Fwiw, if I was doing this at your age, I'd have been living much like you guys. Side effect of waiting till you're of advanced maternal age.

(Are there decent benefits where you are? Around here, at under $20K for that family size, the packages are actually pretty good. You can get childcare vouchers (also avail for students, hooray), excellent health insurance for both kids and adults, and food aid, and if you own your home, you can get block grant money for home repairs.)

Mama41, are you talking about decent benefits and such for the person paying child support? If you are, may I bring something to your attention that you may not be aware of? Medical benefits usually arent' too much of a problem, as long as the noncustodial parent can get it through his job, but when applying for medical insurance assistance, housing assistance, food stamps, and child care vouchers, they count ALL the income you make, but do not take into consideration the money that goes out, paying for child support. For example, a couple years ago, I lost my job and my Hubby was fully supporting our family, as well as paying child support. For expenses references, we live just North of NYC and for our three bedroom apartment (which we're required to have, in order to have my stepdaughter for overnight visitations), we pay $2081 a month. Since my Hubby made roughly between $4500 a month at that time (gorss- don't forget taxes) and he was paying $1000 a month in child support and $1200 a month in alimony, plus 80% of daycare for my stepdaughter (lets forget for a moment that, at that point in time, my son was also in daycare), you can see the problem, moneywise. You would think we would have qualified for some kind of assistance, right? You would think that with $219 a month for our living expenses, we would have qualified for SOMETHING, right? We were told repeatedly by all these places that, nope, our entire income is what counts and, quite frankly, we just make too much money to qualify. We ended up borrowing from my Father-in-Law (), but if we didn't have that to "fall back on", I don't know what we would have done. Any kind of government help is simply not availablew for people paying child support. The system is broken.

[Phoenix~Mama]

Indeed, what Harley said. We "make too much money", but they don't care that half of it we never see...

I know I'm going to get jumped on here.. but I'm sorry... my personal opinoin houseing costs shoudn't count into figuring out C/S. The NCP has to provide the extra bedroom same as the CP and we certainly don't get help for it.

Three bedrooms are hard to come by in this area, and their cost is much, much more. I'm looking easily at a $1,300/month rent vs $800 for a two bedroom.

It's both parents child and both have to provide housing regardless, so housing costs should not be part of C/S... both parents have to pay it, why should one get help on it over the other?

To me child expenses are to do specifically with the child... the child's medical care, the child's clothes, school supplies, extracurricular supplies...


What makes me sad... I see DSD in ratty second hand clothes at times, but yet her Mother buys a new Coach bag just about every month, plus travels every other weekend 3 hours away with the lovely gas costs to visit her boyfriend, then whines to us we aren't giving her enough money. Stop buying the outrageously priced purses every month?

[pinksprklybarefoot]

Originally Posted by mama41

Yow, pinksprkly, that is not enough money, esp in a metro area! Here's hoping that after you graduate there'll be a significant payoff. Fwiw, if I was doing this at your age, I'd have been living much like you guys. Side effect of waiting till you're of advanced maternal age.

I should clarify - we make more than that. We are just putting a lot into savings every month. Pharmacy school is about $80,000, and we want to be able to pay for most of it out of pocket. It will pay off in the end, I know. Plus it is teaching me excellent frugal money management skills that will hopefully become second nature by the time I am making the big bucks.