pushing teenagehood younger and younger - Page 3

[zipworth]

Originally Posted by Calidris

I see this quite differently. Why should a 2 or 3 year old (or even 5 year old) have to wear shorts under her skirt? The obsession with someone seeing their panties seems to me to be part of the early sexualization of children. What difference is there if a preschooler flashed her panties or flashes a pair of shorts? There is nothing sexual about the butt of a child that age. There is no curve to the hips, no rounded butt. There is no difference between a girl of that age in her undies and a boy.
I was in primary school in the early 70s, and I remember my school skirts being very short, with no shorts underneath.

I used to feel this way too, until I started taking preschoolers on outings on the city buses. It's not so much their panties they are displaying as what is underneath them- in the various immodest ways little girls sit and explore themselves while riding on public transport. I cannot tell you how many men would ogle their innocent displays.....All I could do was shut their legs and glare at the men. I personally don't think that's o.k. My own daughter wears shorts or bloomers under her dresses now, whearas before I may nnot have cared.

[wonderwahine]

Originally Posted by Arduinna

I didn't say a thing about posting anywhere.

I talked about how IMO the issues of 8 year olds are different than preteens and teens. I think you need to reread exactly what I posted.

which ties directly into the pp's vent about it.

And IMO they arn't that different, they are just the beginnings of those issues. Thankfully I am young enough to still remember what its like to be a preteen and teen, and the issues are not as clear cut and seperate as you would like to believe.

[FondestBianca]

So we might as well just all say, "people who don't agree with me are bad parents." Right? NO! I'm just as guilty but, the back and forth, back and forth, no you're wrong because THIS or THAT or no, I'm right because THIS or THAT... Whats the point? It's not anyones job to convince anyone else. If someone walks up to you and says, "how dare you let your daughter show her bottom in public." or "how dare you limit your daughter by making her wear shorts under everything." you STILL don't need to explain, defend, and certianly not attack the other person and dare say they are the problem with society today.

Why do we (myself included) have such a need speak our case and convince others? Especially when we aren't just trying to convince how WE are RIGHT but, also to convince them publicly that THEY are WRONG. And above all else why would we go on to tell others they are practicing bad parenting (for honestly, very silly details) or are parenting 'wrong' or 'not as good'?

I applaud anyone who keeps a sense of humor and doesn't go deep into unproductive debate (debate is good, informative, and healthy but, when emotions get mixed in, it just become hurtful and pointless to all... because it creates nothing but, negitive)... I'll have to work on that

[Arduinna]

the post you are referring to about 8 year olds was in response to superstella and immediately following her post. I was addressing her comments about 8 year olds. And no where in her post was she venting about posts in this forum. Again you need to scroll up and re read.


And with that, I'm done discussing your false accusations.

[chfriend]

I'm the mom of a 7.5 year old...and I have to agree with Arduinna...It completely squigs my dd out when kids start talking about pairing up in the 7-9 year old group she mostly hangs out with.

I haven't been able to figure out if it's because she doesn't know if she would pair up with a girl or a boy or if it's just pushing her somewhere she doesn't want to go.

Honestly, 7 years old seems really too young to come out to me, so it seems like it would be too young for the rest of this stuff.

Sex, drugs and rock and roll really don't have any business affecting people who are the age to become Brownies in my mind.

But then, I think we've forgotten how very little these kids are....I see it in threads talking about how 18 month olds should be able to stop when Mom says to, 3 year olds don't need to be supervised every minute, 8 year olds should be expected to get up and out to school on their own in the morning...

In my homeschooling circles, there's a big push to get kids to do more earlier.

What's the rush?

[chfriend]

Serial posts, wait, Am I understanding right? An 8 year old is a "pre-teen?" I will never get these labels straight. I thought pre-teens were 11 and 12 year olds.

[Arduinna]

Honestly, 7 years old seems really too young to come out to me, so it seems like it would be too young for the rest of this stuff.

I never thought about it from that perspective, thanks for sharing that.

[chfriend]

More ponderings...if an 8 year old needs a bra, how is that not a Childhood Years issue...needing a bra does not make the 8 year old a teen or pre-teen.

I recently read that for girls 8 is not considered precocious puberty...so if it's developmentally normal, why not post it in Childhood Years?

The issues an 8 year old will encounter from entering puberty are not the same as an older child encountering the same changes.

[karne]

Originally Posted by chfriend

More ponderings...if an 8 year old needs a bra, how is that not a Childhood Years issue...needing a bra does not make the 8 year old a teen or pre-teen.

I recently read that for girls 8 is not considered precocious puberty...so if it's developmentally normal, why not post it in Childhood Years?

The issues an 8 year old will encounter from entering puberty are not the same as an older child encountering the same changes.

My child is a bit older, but the reason I lurk and sometimes post here is for the experience of the moms who contribute in this forum. I consider their time and what they have to say a real gift to me. Truly. I am not trying to be somewhere I shouldn't or intrude. I take a bit from the childhood years and a bit from here, and put it all together. I guess the labels are not as important to me as the generosity of spirit and wealth of information from this community.

[KaraBoo]

I don't want to get get sidetracked by the energy and emotion surrounding clothing styles so I'll just say this:

I think Americans particularly push their kids into teenhood and then keep them there way too long. I'm noticing this more and more after moving back here but it's something I've observed years ago.

I talk to my daughter about it. I fight hard to give her freedom but also help her enjoy her age, which is 9. It's a more difficult struggle here in the States, I must say.

[rhubarbarin]

I dont think anyone is pushing anything, kids are just dealing with things at an earlier age now, and thats just reality.

I respectfully disagree. I am only 12 years older than today's 10-year-olds, but nothing has changed that I can see. My boyfriend is 39, and he had almost the same experience as I did.

In 1990 and in 1974, kids were pairing off and had girlfriends and boyfriends in kindergarten and 1st grade. I had my first 'boyfriend' in kindergarten. We kissed and held hands.

DBF had his first sexual experience at age 11 (where the girl was the aggressor, and he was scared). His peers were experimenting with sex, drugs, drinking by 7th or 8th grade. Same as my generation. I didn't participate in any of it, but I remember what was going on.

There were trends, and beauty ideals, and inappropriate famous role models (lots of those in the late 70s/early 80s when DBF was a pree-teen) and revealing clothing fashions that appalled parents..

I really don't think all that much has changed with actual kids in the last 10, 20, 30 years. What has changed are our perceptions, and media attention. I don't think there are many more pedophiles now, for instance, then there were then. There's just a hysteria/hyper-awareness about them now, and more ways to catch them.

[mommyinIL1976]

I'm always in shock when my daughter tells me some of the stuff happens in the 6th grade these days. I still say it's in how you raise your kids. If you teach them to be confident in their bodies and that their body is theirs, you won't have the oversexualization to fight within them. It will always be out there in society regardless if it's adults or teens or children, but you can make a difference in your children.

It's about picking battles....You give an you take. DD (11) does not wear make-up...just lip gloss. We have recently allowed her to wear bikinis and she does shave her legs. But I've held firm with thong underwear. She begs for it and I know it's because her friends are wearing them, but I draw the line there. Not sure how much longer I'll be able to hold out there (I've lost my last ally there....DH doesn't care as long as it doesn't show out the top of her pants). Maybe when she's a teen, but not now darn it

[boobybunny]

My daughter is an early bloomer at age nine. So maybe I am more sensitive than other parents about how she dresses and what she looks like. All that being said, I about blew my cool last Friday at a school function.


My daughter and her entire 3rd grade class was wearing HOT PINK SKIN TIGHT STRETCH pants, and snug white t shirts, pink cowboy hats and white cowboy boots. We were told to put make up on them, with bright pink lipstick. She wears a size 12, her pants were a size 8.

My daughter did not look nine... she looked 13. She is tall, almost 5 foot and weighs only 75lbs. We together have worked very hard at dressing her in ways that hides what is going on with her body.... mostly because she is a small B cup, and getting her mama's wonderful baby hips.

We talk about the wonderful stuff that is going on with her body... and how she is not ready... she wants to still be a little girl.
It kills me that there are mothers who are encouraging, and forcing (my daughter was forced) into wearing outfits that are not appropriate for anyone under the age of 18.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by FondestBianca

for me I think it's a safegaurd. Something we have to think about now with society being so different. I've been able to hear gradeschool age playground conversation when they didn't think I was paying attention. I think little girls shouldn't have to pay attention to the skirts but, when little boys are doing naughty things and teaseing (not your oldschool "I see Paris, I see France") in a very sexually aggressive way and older boys are paying WAY too much attention

This is nothing new. I can tell you from personal experience. I was harassed in primary school by older boys. That was about 30 years ago. I'm sure I wasn't the first girl in history that had happened to.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Honestly, 7 years old seems really too young to come out to me, so it seems like it would be too young for the rest of this stuff.

Why? My 4yo started talking about pretty girls when he was 3. He saw girls. He liked girls. He thought they were pretty. He doesn't talk about boys the same way. That's perfectly natural. He's not sexually active nor does he know anything about that. If we believe (as I do) that we are born however we are, then homosexuality could come up for a homosexual child as young as 3 just not in the adult way we think of sexuality. Maybe it's a good thing that children that young are starting to feel comfortable about being open about those feelings rather than feeling like they have to hide who they are.

[rhubarbarin]

Why? My 4yo started talking about pretty girls when he was 3. He saw girls. He liked girls. He thought they were pretty. He doesn't talk about boys the same way. That's perfectly natural. He's not sexually active nor does he know anything about that. If we believe (as I do) that we are born however we are, then homosexuality could come up for a homosexual child as young as 3 just not in the adult way we think of sexuality. Maybe it's a good thing that children that young are starting to feel comfortable about being open about those feelings rather than feeling like they have to hide who they are.

Yeah, around 3 or 4 kids become pretty sexual.. though they may not be sexually active in any way for a long time yet, they definately have those feelings and attractions.

Kids aren't really 'innocent' in the way a lot of parents think they are.. ie completely pure and non-sexual.

I know I had a lot of sexual feelings/fantasies as a very young child, played sexual games with my friends, and started masturbating while I was still very much a kid (8 or 9 years old). And I didn't go through puberty until I was 14.

This is nothing new. I can tell you from personal experience. I was harassed in primary school by older boys. That was about 30 years ago. I'm sure I wasn't the first girl in history that had happened to.

Amen to that. Unfortunately sexual harassment is as old as the species. If anything I think it's a lot better these days. While it still goes on, once it's discovered there is a zero tolerance policy in schools. 30 years ago or more, before feminism really took hold, I can hardly imagine how bad it was.. try reading a romance novel from 1978, there's really been a sea change in what is acceptable behavior from a man towards a woman.

[littlemizflava]

under skirts my dd wears short/boxers in place of panties. she wears them with pants also. i like the bra tank tops for when they are wearing a top or dress that is loose fitting and shows their breasts. i dont think i am forcing her to grow up. it is knowing the line between forced growing up and covering knowing there are sick people out in the world now that was not so known when we grew up. and yes i think it is 100% wrong to have a girl wearing padded bra's and thongs.

[MarineWife]

This is probably getting OT but I finally figured out what is bothering me about the idea that little girls need to wear bloomers or shorts or something over their underwear under a skirt. Why are we putting the responsibility for perversion on these little girls as if wearing shorts under a skirt would really stop a perverts from thinking whatever they think when they see young children? It makes me think of the idea that a woman (or girl) who gets raped asked for it because she was out too late or her skirt was too short or her pants were too tight. So, if a little girl does not have shorts on under her skirt and she pulls her skirt up innocently or hangs upside down on the monkey bars at the park and some pervert gets off on that, it's her fault? No way! Put the responsibility where it belongs, on the perverts. Of course, that does not mean that I think we should put our children on display. It just means we shouldn't make our little girls feel like they are somehow responsible for that sort of thing.

I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a little girl wearing a thong. I don't wear thongs because they are sexy or even because I'm worried about panty lines. I wear them because I find them more comfortable than regular underwear. The push up bra is another thing. It depends on why someone wants to wear something like that. If a girl wants a push up bra because she feels inadequate, I'd want to talk to her about her feelings about herself and her appearance/body image.

[OhDang]

Originally Posted by UUMom

I dont see any bloomers. And even if there were matching panties...what's the difference in the color of the undies? It's still short. lol You can see through the first dress layer, under which is an ever shorter layer.

I agree that clothing is not the issue, at any rate.

The photo you posted was of Shirley Temple. yes she had bloomers, I am a die hard shirley temple fan and she always wore very short babydoll dresses with matching bloomers underneath.

Anyone who thinks she looks oversexed is a bit of a perv (general Anyone not saying anyone here does)

[dawningmama]

My kids go to pre-teen night at the YMCA and that starts at age 8. We have preteen days with the homeschool group and the min. age for that is 10. I think the numbers are kind of random. I do consider my 8 year old and certainly my 10 year old (who is very into romance and puberty and alla that) at a completely different life stage than my 6 year old. For me, that's what "preteen" is about.

I don't really have an issue with calling 8 year olds pre-teens. I don't see it all that differently from when I was growing up. I don't recall use of the word pre-teen but I did feel like menarche was my entrance into adolescence and that happened at age 9 for me.

Originally Posted by rhubarbarin

I really don't think all that much has changed with actual kids in the last 10, 20, 30 years. What has changed are our perceptions, and media attention. I don't think there are many more pedophiles now, for instance, then there were then. There's just a hysteria/hyper-awareness about them now, and more ways to catch them.

Yeah, that.

I was doing a bunch more in 5th grade than my son is doing now because I had a LOT more unattended time. Hours alone with my friends every day without an adult in sight. My kids get hardly any of that. Sometimes I wonder if that is doing them a disservice.