Accused of abuse - Page 2

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Because children, especially toddlers like two year olds, rarely comply with a requirement to sit (just the way this OP's charge did not sit when requested to while standing on the chair). This requires forcing them, then they defend themselves, which makes the adult angry, which lead the adult to require them to sit in any way they can....then the shoving happens.

Not saying anyone here does that or did that. Just a conclusion from working with typical and non-typical kids in daycare and respite care settings for a decade or so. It informed my own choices with my own kids.

I have to agree with this, even if time outs are relatively "peaceful" at 2, I've seen many a child at 3 or 4 resisting a time out and then it turns into a physical struggle where the child is forced to wherever the spot is - and while the caregiver may be able to keep their cool emotionally, a child who is physically struggling with you is more likely to get injured. Which is one reason why I'm not a big fan of time outs. I've had a friend who did give her little girl a nursemaid's elbow over enforcing a time out at 3 yrs old, and she wasn't being particularly rough. It can happen *really* easily.

I would have absolutely taken the child out of the restaurant for a bit, but probably would have picked him up instead of walking with his hand in mine.

I'm not against physical separation and firm addressing of aggression issues, I'm just not particularly for traditional, "Supernanny-type" structured time outs.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by barefootpoetry

I assume you're referring to my post. I never said discipline and punishment were anything alike. And yes, I'm speaking about hypothetical parents...we've all seen them. Tuning out their kids who are screaming their heads off for whatever reason. I was referring to this kind of situation because perhaps the lady who accused the OP of abuse would prefer such behavior over tactfully and gently removing the child from the scene?

Since no one did that, there's no way of knowing that this person would have preferred that behaviour. Perhaps she would have preferred lovingly pulling the toddler onto the nanny's lap and interesting the child in another activity (redirection) or taking the child to see the fish tank (more redirection) or singing a song or ......

If the child hit, she might prefer all of the above or gently taking the child outside for a walk around or to the bathroom to play in the sink for a bit....

She wouldn't necessarily prefer neglect.

I'm not suggesting that children be kept separate....Both my kids went through a period where restaurants just weren't very much fun for us, so we switched to picnics from around 18 months to somewhere in the 3's. We hs and are out and around the world throughout our day.

If I read the OP correctly, the 2 year old hit after having to sit in a chair. That doesn't sound like the ability to wait patiently in a restaurant. Kids sometimes make these leaps overnight...it can be hard to keep up with the changes as they learn and grow!

[PassionateWriter]

Im another who is against the traditional Super Nanny techniques. And it does tend to lend itself to less than peaceful discipline. My 2 yo was getting very very antsy last night at dinner out (I had already finished) and we left to go sit in the car and listen to music and wait for the rest of our party to finish. that wouldnt have happened at the beginning of the meal, but i have always found (in 17 years) an alternative to the time outs. time ins are productive but dont include clocks or "ignoring" a child.

the lady was out of line. but i dont consider time outs to be GD.

[Equuskia]

Considering what I've seen lots of parents do when I go out, which is either ignoring the child while he/she disturbs the rest of the patrons, or smack them in public, or take them out for a spanking, I'd prefer the time-out.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by Equuskia

Considering what I've seen lots of parents do when I go out, which is either ignoring the child while he/she disturbs the rest of the patrons, or smack them in public, or take them out for a spanking, I'd prefer the time-out.

The manner in which the child was removed disturbed a patron.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I'm not suggesting that children be kept separate....Both my kids went through a period where restaurants just weren't very much fun for us, so we switched to picnics from around 18 months to somewhere in the 3's. We hs and are out and around the world throughout our day.
!

Oh, and this too. While they might be OK for 25-30 min in a restaurant, when the trend begins that they get wound up and antsy at the end and it's more work to keep them "managed" than it is enjoyable, we stopped going out to eat for a while. For DS that was about 18 months to 3 years. For DD, well, it's been since about 3 months ago, and she'll be 2 in late June. Going out to eat at a sit down restaurant just isn't valuable enough for us to be frustrated regularly with normal developmental behavior, and I'm not of the "they have to learn by experiencing it" crowd. From my experience, when they hit a developmental capability they hit it and will be able to handle things whether they've been 'practiced/trained' or not.

[lovingmommyhood]

Originally Posted by chfriend

The manner in which the child was removed disturbed a patron.

Sounds like this patron was already disturbed before the incident. Mentally, that is.

[Breeder]

As the mother of a child who has never 'resisted' a time out other than crying or grumbling I have to say that it does not exactly follow that you will be forceful with a child if you use time outs eventually.

Once DS was old enough that redirection did not work, (around 2 1/2 or 3) we began using time out - ie: removing him from the situation to a safe place, allowing him time to cool down (we didn't and do not use a strict amt of time just noticed when he cooled off which was always visable and very quick - his has my quick but also quickly deflating temper) then we'd go in and talk to him about what happened.

Now at almost six when he's angry he removes himself from the situation (like going into his room when he's frustrated and coming out when he's ready).

He has never been shoved, hit, shamed, threatened or yelled at. Always consistantly gentle but firmly told to sit down in 'time out'. Of course I am his mother and if I were a daycare person and not so emotionally attached I might not be able to accomplish this... I have no way of knowing that.

Now actually ON TOPIC: It's nice to know that the woman has the interest of children at heart but I understand how incredibly hurtful it is to be accused of something you did not do. I think the word "abuse" is tossed around too much these days, and it is degrading to those who have truly suffered from abuse.

[purple_kangaroo]

Wow. Whether someone would completely agree with exactly how you handled the situation or not, I can't imagine how anyone could feel that non-violently putting a child in time-out would be considered abuse. Even if they felt you should have handled it differently, there's a huge difference between less-than-perfect parenting and actual abuse!

[ThreeBeans]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I came to believe that if one uses timeouts, one will eventually shove a child.

Excuse me? Bit of a leap there, doncha think?

[ThreeBeans]

Oh, and OP, I would have done the same thing.

I am one who believes that the judicious use of the time-out is quite beneficial to all concerned.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by ThreeBeans

Excuse me? Bit of a leap there, doncha think?

Asked and answered.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood

Sounds like this patron was already disturbed before the incident. Mentally, that is.

That's one possibility. But this child did not disturb patrons or throw food. Or any other disruptive behavior beyond his own table.

Am I understanding that it okay to disrupt other patrons to enforce a time out?

[nova22]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Am I understanding that it okay to disrupt other patrons to enforce a time out?

It sounds like the little boy was disrupting at least two patrons before his mother decided (wisely, IMO) to remove him from the situation. He swung his arm at her, and then hit the boy next to him.

Originally Posted by thechuzzle

I asked him nicely to have a seat, and he swung his arm in my general direction. ... Following that he proceeded to hit the little boy next to him as he was angry with what I had just told him.

She had toys for him, she gave him a gentle warning, and she quietly removed him from the situation. Frankly, if she were in a crowded restaurant, someone would have been offended with her no matter what she did. Someone would say she should have spanked him. Someone would say she should have left him at the table. Someone would say she should have stayed home with her kids. It's not always possible to avoid offending or disrupting EVERYONE.

[momeg]

Originally Posted by barefootpoetry

Geez, what a nosy old biddy. I wonder if she gets equally up in arms when parents are ignoring their kids in the restaurant while they scream and cry and throw food at other patrons. Cuz certainly that would be better than "abusing" them with discipline.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...that is so true.

[KBecks]

I would love to let that lady loose on some other parents I see around town.

I'm sorry that you dealt with her though.

[Janelovesmax]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

Oh, and this too. While they might be OK for 25-30 min in a restaurant, when the trend begins that they get wound up and antsy at the end and it's more work to keep them "managed" than it is enjoyable, we stopped going out to eat for a while. For DS that was about 18 months to 3 years. For DD, well, it's been since about 3 months ago, and she'll be 2 in late June. Going out to eat at a sit down restaurant just isn't valuable enough for us to be frustrated regularly with normal developmental behavior, and I'm not of the "they have to learn by experiencing it" crowd. From my experience, when they hit a developmental capability they hit it and will be able to handle things whether they've been 'practiced/trained' or not.

Yes, we only just started bringing our son out to restaurants more frequently, he is almost 3. Every time we would go to a restaurant, it would be a fiasco. He could only handle quick breakfasts at the diner where everyone knows us and knows to bring our food and check quick.

[Janelovesmax]

Originally Posted by KBecks

I would love to let that lady loose on some other parents I see around town.

I'm sorry that you dealt with her though.

I second that.

[Janelovesmax]

I have to ask something, perhaps a dumb question, but I feel like the OP removed her son from potentially even more diffucult situation, if she didn't remove him, he could have started crying or hitting even more and OP responded in the timely manner. Additionally, OP called it a "time-out", but she also walked out with a child outside (obviously) and sat next to him, to me that sounds more like a way to "cool-off", more of a "time-in", does anyone else see it that way?
I feel like "time-outs" is when you remove and separate your child from yourself in a certain part of the room, where he is separate from everyone, including the person who is giving the time-out.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way OP handled situation and I would have done the same thing, otherwise I would START YELLING which would be even more disturbing.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by nova22

Frankly, if she were in a crowded restaurant, someone would have been offended with her no matter what she did. .

IME, this is absolutely true.

And I agree with pp who noted that there is a difference between less than perfect (GD) parenting and actual abuse.

OP, if I took anything from this experience, it would be to realize that someone thought you were dragging the child. Whether you were or were not dragging the child behind you, I can't say. Dragging is definitely dangerous and not gentle. Although I have been in many situations were we needed to exit immediately (because dc was quite definitely offending the entire restaurant, lol), and there is no gentle way to get the child to follow. In those situations, I scoop the child up and GO!

Of course, the best case scenario is to have the child follow along willingly. Playful parenting strategies can be great for that. You could remind "stay in you seat" and "arms to yourself" (or whatever you like to say), and if he is unable to cooperate with those expectations you could simply move on to "Hey, want to go outside for a game of 'I see something'?" or "How many fish do you think were in that tank, anyway? Guess and we'll go count them."