No Success yet with remineralizing 26 month old HELP

[misseks]

Dd2 has one brown spot on the inside of two of her top teeth. Two spots. And they are about the colour of a penny in darkness.

I've been attmepting remineralizing for three weeks, but I can't see a difference yet...(in fact I noticed the second brown spot during the second week, so did a swift and definite night-wean) here's what we're doing:

-CLO 1/2 tsp every day
-Nightweaned
-Cooking with wild organic bison broth (rice, noodles, vegetables everything I can think of)
-No more naptime bottles with Daddy
-xylitol gum in the car

-Carefully brushing at noon with no toothpaste, just a dry toothbrush
-Thoroughly brushing at night with a kiddie flouride toothpaste

HELP! Should I not use flouride toothpaste ? No debate here about the hazards of flouride for the brain etc, I'm just working on one crisis at a time!

Do I need more CLO? More time? More brushing? Less fruit? More fruit? I'm majorly stressed about this, and I never thought I would be.

[beaner&tiegs]

Hey Kate - I really don't know of anything else to add, but have you read Ksenia's very extensive routine and research in the other dental thread? She may have more to add in that. Have you taken her to the dentist to see what they recommend? They may not want to fill it. Another thought is I know people who have completely eliminated all sugars (including fruits) and brushed after every eating to heal teeth - good luck with it!!!!!

[tanyalynn]

I think the biggest thing that you aren't doing that is recommended by the other threads (the WAPF portion of other threads, I mean) is a source of vit K2, what Price called Activator X. Some folks do butter oil (the supplement, they buy it online), I use Thorne's vitamin k2, a synthetic vitamin (not from a food). I'm doing it for other reasons, my son esp needs it to balance the A & D in the CLO. That seems like the most obvious thing to me. Other food sources of K2 are eggs (the yolks), liver, maybe kidney, um... some more unusual stuff like fish roe, I think. Probably others, but I don't remember right now. Oh, butter--good quality butter, really orange in color (we can't have dairy, so all the dairy ideas escaped me).

Good luck!

[flowmom]

misseks. How did I miss that you are dealing with this too

I've posted our routine below. I agree with TanyaLopez about getting a source of Vitamin K2. The cheapest source is butter bought in the summer from cattle grazing on grass (call the dairy) - stock up and freeze. In Vancouver you can get it in the summer from Avalon.

Make sure you are using a *tiny* amount of fluoride toothpaste to avoid dental and other problems from fluorosis.

The decayed areas being dark isn't necessarily a problem - secondary dentin can be dark in colour. Active decay can be too of course . As far as I know, a dentist would be looking for the decayed areas feeling glassy rather than sticky once remineralization has occurred. Also, keep an eye on any areas where the enamel looks white and opaque - those are demineralized areas ("white lesion stage"). If remineralization is occurring you would hope to see those areas appear more normal. I am hesitant to poke around in my dd's decay because the tooth structure is quite fragile once decay sets in.

Watch for any sign of pain including changes in eating patterns. I know, hard to tell. I would go conventional ASAP at the first sign of pain.

Your stock needs to be made with bones cooked for many hours with cider vinegar or wine to draw out the minerals - commercial stock may not be adequate. Consider nori seaweed as a source of minerals as well.

You have to do xylitol 5 or 6 times per day to get any dental benefit - this has been thoroughly researched.

Get MI Paste without fluoride and brush with it daily, not rinsing for about 30 minutes preferably. Or apply it with a qtip while your dd is sleeping.

Eat cheese frequently, esp. at the end of snacks and meals - contains anticariogenic enzymes.

It is sooo stressful. Good luck :


-----------------
Dd (23 mo old) is my second child and she has severe Early Childhood Caries (ECC), with decay on 9/16 of her teeth. The decay is into the dentin in six of her teeth, but so far the pulp is not yet affected. My first child is 4.5 yo and has no dental problems.

This is what we are doing about it:

Stopping decay:
---------------
* we've had the first of three HealOzone treatments

Remineralizing:
---------------
* frequent cheese
* we are currently using the HealOzone/CurOzone remineralizing liquid between HealOzone treatments (contains a tiny amount of fluoride) applied via Qtip when dd is sleeping
* when we are not using the above liquid, we apply MI Paste (without fluoride) via Qtip while dd is sleeping

Xylitol:
--------
* the whole family is getting 2 Spry Mints (Berryblast) 5x per day for a total of 10 per day (they do not taste like mint)

Diet:
-----
* stopped all dried fruit (dh was feeding it to her regularly before)
* cut back sugar treats (they were occasional before)
* reduced refined carbs (haven't stopped completely because sometimes we just need her to eat)
* increased meat and cheese (we had reduced our intake because of a serious health condition that dh has)
* increasing frequency of bone stock
* dd almost never had juice and still doesn't

Supplements:
------------
* high vitamin cod liver oil - dd takes 2 Natural Factors Super Cod Liver Oil capsules (400 IU of Vitamin D)
* X-Factor Gold High Vitamin Butter Oil supplements (I am taking 3 capsules per day and hoping she is getting it via my breastmilk)

Hygiene
-------
* brushing 2x per day using a Sonicare electric toothbrush with an ultracompact head
* in the morning we use Spry Infant Tooth Gel (sweet but otherwise tasteless)
* in the evening we use PerioPaste (minty, dd doesn't like it)
* when I have to force dd to brush her teeth (songs/games aren't working), I lie her down on the bed and I sit down with my legs in a "V", her head goes between my legs and I pin her arms under my legs - this is a gentle way of getting the job done as quickly as possible
* we watch a fun video after brushing

Breastfeeding
-------------
* we are breastfeeding on demand from sunrise until bedtime
* we recently nightweaned ... although I do not believe that breastfeeding causes ECC, I have reluctantly concluded that once a child has ECC, nightnursing could contribute to making the decay worse
* dd is probably making up for the reduced nightnursing by nursing more in the morning

Our plan is to get dd's teeth treated ASAP if she starts to have any dental pain. We would go the GA route as I have safety concerns about
in-office use of chloral hydrate as recommended by dd's dentist. I don't think that nitrous oxide would be enough for the amount of
treatment that dd would require.

Ciao, Ksenia

Links
-----
HealOzone:
http://www.ozonedentist.ca/treatment.php
MI Paste (contains milk protein):
http://www.gcamerica.com/mipaste.html
internet source of MI Paste:
http://www.dentist.net/prospec-mipaste-recaldent.asp
local source of MI Paste:
http://www.vedderdental.ca/
Spry xylitol mints:
http://www.xlear.com/spry/dds/
Canadian source of Spry mints:
http://www.aviva.ca/shop/products.as...3924&catid=145
Spry Infant Tooth Gel:
http://www.dentist.net/spry-infant-tooth-gel.asp
PerioPaste:
http://www.bioprodental.com/PerioPaste.html
local source of PerioPaste:
http://www.naturesdesigndentalspa.com/
Natural Factors Super Cod Liver Oil:
http://tinyurl.com/2fcblm
X-Factor Gold™ High Vitamin Butter Oil
http://www.drrons.com/x-factor-butter-oil.htm
Canadian Source of X-Factor Gold™ High Vitamin Butter Oil:
http://www.familyherbalclinic.com/gp...st_May2008.pdf
Sonicare:
http://www.sonicare.com/brushes/default.asp
we bought our Sonicare at the local Shoppers Drug Mart, but ordered the ultracompact heads from dentist.net
Crawford the Cat toothbrushing video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdhptrhn2tM

[dds07]

if they are ONLY brown then there is a chance they can be remineralized. if there is any cavitation (a hole) then there is no chance and they really need to be filled or they will start to hurt.

[flowmom]

Originally Posted by dds07

if they are ONLY brown then there is a chance they can be remineralized. if there is any cavitation (a hole) then there is no chance and they really need to be filled or they will start to hurt.

That is not accurate.

[juliebird]

Ksenia- why isn't it accurate?

I'm looking at my 18 mo LO with no spots but definite cavitation on his two front teeth. His first dentist appt is next friday so i haven't had a chance to get any details from the dentist yet but I've been reading all the posts I can find on mothering as well as links that relate.

so i'm just wondering if you have a link or could share what is inaccurate about the "no hope for remineralizing" once there is cavitation?

BTW, thanks for all the great posts you've put out there...I've read and reread them in gratitude for the super detail.

[AngelBee]

: Taking notes for Angelo.

Thank you for posting your routine Ksenia

[dds07]

Originally Posted by Ksenia

That is not accurate.

Sorry, but I've seen it...lots and lots...it is unfortunate and I know people hope and want it not to be true, but sadly it is accurate. If you looked in mouths all day long, every day, you would get a good idea of what actually goes on. Dentists see people every day with cavities. All kinds of people who have tried all kinds of things. Some are successful, and some really really want to be successful, but are not. Up to cavitation, remin is definitely possible and a very very good thing. Much of Ksenia's info is accurate as far as active vs. arrested decay, white spots, etc. but after there is a physical hole--no remin. Sorry.

[dds07]

here are some articles you can read I'm not going to get into a pointless fight, but you should look at ALL the info for both sides and make a decision for yourself. . I have personally seen kids with cavities that are in so much pain because their parents wanted to wait and see or tried other methods, but just waited too long. As I write a lot, when things are small, they are easy to fix. When they are big, they are more complicated all the way around. For the kid, for the parents, for the wallet, for the dentist. Remineralization definitely is a wonderful thing and is very valid and I'm a huge advocate of it, but like everything, it has a certain place and a certain applicability. It isn't a blanket that works for all types of lesions. If you aren't experienced in looking at cavities, it may be difficult to tell. Everyone's perspective is a bit different. That is where I'm coming from. Good luck!

Sorry- I may have repeated a couple of these...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSumhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...gdbfrom=pubmed
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.uic.edu/classes/peri/peri...c4/modrisk.htm
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...tpnd.alexandra
http://http://jdr.iadrjournals.org/c...uppl_1/C39.pdf
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-96695188.html
http://www.pennwelldentalgroup.com/d....wdjournal.com

[juliebird]

Dds07

Thanks for posting these links! I've looked at the first couple and am learning that it (like so many other things) is more complex than I initially thought. Can't wait until I see the dentist on Friday for my DD.

I appreciate it very much.

[flowmom]

Originally Posted by dds07

Much of Ksenia's info is accurate as far as active vs. arrested decay, white spots, etc. but after there is a physical hole--no remin.

Perhaps we are having a semantic disagreement? To clarify, once there is a hole I agree that it is not possible to remineralize or regenerate the enamel, because it is gone. It is, however, possible to remineralize the dentin in the hole. For example, in a study on polyol chewing gum, they observed "rehardening of dentine caries lesions". This happens through the formation of tertiary or "reparative" dentin, which is typically harder than regular dentin. The hole doesn't get filled in, but the area is somewhat more protected. It is unfortunate that most dental practices are woefully ignorant about this process, but some holistic dentists understand this process . I think that we have actually achieved some remineralization through what we've been doing . This has been objectively confirmed through Diagnodent readings of decayed areas and the areas feeling smooth and hard with the explorer. Dd's decay was deep into the dentin (enamel looked like it was melting away - at least half is gone on some teeth). Other parents have reported similar results using similar protocols to mine.

[juliebird]

oh that makes sense

I actually just read something about the hardening of the dentin. Ksenia- how's your nightweaning going? It's something I'm considering for my 18 mo but I really don't want to do it but i'm thinking i really should.

sorry for change of subject. (feel free to redirect me if this is an inappropriate way to ask...i'm still new at this stuff

[flowmom]

Originally Posted by dds07

I have personally seen kids with cavities that are in so much pain because their parents wanted to wait and see or tried other methods, but just waited too long.

I totally agree that this is a risk. Cavities are not a joke and can lead to very serious health problems beyond the mouth! I was prepared to give us a relatively short amount of time for things to work, then I would definitely seek conventional drill n fill treatment. I think we may have bought ourselves some time by stopping the decay and with confirmed remineralization of the dentin, but that may not happen in all cases.

[dds07]

Originally Posted by Ksenia

Perhaps we are having a semantic disagreement? To clarify, once there is a hole I agree that it is not possible to remineralize or regenerate the enamel, because it is gone. It is, however, possible to remineralize the dentin in the hole. This happens through the formation of tertiary or "reparative" dentin, which is typically harder than regular dentin. The hole doesn't get filled it, but the area is somewhat more protected.

Yes, this is correct. I think we were looking at it differently- I was looking at remin of enamel because no dentin, not even tertiary dentin is not as strong as enamel.

Originally Posted by Ksenia

It is unfortunate that most dental practices are woefully ignorant about this process

I definitely wouldn't say most dental practices don't understand this, because it is required curriculum in dental school.