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S/O: Disowning or Ignoring those who circ - Page 2

post #21 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntoninBeGonin View Post
~Em~, you come across as very pro-circ (at least by my standards).
I'm not. I've just had lots of penis problems at this house!

ETA - If by "pro-circ" you mean more tolerant of everyone, then yes, you are probably right. I try to be tolerant of everyone (regardless of the issue - it could be BF/FF or whatever) in the hopes that gentle persuasion will change their opinions because in my experience being shunned or lectured or intimidated has the direct opposite effect. By no means do I mean to dismiss others' feelings her as I understand where you are coming from. I just feel that the "cure" is more effectively achieved by a different set of tools than some here.
post #22 of 110
Thread Starter 
Yes, that's it! You seem pro-circ to me because you aren't actively bashing it like I'm used to reading on this forum. This is case against circumcision, so there is no need to tread lightly here . I'm so used to people being loudly, unapologetically, and strongly anti-circ that when I read comments made in a more neutral fashion (such as yours) they worry me.

So it's all cool . I understand what you're saying.
post #23 of 110
I think you have to decide how you want to live your life, and how you want to treat people and family members.

She hurt her son. She indirectly hurt you by hurting her son. Whether you want to exclude her from your life is a very personal and difficult decision.

Best wishes.
post #24 of 110
Thread Starter 
Psssst

Hey folks, I'm not looking for support in my decision. I don't feel bad about my reaction to her cutting her son. I appreciate the comments saying that you would have done the same in my position, but don't feel that you need to consider my feelings before you respond. I just wanted to start a thread where we could discuss what it's like to have a relationship changed by circumcision.
post #25 of 110
I ended a friendship over it. It had been a pretty close friendship, nothing like losing a sister though. She had a lot of disgusting, abusive attitudes about it to... wasn't just misguided beliefs or anything like that. More than anything it really just brought to light what an ignorant, selfish person she is.
post #26 of 110
I have to admit to playing the ostrich.

My best friend was due 10 weeks before I was. We knew I was having a boy, and they thought they were having a girl. I've been very open about my views on circumcision in the past, and I know she reads my blog regularly where I have posted on the topic of circumcision on more than one occasion. I didn't actually confront her about it because they were having a girl, so it didn't matter.

But out came a boy. I didn't talk to her for a couple of weeks after the birth (she ended up with a c-section and was in hospital for nearly a week) and it didn't actually occur to me to ask. After all... why would she, right?

Once I thought about it I was actually afraid to ask. I knew that (a) her husband is circ'd, (b) they live in a region where circ is more common, and (c) it seems to me that her husband calls the shots on pretty much everything. So I was afraid to ask because I was afraid I wouldn't like the answer. And I knew that it would change the way I felt about one of my best friends-- there is no way I wouldn't lose respect for her and judge her for her decision.

One day my Facebook status remarked on the fact that we had my son's first vaccinations that day. She messaged me saying "good luck with the vaccinations-- they weren't nearly as tough on me as his circumcision!". I got nauseous. I know that she had intentionally 'broken' the news to me like this knowing that I would be upset. I've never spoken to her about it. And when we saw them last (don't see them often, living on opposite ends of the country and all) I did notice that she never changed his diaper in front of me.

We're still friends, but it's not the same. And God help her if she ever brings up the topic, cause I'm not holding back just to spare her feelings on this one.
post #27 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Em~ View Post
I'm not. I've just had lots of penis problems at this house!

ETA - If by "pro-circ" you mean more tolerant of everyone, then yes, you are probably right. I try to be tolerant of everyone (regardless of the issue - it could be BF/FF or whatever) in the hopes that gentle persuasion will change their opinions because in my experience being shunned or lectured or intimidated has the direct opposite effect. By no means do I mean to dismiss others' feelings her as I understand where you are coming from. I just feel that the "cure" is more effectively achieved by a different set of tools than some here.
I completely agree with you on that approach. I will be strong on the issue, but I will take off from their point of view first. Its important to give understanding to the people you speak with first, or they will close themselves off to anything you say.

Although even though I will try to argue from their point of view, deep inside I see male circumcision is being just as wrong as female circumcision (not because of physical damage) but because its taking away the same basic human rights, that we as humans should do everything we can to protect.
post #28 of 110
I *wish* I could end my relationship w/my MIL for nagging me about having my son intact... does that count?

Actually, I have a couple friends I just don't.want.to.know. I talked to them about it, I hope they wouldn't do it, but I don't want to ruin our relationship over it, so I try not to think about it. I don't know what I'll do if I find out. cry, probably.
post #29 of 110
Total dealbreaker for me. No question.
post #30 of 110
Yes, I have ended a relationship because of circ. In fact, I posted about it here.. I don't mind posting about it again, though.

I recently ended a practically lifelong (from toddlerhood) close relationship with my cousin, who I assume just had her new baby boy. We live over 900 miles apart, but we usually spoke 2-3 times a week over the phone.

While she was early in her 2nd pregnancy, we'd talked briefly about circumcision (she'd circ'd her first out of complete ignorance). I'd brought it up here and there, but never got into any *deep* discussions.. I kind of didn't want to go there if I didn't absolutely have to at that point. When she found out it was a boy, I asked her quite a few times if she'd let me send her some information.. and she SWORE to me that she would allow me to educate her, even though she didn't think her husband would "allow" it. She was definitely a bit reluctant in the beginning, but like I said, she swore that she would read everything that I sent her. She knew that it was important..

I gathered info for a couple months.. info that I'd gotten from the wonderful people here. I printed off sooooooooooo much to send to her. It ended up being about 2 inches thick. I read through everything that I'd printed.. and I highlighted specific things that I thought would grab their attention and made my little notes for her. During this whole time, we were still having small conversations about it here and there. I would tell her what I'd read that day and that I really thought it was something they needed to read. I went at it from every angle.. from looking like daddy, to religion, to the HIV and UTI myths, the possible issues with breastfeeding, etc. I wanted to leave no stone left unturned.

Not ONCE did I suspect what she'd do with the information when she got it. She never called me to say she gotten it like she said that she would.. she sent me a letter. In the letter, she said that as she thumbed through the top papers, her heart started racing, and she proceeded to throw it all into the trash!! She also said that she was sorry, but she KNEW the whole time that we were discussing it that she had no intention of reading anything I'd sent. She didn't WANT to know about it and still planned to circumcise him. She just didn't want to tell me. I poured my heart and soul into it for that baby boy and she didn't care.. it just went into the trash. She lied to me for months.. and it absolutely broke my heart.

I called her to let her know I'd gotten her letter.. I bawled my head off. I told her that I would call her again once I calmed down. That never happened.. so, I did the same thing she did. I wrote her a totally heartfelt letter, and included a tiny bit of information about circumcision and the only remotely acceptable forms of pain relief if they did go through with it. I asked for her to call me when she was ready.. I left it up to her whether we spoke again. She never called. We haven't spoken since.

I assume she's had the little guy.. she was due last month. Considering she hasn't called me... I can only assume the worst. I haven't decided yet if I want to call and congratulate her. I just don't know..

Oh wow, this got long. I'm sorry!
post #31 of 110
Quote:
Have you ever ended or severely halted any relationship with someone after they put their son through circumcision? I'm talking specifically about those who still have their son circumicised even after you've provided sufficient information against the surgery. (I don't want this discussion to include how you feel about people you've met after they've had their son cut).
Yep. She knew everything we know here and in the end her thought was "well I think it's better cut and besides, he can always restore so it's all good".
post #32 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntoninBeGonin View Post
Yes, that's it! You seem pro-circ to me because you aren't actively bashing it like I'm used to reading on this forum. This is case against circumcision, so there is no need to tread lightly here . I'm so used to people being loudly, unapologetically, and strongly anti-circ that when I read comments made in a more neutral fashion (such as yours) they worry me.
Forgive me for my off-topicness, but this is the first time I've heard someone acknowledge this phenomenon, and I had to jump in! I think a lot of genuine anti-circ mamas like me don't bother posting here because they know that they'll be treated with deep suspicion unless they include a small anti-circ diatribe in each post. I don't want negative assumptions made about my views on circumcision just because I keep things short and to the point, ya know? (Maybe if I used 32 consecutive "intactivist" smilies as my signature, I'd be off the hook?)

Ok. Digression over.
post #33 of 110
I don't know what I'd do.

I was of the "not for us, but it's not a big deal anyway" school of thought until after SJ was born, actually. Our Ped is strongly anti-circ, so that ratified our "why bother to circ" thought ... I didn't do a lot of research though, it just didn't make sense to us to do it.

Once I started reading here and doing research, though, I became much more informed. In the meantime, a dear friend has had three sons. The first two were born before I was so strongly anti-circ, and circ never came up in conversation. I guess I must confess that I was a coward, and felt uncomfortable bringing it up prior to #3's birth (and was hoping she'd have a dd anyway as she so wanted one) .... I never asked what she thought or knew about circ. And when she called me with questions about cloth diapering and mentioned her ds' circ, I felt *awful.* I let her, and him, down by not asking her anything about how she felt about circ, or sending links to her or etc. At the same time, I'm not cutting off ties with her, because it is MY fault I didn't say anything; and knowing her, I think she did it because she was 'supposed to,' without a lot of research, but believing it was for the best. Not an informed decision.

On the other hand, I have had the 'no circ' conversation with one of my sisters (who had her first bio babe this spring). They had a dd; if after our conversation, they'd had a ds and circ'd, it would have been very difficult.

I think one thing we need to always examine when these circumstances come to pass [where someone circ's despite discussing it and researching it with us] - the first question we need to ask ourselves, is what can we change about our approach? Was there something different we could have tried? Less overt? More overt? Were we too soft-spoken, or too harsh? Did we accidentally ratify some of their concerns?

There is a huge societal pressure (still) towards circ. And it's hard for some people to overcome. I think one of the things that happens is that they *choose not to believe* the factual research presented, because it contradicts the 'reality' they believe in. It's too difficult for them to question that reality and contradict it. So - are those people making a fully informed decision? [In either direction - circ or intact]

I struggle with this issue sometimes (beyond circumcision, or breastfeeding, or whatever). I was raised to be a questioner, and a noncomformist, and to research things. But I know one of my siblings would absolutely circ (and in fact did, before I knew enough to talk to her about it), because that's what everyone else does. How do we reach THOSE people? And is it wise to cut off contact with them (does that disjunction prevent us from reaching them the next time, whether we're talking global warming or circ or whatever issue?)..... At the same time, how can we maintain cordial relationships with someone who'd do something so abhorrent? It makes me sad knowing that my friend's boys are growing up circ'd, that my nephew is circ'd.
post #34 of 110
Quote:
Have you ever ended or severely halted any relationship with someone after they put their son through circumcision? I'm talking specifically about those who still have their son circumicised even after you've provided sufficient information against the surgery. (I don't want this discussion to include how you feel about people you've met after they've had their son cut).
Yes.

I lost so sleep during "Art friend's" pregnancy. I spent so much time planting seeds took care to nurture them.

She said, "Look- I'm NOT convicted like you are..." She circ'd the first baby WITH ALL THAT KNOWLEDGE! Then the second pregnancy, a boy. I put in my effort to save him as well.

She was STUBBORN AND A WHOLE LIST OF UA VIOLATIONS, the baby got circ'd. She did it again. I'm still fuming about it!

Not only could I NOT EVER SPEAK TO HER AGAIN, I had to switch churches because every time I see her I get angry.

Yes, I loose ALL RESPECT for those who have a facination with their ds's sex organs.

To the person (~EM~?) who got defensive about the comment of putting meds on bare glans as being sexual... Yeah, rubbing a boys glans is like rubbing a girls clitoris. Its sexual & VERY GROSS when its on a child! On an intact baby, if they need meds on their genitals, its the fenar band, rigid band (tip of foreskin) is where the meds are applied, not the glans.
post #35 of 110
I'm glad this thread was started b/c my dh thinks I'm crazy but I've been wringing my hands over potentially losing a lifelong friend over this same reason. Well, this, and every other one. She is only even ttc right now but suddenly has become adament about wanting to make all the wrong decisions in spite of the fact that I know she knows better. She has declared that she will circ a boy, wants a hospital birth, refuses to even hire a doula (but claims she's going to "try" to go natural), will never co-sleep, etc. etc. It's like she has become militant anti-NF. I don't know why because her mom is like the opposite. And she puts it all on her dh, but I've actually heard him (before she cuts him off) try to say, "well, maybe we should consider..." NO, she is not having it. I guess I can't help taking it personally.
post #36 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by fruitful womb View Post
To the person (~EM~?) who got defensive about the comment of putting meds on bare glans as being sexual... Yeah, rubbing a boys glans is like rubbing a girls clitoris. Its sexual & VERY GROSS when its on a child! On an intact baby, if they need meds on their genitals, its the fenar band, rigid band (tip of foreskin) is where the meds are applied, not the glans.
I'm just saying health problems can pop up anywhere on any infant and if they do they need to be treated - I don't consider that sexual in nature. If poop gets on a baby girls clitoris, it needs to be carefully wiped off - it's just taking care of the baby. Yes you have to touch her sexual parts, but it's for a nonsexual purpose. I don't consider it gross, either - it would be nice if infants came as self-cleaning, but they just don't.

As stated, my older son had an MRSA sore on the very tip of his penis (actually around the urethral opening) - applying the ointment wasn't sexual or optional - it just had to be done. The infection may have been a little gross, I grant you, but medicating it certainly wasn't and I definitely didn't consider it sexual. Same with the persistant YI on the younger boy - it was more base of the penis and underside, but it had to be treated and that was that. Neither infection was foreskin-related, but still penis-related and had the problem been with their foreskins or any other part of them, I wouldn't consider that sexual in nature either.

I don't consider my opinion defensive, either - I just find it very odd that anyone would consider putting meds on a baby (circ'd or not) or otherwise touching a baby's genitals to care for the infant infant sexual in nature.
post #37 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Em~ View Post
You are totally entitled to your circing opinion, obviously - I'm not questioning that.

However, penises get infected - circ'd ones, intact ones - they can ALL get infected and it can affect any part of the penis. It's happened to us and I've had to intensely medicate my infant son's red, raw little penis - it was actually bleeding around the base and entire underside due to a severe YI. You make it sound like putting meds on a penis is sexual in any way and I take issue with that. It's no more sexual than careful washing is - it's medication, plain and simple, even if you do not agree with the reason behind the need for the meds, which I completely respect.

I also agree that your sister's reasoning is quite disturbing, but I'm hoping the comment was said in a moment of intense stress or emotional confusion and she didn't really mean it the way you perceived it.
I assume your son is cut because with intact boy you should NEVER retract in order to put meds (you put them over the foreskin).
post #38 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yulia_R View Post
I assume your son is cut because with intact boy you should NEVER retract in order to put meds (you put them over the foreskin).
This isn't true.

Both of my sons are intact and I was required to expose the urethra of my youngest for a antibiotic ointment.
post #39 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahGuinn View Post
This isn't true.

Both of my sons are intact and I was required to expose the urethra of my youngest for a antibiotic ointment.
SarahGuinn, I'm sorry to say but you were given a bad advice. Foreskin should NOT be retracted, especially when there is infection going on.
post #40 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yulia_R View Post
I assume your son is cut because with intact boy you should NEVER retract in order to put meds (you put them over the foreskin).
No - the meds were put at the base of the penis of one and the tip of the other (where the pee comes out, as stated) - there was no retraction of anything going on and wouldn't have been, regardless of the cut/uncut state of the penis.

Besides which, when you are dealing with MRSA, the rules change - it can cause permanent disfiguring damage or even death if not treated adequately.

DS2 had a "hidden" penis since he was so frickin' chunky, so he got infections around the outside of his penis easily, no matter how clean he was kept - the meds were for the base and underside/exterior only. The hidden-ness has since resolved itself, and he no longer is prone to such infections, thankfully.

My point was only that treating the medical conditions of sexual organs is not a sexual task, it's just a parenting task - that's all.
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