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S/O: Disowning or Ignoring those who circ - Page 5

post #81 of 110
I agree with PPs that if a body part needs to be cleaned or receive medical attention, then that's what it is- cleaning or medical attention, not sexual abuse. And no, I'm not saying what she did was right or acceptable behavior. I just think that's an awfully big accusation to throw around.

That said... to the OP- if you honestly believe that this is sexual abuse, have you called the authorities? In not, then you could and SHOULD be prosecuted along with your sister for standing by and allowing the sexual abuse to continue.
post #82 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
I agree with PPs that if a body part needs to be cleaned or receive medical attention, then that's what it is- cleaning or medical attention, not sexual abuse. And no, I'm not saying what she did was right or acceptable behavior. I just think that's an awfully big accusation to throw around.

That said... to the OP- if you honestly believe that this is sexual abuse, have you called the authorities? In not, then you could and SHOULD be prosecuted along with your sister for standing by and allowing the sexual abuse to continue.
Since we all know circumcising boys (not girls of course) is legal and after care is necessary it doesn't really matter legally speaking if the op or anyone else thinks it's sexual abuse. She could notify the authorities but we all know it would do no good and at best she'd just be laughed at.
Suggesting she is contributing or allowing the abuse is beyond offensive because you know she can't legally do anything.
post #83 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by LavenderMae View Post
Since we all know circumcising boys (not girls of course) is legal and after care is necessary it doesn't really matter legally speaking if the op or anyone else thinks it's sexual abuse. She could notify the authorities but we all know it would do no good and at best she'd just be laughed at.
Suggesting she is contributing or allowing the abuse is beyond offensive because you know she can't legally do anything.
I'm not saying that she should go complain to the legal system about her nephew getting circed and treated... that's ridiculous.

BUT if she believes that her sister was manipulating her son's glans in a sexual way, then she has a duty to report that. If she doesn't think her sister was acting in a sexual manner toward her son, then she shouldn't be tossing around the phrase "sexual abuse" so lightly when it is a VERY serious matter.

Just my opinion.
post #84 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
This was in reference to my bringing up extended nursing, family bed, anti vax. I brought those up as examples of things that are often considered positive on MDC but mainstream parents may call them neglectful or even abusive. They could find articles to support those claims. We could find other articles to support our side.

Your sister or best friend comes to you with articles or books or her deeply held belief that extended nursing or family bed is akin to sexual abuse. She begs you to stop. She can't look at you the same anymore. She cuts ties with you as she just can't stand by while you hurt your child. You strongly disagree but she won't budge. How is that different from someone cutting their sister or best friend out of their life for circing?

I happen to agree with you that circing is wrong. I just don't think cutting ties serves any purpose. What does it solve? How does it improve the circ/intact percentages? When your nephew comes to you as an adult, wanting to know where you were when he was playing his first tee ball game, when he had the lead in the school play, the night he graduated - what is the answer? Your parents had you circed, so I cut your family out of my life? There are moms here on MDC who circed and deeply regret it. Do they deserve to keep their friends and family?

I didn't baptize my kids. My MIL is a STAUNCH Catholic. She prays every day that we'll fix this error. She believes their eternal souls are in jeopardy. There have been discussions about it over the years. But she didn't cut us out of her life.

If it is just some woman who goes to your grocery store, whatever. But if it is your sister, your dear friend, someone close to you? Continuing a relationship doesn't mean you agree that circing their son is ok. It means caring enough about that person to forgive them their mistakes, even if they don't yet realize it was one.
Again, the parenting choices you spoke about, even baptism are choices (and some will value the importance of those choices more then others) but circumcision is different, it is a human rights violation, in many of the same ways female circumcision is.

Its not that I would want to cut ties with these people, but I would be so disgusted by them that, even if I tried, I would not be able to hang out with them, be close to them, or open up to them anymore.

I do agree with you though. I would try to stay connected as much as I could, I wouldn't want to deprive a child of another supportive family member because his parents made a stupid decision. I would still stay in their lives, and be there to connect to their son. But when it comes to the friendship with that family member, I would just be going through the motions, to me, my interactions with them would be empty.
post #85 of 110
As a passionate pro-lifer, I feel this way about abortion. To me, abortion, like circumcision, is a human rights issue. Plain and simple. So it is difficult for me sometimes to feel kindly towards those who might argue with me on this point. At the same time, I would not disown or reject someone who has had an abortion nor would I refuse to be friends with someone who is pro-choice. It would be a bad representation of me and my position if I were to act badly towards someone who disagrees with me on the issue. Even further, I can not sway someone to see my side of things if I reject them or are unkind to their position. As with circumcision, I stand firmly on what I believe, yet leave the door open to dialogue and try very hard to love the person despite our differences. Education, patience and compassion are all you can give under such circumstances. It's hard, but it's necessary.

On a personal note, as one of the early posters mentioned, I've "put my head in the sand" so to speak rather than address the circumcision issue because it is a sensitive area for me. My SIL just had a baby boy and I am afraid to ask if she had him circumcized. I'd almost rather not know. I'm scared of her answer if I were to ask. I just hope and pray she didn't do it. That's all I can do. Before the baby was born, we had a few short, civil discussions about it. She knows I don't circ and that I disapprove of it and why. I just left it at that. Who knows.....
post #86 of 110
Thread Starter 
I thought I'd come back to this thread and mention that a large part of why I don't feel like having my sister in my life right now is that I personally spent hours over the span of her pregnancy giving her all sorts of information about circumcision and the foreskin. The fact that she chose to hurt her baby after knowing all that information just floors me. I can't think of her the same way anymore. Not right now at least. And maybe not ever.
post #87 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntoninBeGonin View Post
In short, she's not the same person I once knew, and I don't think I'll ever feel close to her again.
Your sister's response sickened me.

I didn't end the friendship, in the sense that once I found out about the circumcision, I didn't throw them out of my house and say "that's it, don't ever contact me again". However, I did feel VERY differently toward the woman. I was sickened every time I was reminded of what she had allowed to be done to her son. We moved shortly thereafter, and I never made any effort to contact her.

If it was a family member. . . wow, that would be really hard. My sister is a 26-year old Air Force Academy graduate. She desperately wants to start a family, but will probably wait until she gets out of the Air Force in 5 years. I guess I need to start working on her now, so that I don't ever have to deal with this situation
post #88 of 110
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post #89 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
That said... to the OP- if you honestly believe that this is sexual abuse, have you called the authorities? In not, then you could and SHOULD be prosecuted along with your sister for standing by and allowing the sexual abuse to continue.
What the hell are you talking about? :
post #90 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
I'm not saying that she should go complain to the legal system about her nephew getting circed and treated... that's ridiculous.

BUT if she believes that her sister was manipulating her son's glans in a sexual way, then she has a duty to report that. If she doesn't think her sister was acting in a sexual manner toward her son, then she shouldn't be tossing around the phrase "sexual abuse" so lightly when it is a VERY serious matter.

Just my opinion.
A. I'm doing my best to advocate for little boys that they get to keep their whole, normal, and healthy body they're born with. The very idea that you think I should be persecuted for that is just bewhildering. I've been fighting against circumcision since I was in my second trimester with my son in early 2004. How dare you tell me I should pay any of the price for my nephew being hurt when I spent hours pouring over several books and articles to try and help him. :::::

B. I looked back through my posts in the this thread, and I do not see where I said that my sister rubbing my newborn nephew's glans is "sexual abuse", I said it sickened me because under normal circumstances there is no need for anyone to touch a newborn's glans. She was the one who caused her perfectly healthy baby to be in pain and she was the one who caused her son to need her to handle his penis.

C. I did say that circumcision is sexual abuse, but then most (if not all) of us on here feel that way. If you don't, perhaps you should re-evaluate your thoughts on RIC.

You are extremely offensive and the only reason I'm not reporting your post is because I'm not quite that angry yet.
post #91 of 110
Not trying to be offensive... merely stating my opinion, which I thought was allowed on MDC.

If I misunderstood you, then I apologize. You gave a pretty descriptive mention about her rubbing cream on her son's penis and how private that was, and then 2 sentences later said, "In my mind what she did was sexual abuse, pure and simple." I assumed those things were related, not that you were labeling circumcision as sexual abuse. I'm obviously not the only one who misunderstood, since early posts in the thread are debating whether the cream rubbing would or would not be considered sexual.

But I still think that's a pretty heavy accusation to throw at someone. What about the people that actually were sexually abused (in the 'standard' definition of the term) as children- they might be equally offended by you calling a medical procedure sexual abuse. And NO, I'm not saying that routine circumcision is ok. I just don't think that it's sexual abuse. I think that people need to be educated, which will take time. You can't expect that everyone will listen to your point of view when society as a whole (not to mention the medical profession) has been telling them the exact opposite for decades.

And just out of curiosity- what would you plan to report my post for? If I have violated any part of the UA, please let me know. I am merely stating an opinion about your post, which is the whole point of posting discussions on a discussion board.
post #92 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
And just out of curiosity- what would you plan to report my post for?

Um, how about the part where you said I should be prosecuted? It's comforting that not only do you think just because circumcision is legal, it's not abusive, but you also think people like me who call it for what it is should go to jail.
post #93 of 110
i consider circ. sexual abuse. its a sexual organ and its abused by circ'ing. permanently.
post #94 of 110
On the subject of sexual abuse...I think one of the saddest facts about circumcision in the USA is that the abuse doesn't stop with the surgery...caregivers are taught to push back the remaining skin for months and sometimes years after the initial circumcision to prevent adhesions. That's days and months and years of penal manipulation by the caregiver...and it's not like the child understands why.

I can't imagine a little girl having her clitoral hood manipulated for a couple years and it not having some affect on her in some way or another.....but it's so "accepted" for little boys here
post #95 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntoninBeGonin View Post
Um, how about the part where you said I should be prosecuted? It's comforting that not only do you think just because circumcision is legal, it's not abusive, but you also think people like me who call it for what it is should go to jail.
Again... since you obviously didn't read my post, I said that I thought you were talking about the cream rubbing on the penis as sexual abuse, not the circumcision.

Even skipping that fact- how is that against UA? I'm not allowed to say that someone watching sexual abuse happen and doing nothing should be prosecuted along with the abuser? Just because you disagree with a post, doesn't mean that it should be removed. Seriously- if you can't handle someone having a different opinion than you, you shouldn't be posting on a discussion board. That's all- my opinion. I'm done... so you can spout your anger at someone else. I wasn't trying to piss anybody off- I was just a little shocked at your OP stating that your sister had sexually abused her son. And yes, my second paragraph is completely off topic, so I have no problem with a mod asking me to remove it.

Back on topic- if you want to make a positive change in people, going around disowning people (especially family) and publicly chastising them is not the way to do it in my opinion.
post #96 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
Not trying to be offensive... merely stating my opinion, which I thought was allowed on MDC.

If I misunderstood you, then I apologize. You gave a pretty descriptive mention about her rubbing cream on her son's penis and how private that was, and then 2 sentences later said, "In my mind what she did was sexual abuse, pure and simple." I assumed those things were related, not that you were labeling circumcision as sexual abuse. I'm obviously not the only one who misunderstood, since early posts in the thread are debating whether the cream rubbing would or would not be considered sexual.

But I still think that's a pretty heavy accusation to throw at someone. What about the people that actually were sexually abused (in the 'standard' definition of the term) as children- they might be equally offended by you calling a medical procedure sexual abuse. And NO, I'm not saying that routine circumcision is ok. I just don't think that it's sexual abuse. I think that people need to be educated, which will take time. You can't expect that everyone will listen to your point of view when society as a whole (not to mention the medical profession) has been telling them the exact opposite for decades.

And just out of curiosity- what would you plan to report my post for? If I have violated any part of the UA, please let me know. I am merely stating an opinion about your post, which is the whole point of posting discussions on a discussion board.
Most of the time circumcision is a cosmetic procedure done by ADULTS to make their infant sons penis look more sexually attractive, eventually when he is an adult. How many people say they think intact penis's are ugly or are afraid women won't find their sons sexually attractive? These are BABIES for crying out loud! No one should be concerned with the attractiveness of their infant son's penis. I had a hard time classifying it as sexual abuse at first because compared to the common definition it isn't exactly the same. It is at a minimum physical abuse that is accepted by our culture as normal.
post #97 of 110
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
Again... since you obviously didn't read my post, I said that I thought you were talking about the cream rubbing on the penis as sexual abuse, not the circumcision.

Even skipping that fact- how is that against UA? I'm not allowed to say that someone watching sexual abuse happen and doing nothing should be prosecuted along with the abuser? Just because you disagree with a post, doesn't mean that it should be removed. Seriously- if you can't handle someone having a different opinion than you, you shouldn't be posting on a discussion board. That's all- my opinion. I'm done... so you can spout your anger at someone else. I wasn't trying to piss anybody off- I was just a little shocked at your OP stating that your sister had sexually abused her son. And yes, my second paragraph is completely off topic, so I have no problem with a mod asking me to remove it.

Back on topic- if you want to make a positive change in people, going around disowning people (especially family) and publicly chastising them is not the way to do it in my opinion.

I don't go around publicly chastising people, for gods sakes! Where the hell do you come up with your crap?

I swear, I have never been as angry at anyone on this entire community as I am with you right now. This is ridiculous.

Someone please tell me how to block a user so I don't have to see any more of her posts.
post #98 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntoninBeGonin View Post
I don't go around publicly chastising people, for gods sakes! Where the hell do you come up with your crap?
I didn't mean me. I meant your sister. Wasn't that the point of the OP- to make everyone see what a horrible person your sister was, and ask if you were justified in disowning her?? Or have I completely missed the point of your thread?
post #99 of 110
Quote:
Back on topic- if you want to make a positive change in people, going around disowning people (especially family) and publicly chastising them is not the way to do it in my opinion.
What do you suggest then? What does one do when a family member/friend unapologetically circs after receiving all of the information on how harmful it is?
post #100 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by yokosmile View Post
What do you suggest then? What does one do when a family member/friend unapologetically circs after receiving all of the information on how harmful it is?
I'm wondering the same thing?? How are we SUPPOSED to feel? What are we supposed to do? Roll over and let it die? Keep bringing it up?
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