Struggling with whether or not to report child abuse

[pixiewytch]

I have a duplex across the street from us which always seems to house problem people in general. There is a single mom living there now with her two year old daughter.

The first "abuse" type of episode I witnessed literally made me sick to my stomach. The little girl was outside on the porch crying for whatever reason and instead of leaving her alone, the mom was screaming at her to shut up. Then she started yelling at her to "get her ass up". When the little girl kept crying the mom wadded up something in her hand and started hitting her with it. What bothered me most was that the mom seemed to be antagonizing the girl more than anything else instead of leaving her alone, and she seemed to be punishing her out of anger instead of sound discipline. I was so disturbed I started to run out of my house and had to stop myself. I really was going to let her have it. Well, a few minutes later, some guy pulls up in a car. She throws the girl in the backseat with no restraint and they take off.

Well, that was the worst I have seen. Since then I have heard her yell at the girl to shut up, cuss at her, and heard the baby crying on end inside the house, but you know, babies do cry, and I would hate for someone to call CPS on me because my baby is crying from an illness or teething or whatever. That just isn't enough evidence for me.

The kicker is that I suspect she is prostituting herself. I have no way of proving it but in the late hours of the night she and other friends are dressed to the nines with other guys outside on cell phones giving directions. Sometimes the little girl is outside of the house very late at night with little attention from the adults. She doesn't work during the day at all. It just seems like something is going on, but again I can't report something on simple suspicion.

So every time I bring myself to call, I hold back. When I read the page for "signs of abuse" I see a lot of things on my end that could be seen as abuse. I don't vaccinate. My son is out of school right now because he got kicked out for behavioral issues. I drink alcohol at home. My son has developmental issues, mainly SPD. My kids cry a lot too. I mean, I would hate to think someone might come by my house and call on me because we don't take our kids to the doctor for every little thing, vaccinate, or because I labored for hours at home with no medical intervention.

In the end, I guess I just feel like it is such an invasion of privacy. I mean, my heart goes out to that little girl across the street. It is obvious that her mom is unhappy, has made a lot of bad choices, and is taking it out on the child, but is that enough to report abuse? I mean, what if she is in a better situation now than she would be in a foster home? At least she is with her mother.

I don't know. Any suggestions here?

The

[hollytheteacher]

OMG how heartbreaking the whole situation is!

If *I* personally witnessed such episode I would call. I am an early childhood educator so i am a mandated reporter and one example of what i have reported was when a mother repeatedly did not put her 4 year old in his carseat (or even buckled at all) to bring him home from school. Several teachers told her we had witnessed it and would be reporting it. Her "excuse" was that she "lives around the block" Sorry, still not LEGAL! So anyway, yes *I* would call.

[traceface]

I think, by calling, there's a small chance you might activate a change for the better.

It doesn't sound like the child would be taken from her mother for this kind of stuff, no matter how heartbreaking the situation. So that's good, because you're right, at least she's with her mom.

But there' s a tiny possibility that the mom can be gotten through to, that she already somewhere deep down wants to do better and if a CPS person is talking to her, offering resources - she might let at least a little of that info in.

I don't know though - do CPS people even offer resources to help the struggling parent? or is it just to determine whether to remove the child or not? I don't know enough about it.

I'm just thinking, this woman *maybe* could benefit from knowing what programs are available to them, maybe a BigSister kind of thing to give the child some exposure to something more positive. Also even just help from whatever they qualify for: daycare expenses paid, health insurance, food stamps. Those things can help by relieving $ stress on the Mom and then maybe she mellows out a little.

But that's all only if the mama has a clue that the life she is offering her daughter is really bleak. if it's all fine and normal in her eyes, she'll just be defensive.

The no-car seat thing alone makes it seem worth calling for.

Poor ;little girl. it must be really painful to watch this situation.

[diamond lil]

That sounds heartbreaking. Do you feel comfortable introducing yourself to the mother and getting to know her story a little better? Maybe this mom needs a neighbor to turn to when she's at the end of her rope, etc.

On the other hand, I completely understand if you don't want to involve yourself in this family's life. Especially if you feel there is something illegal going on with the mother's activities. I wouldn't want that around my kid(s).

I think you were right to not jump on her for the first incident, especially if you were angry. That may only alienate the mother. Iwould keep my eyes open and I would call the police if your gut tells you something is wrong. In the end, always follow your instincts. Mine have saved my hide a number of times.

Good luck. Sorry this is happening in your neigborhood.

[~Em~]

I would call. If something worse happened to the child later, I would feel responsible if I did not call. My profession also requires that I call, even if my own ethics did not.

[LeighB]

I would call. Even looking at those incidents separately, I'd call.

[starling&diesel]

I too am a mandated reported and would be obliged to call CPS in this situation. And I would anyway, even as a private citizen. That little girl, bless her wee life, needs support and intervention of a sort that her mama is simply unable to provide right now. Little One is at risk, both emotionally, physically, and -- my heart hurts to say -- very likely, sexually.

[rabbitmum]

I would try to get in contact with her first. As inexcusable as I think hitting or shouting at a child is, it is in fact legal in the U.S., isn't it? And you don't know if she consistently does this, or if she had a really bad day that day.

As for her being a prostitute, you don't really know that, do you? Maybe they were going to a party, or work in a bar or something? Anyway, I'm not even sure that being a prostitute necessarily makes you a horrible mother.

And the carseat issue: Of course she should have a carseat for her daughter. Personally I would never take my kids in a car without one. But I don't think driving without one necessarily means you are completely useless as a parent, either. My mother for instance, doesn't think it's a big deal whether you use a carseat or not. They were not compulsory when I was little, so we never had carseats. So she has taken my niece in her car without a carseat a couple of times. No one here would call the CPS because of that.

I would ask your neighbour if she didn't have one, maybe give her advice on where she could get a cheap or second-hand one. Tell her that since the law says she should have one, she risks somebody calling the CPS about it.
I would maybe ask her if she's ok, and tell her I was wondering, since I saw that she was very upset with her daughter the other day. I would just try to give her some signal that I was concerned.

But, knowing that the CPS could come and take her daughter away, which would not necessarily be better for the child, I wouldn't call unless I knew a lot more. I would be concerned, but, as a previous poster said, at least she is with her mother.

[FondestBianca]

I'd suggest that you call and just tell the person you are talking to, without saying who the suspected offender is what is going on and your feelings about it. Maybe they can give you some insight or persway you in one direction or another. You may also find in calling that CPS will do nothing in your neighbors case. If you have not seen physical abuse (more than what you described as what you described would probably be written off as a means of disipline), or seen house visitors abuseing the child in some way they will probably tell you there is no proof and they can do nothing. I've called CPS before (for parents doing drugs at home (smoking meth around their baby), and making and selling drugs around their child in the home as well). The CPS worked said, that unless they take their child on drug deals, don't feed their baby because they are too high, or force the child to actually smoke the meth herself (put it in her mouth) it isn't concidered abuse. :

I suggest that you call the locla police and let them know that there is late night activity outside the home that looks criminal in nature and disturbes the neighbors. Let them know that there are small children in the home and you are worried about their safety with both the mother and her house guests. If nothing else the police will drop by. Let them know what time the activity usually happens at night or even wait to call until you see people outside. Just make sure you tell them about the childred so they know to look out for them when they go to the home.

Also, if you feel comfortable and are worried about gettign someone in trouble that you may just have the wrong impression of: you could approach her in a loving way when it seems she is home alone with no guests. Maybe bring over some home made food and say, "we've been neighbors for awhile and I realized we've never really talked/met." I don't maybe if she is having issues in her life she may feel comfortabe opening up to you. if you do this you have to also be prepared for her to want to "make buddies" with you and perhaps come to you with problems you'd rather not be privy to. If you can handle the possible back lash of this approach and don't feel you or your childre would be in any threat by approaching her, that is definatly an option. Compassion is sometimes the best way to solve these sorts of problems... if indeed there is a problem.

Instinct is usually correct. There is probably something troubling going on in your neighobrs life. Wether CPS or police can do anything about it I don't know. It's a judgement call. She will only get in trouble is she is doing something wrong. YOU can't make her get into trouble. Remember that.

Sorry you're in such an awkward situation. Hope all turns out well.

[pixiewytch]

Interesting varied responses. Well, I have met the neighbor when she moved in and she has come by to borrow a few things...nice enough girl, just not someone I have enough in common with for us to be hanging around shooting the breeze I guess.

It's funny how people have different feelings about things. For instance, the car seat thing isn't a huge deal to me. I mean, when my parents raised me we didn't have car seats and I wouldn't have considered it child abuse, were it not for the fact it is a law now....

but the prostitution and hanging out with random guys thing bugs me. I definitely don't know that she is soliciting for sex but if nothing else there are all sorts of different guys over there at night flirting with the mom while everybody else completely ignores the little girl sitting in the corner. That bugs me a heck of a lot more than the carseat issue.

And fwiw...I think prostitution should be legalized with this being a prime example. It could be "cleaner", safer, and more regulated than this girl getting in cars with random guys she hardly knows, and with the little girl in tow. So I'm not necessarily opposed to sex workers, just the context this is in.

One of the other tenants who is a single mom to three and one on the way did get her kids taken away last week. She is more chatty and uses my phone on occasion. She said the police officer said that their apt. isn't fit for children to live in there. They have mice, roaches....basically the ladies who own the place are slumlords.

So I did call code enforcement today. If nothing else, they can pressure the owners to make their property inhabitable.

It is a toss up. I guess if I was in a mandated profession to call I would, but now I feel like I should bide my time and call the police as someone else suggested when suspected activity is going on...

And yes, my son plays over there, at least outside with the little girl, so it does bug me that she is cussing at her kid and carrying on that way. On the same token though, I feel like it really isn't my business what she does on her property, even if I don't like it. I would feel intrusive to go over there and speak my mind about it.

[dubfam]

Originally Posted by rabbitmum

I would try to get in contact with her first. As inexcusable as I think hitting or shouting at a child is, it is in fact legal in the U.S., isn't it? And you don't know if she consistently does this, or if she had a really bad day that day.

As for her being a prostitute, you don't really know that, do you? Maybe they were going to a party, or work in a bar or something? Anyway, I'm not even sure that being a prostitute necessarily makes you a horrible mother.

And the carseat issue: Of course she should have a carseat for her daughter. Personally I would never take my kids in a car without one. But I don't think driving without one necessarily means you are completely useless as a parent, either. My mother for instance, doesn't think it's a big deal whether you use a carseat or not. They were not compulsory when I was little, so we never had carseats. So she has taken my niece in her car without a carseat a couple of times. No one here would call the CPS because of that.

I would ask your neighbour if she didn't have one, maybe give her advice on where she could get a cheap or second-hand one. Tell her that since the law says she should have one, she risks somebody calling the CPS about it.
I would maybe ask her if she's ok, and tell her I was wondering, since I saw that she was very upset with her daughter the other day. I would just try to give her some signal that I was concerned.

But, knowing that the CPS could come and take her daughter away, which would not necessarily be better for the child, I wouldn't call unless I knew a lot more. I would be concerned, but, as a previous poster said, at least she is with her mother.

It is NOT legal in the US to BEAT your children. A swat or two on the butt, sure. (Not that I think that is much better)

If she is Prostituting herself out of her home then yes, more than likely that is an indicator that she is not making good Parenting choices and needs intervention. Bringing strange men into your home that are paying you for sex while our child is there...Bad News.
But you don;t know for sure that she is a prostitute. IME most prostitutes don't really "Dress to the nines" they tend to look more like a normal girl/woman that dresses a little promiscuous. Any chance that she is a Stripper/Nude dancer? THEY tend to have the fancier clothes etc..


I think that I would call. I completely understand why you are having a hard time making the decision. It is such a huge invasion of privacy, and I *shudder* to think of how some of my parenting choices could be misinterpreted by another person that doesn't understand me. But it sound like she is making really bad choices and could use some intervention/a good wake up call. More than likely she would just end up having to go through some parenting classes and show that she can provide a safe environment for her daughter.

Good Luck...I know this is a tough decision.

[bellacymom]

Originally Posted by traceface

The no-car seat thing alone makes it seem worth calling for.

I agree. If you are questioning any other reason to call that would be a good one. I don't have much faith in CPS though. When my daughter was 6 months old she feel out of a sling and got a tiny skull fracture. Well I took her to the ER and they sent CPS to my house (completely understandable and I am glad they did) well they walked in looked in my living room said "Thanks" and walked right out never to be heard from again. I have a bunch of toys in my living room and my house is pretty clean but does that mean I am not abusive? No. I think they should have come at least one more time for a surprise visit. A skull fracture is a pretty big deal. I was disappointed not because I abuse my kid (duh) but because if that is the most they check someone out a lot of things can slip through the cracks. Sorry I got a little off subject. My point in that was to tell you even if you do call and there is reason to suspect abuse they still may not do anything.

[AllisonR]

Originally Posted by traceface

I don't know though - do CPS people even offer resources to help the struggling parent? or is it just to determine whether to remove the child or not? I don't know enough about it.

This is a brilliant question. Anyone know the answer to this?

OP, you sound like you are really thinking about this, and all factors involved, instead of just jumping to conclusions. Good luck, no matter what you decide.

[yarngoddess]

I had to call CPS on a neighbor a few years ago. I called about her constant screaming at the children. When I called CPS they said that they would rather have someone call, and them not do anything about it than to NOT call and have a situation where they could help the family and children or have a situation that is unimaginable. In the end I think you should call.

I know that "mommy" fear of being the one to deal with CPS- for either our selves or loved ones or strangers... I know that fear of being the one that took mommy away-and I know how rough CPS and foster systems can be- I would still rather call when I *thought* something was wrong than to not call and wonder, worry.... KWIM?

[Heavenly]

Wow. You saw the woman beating her 2 year old and the 2 year old is wandering outside at night unsupervised and you are WONDERING whether to call? Wow. I must have way different standards than everyone else or something. That isn't a wondering whether to call type of situation for me. How do you think you will feel if something happens to that little girl and YOU could have prevented it?

[Demeter9]

I have a pretty high tolerance to other parenting motives, and ways.

I call the police on her, telling them that I suspect prostitution.

They can step in and look at the environment in the house, and decide if something needs to be done.

BTW, yes I do know what I am talking about here. People thought MY young mother was a prostitute. She wasn't (ar at least not then). But I would still have prefered someone call and have the house checked out.

[pixiewytch]

Originally Posted by Heavenly

Wow. You saw the woman beating her 2 year old and the 2 year old is wandering outside at night unsupervised and you are WONDERING whether to call? Wow. I must have way different standards than everyone else or something. That isn't a wondering whether to call type of situation for me. How do you think you will feel if something happens to that little girl and YOU could have prevented it?

Well, how exactly do you define beating? I mean, she rolled up a wad of paper or something and smacked her with it a couple of times. Maybe to her that is a form of discipline although it wouldn't be my choice. I do think she was crossing the line but I would not have defined it as "beating". I was more concerned with the anger she was taking out on her as she was doing it than the physical harm associated with a "beating".

As for being unsupervised at night, there are adults outside with her. It just seems to me that they are paying zero attention to her while they are laughing and carrying on amongst themselves. It just seems more neglectful emotionally than anything else I guess. I mean, the adults were tossing a ball back and forth laughing and nobody even initiating with her.

[Dragonfly]

IMO, there are two questions you need to ask:

1) Is this little girl in an emotionally and physically healthy environment right now?

2) Is she going to get help from any of the adults in the house?

If the answer to both is "no" (and I think a parent who whacks you with wadded up anything, yells at you enough that the neighbors find it disturbing, antagonizes you, and neglects you emotionally qualifies as a "no"), then you have a responsibility to call in some help for her.

I've seen CPS/DCFS do wonders to assist parents in getting the help they need to make a healthy home for their children. And, yes, I've also seen children removed when it was warranted. I'm positive children are sometimes removed when it's not entirely warranted, but that's the exception, IME, not the rule. And the likelihood that they're going to come for you just because you call on her is very slim.

Regardless, sometimes you have to stick your neck out and do the right thing to help a child. You have an opportunity here. "None of my business" and "invasion of her privacy" has no place in the equation.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I think I would start by calling the cops about the late night activity. To me it seems maybe like drug dealing? At any rate, that would get someone there who could also assess what they saw relative to the child, and might bring peace to your neighborhood. Or, if they didn't find anything more than late night partying, maybe you would rest a bit easier having had them look into things?

[ipeabody]

I just want to quickly add to my two cents about the role of child welfare. I can't speak specifically to the American system as I worked in the Canadian system, but I would think they are not terribly different.

Children's Aid, the Canadian equivalent of CPS, had many different ways they can help a family beyond simply removing a child from the parent's care. As long as there is reasonable suspicion of emotional, physical, sexual abuse, neglect or family violence (as defined by legislation), children's aid can intervene and offer services, resources and support to families in crisis. We were able to get kids involved in programs, camps, day care services, counselling etc, things their parents maybe couldn't afford, and we were also able to provide services to parents, we could even pull strings and help families to access more affordable housing.

I am not defending CPS or CAS, I know lots of decisions they make suck and have a horrible impact on people's lives. They do some indefensible things. I just want to point out that their role can be a good one, a positive one and not necessarily about simply removing a child. Where I worked, removing a child was a very very very serious decision and one that was made because we had exhausted all other options for helping that family and we were certain serious abuse was a factor.

Once again, I am not defending the horrible injustices that happen to families, I am just pointing out that they can have a role beyond removal of a child.