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Appropriate touches and men question - Page 4

post #61 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellacymom View Post
OMG! Maybaby at this point in this thread I am really feeling sorry for you. I bet you are about to pull your hair out! My advice now? There is way too much advice in this thread for one person to comprehend so go with your gut even if it is over reacting. You are your DD's mom so you have the right to over react if something makes you uncomfortable. I hope you get everything worked out without hurt feelings or more frustration on your part.
Actually I've found the advice in this thread to be one of the most consistent ever on MDC. Pretty much everyone agrees the care situation is dangerous and needs to change, whatever the other details.
post #62 of 90
Thread Starter 
Ya'll are right. I will constantly be stressed and worried about this. The guilt I will have from causing G so much pain will be better than constantly worrying about dd. G will either have to come to my house (and I know she won't), send her H away while dd is there (which is unfair to him), or I'll have to find someone else all together--which will take time. DD's dad is "on call" 24/7 with his job...he can't at the moment keep her overnight--and I'm not ready for that anyway (I trust him...but not ready for that, complicated situation). I'll try to bring her to work with me until I make other arrangements, which is dangerous in itself--considering I was robbed last year while pregnant with her. But at this point I think I'd rather do that than to have constant worry about GH.

I've lived in my house for 2 years...G has been there about 4 times. She doesn't like to drive and will not drive at night. I work in the same town as she lives--I'd burn 1/4 tank of gas per day if I drove her to/from my house.

I'm comfy with knowing G will keep GH away from dd...but as so many of you have pointed out, things can happen in the blink of an eye. I wish all of you could sit down with me to explain this to my G...make her totally understand. She gets hurt for many reasons...and thinks I don't trust her. I trust her and I trust she'd keep dd safe. I don't trust her H and don't want him around my kid. This could seriously cause her to have a stroke/heart attack. Seriously. But I don't know what else to do. Crap. This will be hard.
post #63 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayBaby2007 View Post
Ya'll are right. I will constantly be stressed and worried about this. The guilt I will have from causing G so much pain will be better than constantly worrying about dd. G will either have to come to my house (and I know she won't), send her H away while dd is there (which is unfair to him), or I'll have to find someone else all together--which will take time. DD's dad is "on call" 24/7 with his job...he can't at the moment keep her overnight--and I'm not ready for that anyway (I trust him...but not ready for that, complicated situation). I'll try to bring her to work with me until I make other arrangements, which is dangerous in itself--considering I was robbed last year while pregnant with her. But at this point I think I'd rather do that than to have constant worry about GH.

I've lived in my house for 2 years...G has been there about 4 times. She doesn't like to drive and will not drive at night. I work in the same town as she lives--I'd burn 1/4 tank of gas per day if I drove her to/from my house.

I'm comfy with knowing G will keep GH away from dd...but as so many of you have pointed out, things can happen in the blink of an eye. I wish all of you could sit down with me to explain this to my G...make her totally understand. She gets hurt for many reasons...and thinks I don't trust her. I trust her and I trust she'd keep dd safe. I don't trust her H and don't want him around my kid. This could seriously cause her to have a stroke/heart attack. Seriously. But I don't know what else to do. Crap. This will be hard.
I wish you and your daughter all the best and hope you are able come to a suitable arrangement soon.

Sam
post #64 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayBaby2007 View Post
Just stupid impulsive things. He's like an excited puppy that can't control his excitement or something. G is on him all the time about something or another. He has my G so stressed out
With a frontal lobe injury this is unlikely to EVER change. You have to realize that this is PERMANENT and that he won't be able to trusted to behave appropriately. Lack of common sense, memory issues and no sense of what's appropriate are all hallmarks of frontal lobe injuries.

Quote:
...it's a vacation for her to watch my dd. DD is low maintenence, very independent, happy go lucky kid and brings so much happiness to my G
I'm sure your dd brings happiness to your grandmother. BUT she also brings added stress and responsibility -- do you really want to add that to her? You can still bring your dd over regularly since then there will be two competent adults to watch her. You can bring grandma over to your house starting once a month and building up to once a week -- starting with short periods of time (and hour) so she becomes comfortable there. (She needs a break from her husband too.)
post #65 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by MayBaby2007 View Post
Ya'll are right. I will constantly be stressed and worried about this. The guilt I will have from causing G so much pain will be better than constantly worrying about dd. G will either have to come to my house (and I know she won't), send her H away while dd is there (which is unfair to him), or I'll have to find someone else all together--which will take time. DD's dad is "on call" 24/7 with his job...he can't at the moment keep her overnight--and I'm not ready for that anyway (I trust him...but not ready for that, complicated situation). I'll try to bring her to work with me until I make other arrangements, which is dangerous in itself--considering I was robbed last year while pregnant with her. But at this point I think I'd rather do that than to have constant worry about GH.

I've lived in my house for 2 years...G has been there about 4 times. She doesn't like to drive and will not drive at night. I work in the same town as she lives--I'd burn 1/4 tank of gas per day if I drove her to/from my house.

I'm comfy with knowing G will keep GH away from dd...but as so many of you have pointed out, things can happen in the blink of an eye. I wish all of you could sit down with me to explain this to my G...make her totally understand. She gets hurt for many reasons...and thinks I don't trust her. I trust her and I trust she'd keep dd safe. I don't trust her H and don't want him around my kid. This could seriously cause her to have a stroke/heart attack. Seriously. But I don't know what else to do. Crap. This will be hard.


I wish there was some magic arrangement I could make up that would allow G to come to your home or to make something else work for you.

Are ya absolutely sure there is no way you guys could maneuver, switch stuff around, or somesuch to allow G to come keep her at your house? How far is it away?
post #66 of 90
post #67 of 90
I think that you should decide where your level of comfort is... Does Grandmothers husbands other actions with DD concern you? Does he display an unnatural level of interaction with DD that is very physical, excessive touching, tickling or such?

Second, find a different child care situation no matter what you decide about you comfort level --- because you need to let this go and move on for YOURSELF. If you don't this could just eat you up and fester inside your spirit making you bitter towards him, Grandmother, and others.

Third, you may be looking at this a little hard. From previous marriage, I showered with both DS, DD. DD and I stopped when she started getting tall enough to become an issue. DS and I didn't, in my on family I took my last bath with a cousin when I was about 10, she was about 9. So if your household has a healthy respect and display of body issues, you may be able to explain to DD when she can understand why it's not appropriate to touch people in certain area.

Our DD is just 7m, my 2 from ex are 18 (DS) and 16 (DD). Overall I think that 7m old will have a different view on body image and issues, thanks to her wonderful mother. We've talked about what we feel and that is making a big difference in how things will be handed in the future related to body image and what is an appropriate level of physical contact with others.

JMHO

Jeffrey
post #68 of 90
I am SO glad that you've reconsidered this!

Even though there is stress in this decision, in the long run I strongly believe you will find that this makes you less stressed and you will feel far better inside yourself about it.

s
post #69 of 90
Even if your grandma were able to keep your daughter from ever being molested by this man... she would still be experiencing a situation where mom and grandma don't trust grandma's husband and think he might be a pedophile... yet they allow this man to remain in their lives.

That in itself is incredibly damaging and perverted, imo. I realize that you're already raising your daughter to distrust men, so maybe you're okay with that being the lesson she takes from this - it's okay to have men whom you don't trust in your house, because they're all bad anyway. It makes me sick to type that, but that's what you're teaching if you allow this to continue.

Your daughter should be learning to listen to her gut and stay the heck away from men she doesn't trust. This is the absolute worst thing you could do, if you want her to learn that.
post #70 of 90
i wish you all the best and that dd is safe!
post #71 of 90
MayBaby2007,
I am really happy to hear that you are going to make other arrangements.

I know I may have come off as harsh in my last post, but I feel like this is an extreme situation.

I have family members who are pedophiles so I completely understand how weird this can be. My children are not around those family members at all...this includes my own father
It is difficult and awkward and so painful to have to keep my kids away from certain family members but that is just what I have to do.

Feel free to PM me if you want to....

Again, I am sorry if my last post hurt your feelings. I am just really concerned about you and your dd...to the extent that your situation has been on my mind when I go to sleep and when I first wake up.

I am so happy that you are seeing the importance of not having your dd around gh w/out you or her father being present.

Good For You!!!!!
You are choosing the more challenging (but right) path.

.
post #72 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laggie View Post
That in itself is incredibly damaging and perverted, imo. I realize that you're already raising your daughter to distrust men, so maybe you're okay with that being the lesson she takes from this - it's okay to have men whom you don't trust in your house, because they're all bad anyway. It makes me sick to type that, but that's what you're teaching if you allow this to continue.

Your daughter should be learning to listen to her gut and stay the heck away from men she doesn't trust. This is the absolute worst thing you could do, if you want her to learn that.
:

I think another unintended consequence is that, while she learns that men are the "bad" ones, she learns that women are the "good" ones. And that will mean to her that nothing a female does to her can be wrong. Which opens her up to the possibility of being molested by a woman. In general, it distresses me how many people think that that's a very unlikely possibility. Some of the most horrific stories of child molestation that I've heard about were perpetuated by women.
post #73 of 90
To answer your orignal question:

Ds stands on dp's clothed "private area" all the time, if it doesn't hurt he doesn't move him
Ds lays his head on dp's clothed "private area"
DS grabs at pubic hair in the bath tub (we stop this because OW!)
Ds stands on our guy friends laps and perhaps touches their "private areas"
Ds sits in the middle of wide legs of our friends (guys and girls) and perhaps comes in contact with "private areas"
If my ds was my dd, the same would go just fine for me

HOWEVER if anyone ever made me feel icky....it would not be okay... and would stop instanteously!!!!
post #74 of 90
Oops, read your later post that you'll stop taking her over to G's house.

I have to say though, that if your grandmother really wants to watch dd, she'll come to your house. And maybe you can alternate where you drive her and then she does the driving or something.
post #75 of 90
Perhaps you can tell your grandmother that you'd like DD to have more time with other children, if that will help avoid hurt feelings. And don't worry too much about this damaging her health. People very rarely have strokes just because their feelings get hurt. I do think you are doing the right thing in keeping her away from Grandma's husband. Even if you are wrong about his behavior, you will never feel really comfortable. (This is not to say you are wrong. We get those feelings for a reason.)

Like other posters, I worry about the message you are sending about men and boys in general. Your daughter will miss out on many wonderful and enriching experiences if you paint all males with such a broad brush. Would you pull her out of a male teacher's classroom? Refuse to let her play with a little boy at the playground? Not allow her to play at the home of a little girl who has a single father? It just seems SO exclusionary! Honestly, it makes me think of racism. If you had had some horrible experiences with people of a certain race, surely you wouldn't think it was alright to be prejudiced against all others of that race- right? I don't see gender as being drastically different.

What if you someday have a son? Will you believe him to be inherently predisposed to bad things because he is male?

I really hope you are able to work this out with your therapist before you pass on your fear to your innocent child.
post #76 of 90
Thread Starter 
Okay. I did it. I promised G that I would visit every week on my days off and find other arrangements for dd on the 2 days in question. She didn't like it and kept wanting to make other arrangements (like make H leave the house on those days) but I just told her it would be less stressful for everyone involved if I found other placement for dd. I don't like her husband. I haven't liked him. I've disliked him MORE since dd has been here. Red flags just go up all the time with him. I don't like him. I handled him being around her. Everything was ok until dd started walking. I've just had enough with him. G just has to understand that. The vibe I get from him won't rest. So, there's the vibe...and then letting dd touch him--after he's been told not to. I'd had enough.

And I guess letting a child go between men's legs depends on the comfort level of the parents from reading the responses here. I'd be fine with all of this if dd was going between her dad's legs/touching him. I'd think nothing of it...but I know him and trust him completely. He's not comfy with it...but I would think nothing of it with him. Some said they would not be comfy with it...others say it's no big deal. So I guess I still don't know what's right/wrong....I guess it's all a matter of perception/comfort level (still, when I tell someone I'm NOT comfy with it and they do it anyway...that's just pushing it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by paquerette View Post
:

I think another unintended consequence is that, while she learns that men are the "bad" ones, she learns that women are the "good" ones. And that will mean to her that nothing a female does to her can be wrong. Which opens her up to the possibility of being molested by a woman. In general, it distresses me how many people think that that's a very unlikely possibility. Some of the most horrific stories of child molestation that I've heard about were perpetuated by women.
This isn't and won't be the case at all! It's not just men and I know that. There is only 2 women and myself who care for dd on a regular basis. I trust them. When it comes time to teach dd about good/bad touches--it will include both sexes. I don't live under a rock....I know both sexes AND the people close to my dd can hurt her. I will constantly talk to her/remind her about good/bad touches from both sexes and that she can tell me anything, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama2Bug View Post
Like other posters, I worry about the message you are sending about men and boys in general. Your daughter will miss out on many wonderful and enriching experiences if you paint all males with such a broad brush. Would you pull her out of a male teacher's classroom?Refuse to let her play with a little boy at the playground? Not allow her to play at the home of a little girl who has a single father? It just seems SO exclusionary! Honestly, it makes me think of racism. If you had had some horrible experiences with people of a certain race, surely you wouldn't think it was alright to be prejudiced against all others of that race- right? I don't see gender as being drastically different.

I can understand how people could see this as racism. But it's not. I don't see what's so wrong about not letting my dd be alone with men....for at least right now. What's so wrong about that? Would it make all of you happy if I had 20 men at my house and let them babysit my dd? She doesn't have a voice right now. When she's older/talking and knows good/bad touches,...I'm sure my view on things might change. For now, I don't see what the big deal is...neither does her father. We're both on the same level and agree on the same rules for our dd.

What if you someday have a son? Will you believe him to be inherently predisposed to bad things because he is male?

No. I will treat him no differently than my dd....he won't be alone with men, will only be with a couple of my closets female family members, etc....at least until he talks and knows good/bad touches. Boys are hurt as well as girls. Neither of the children will be *alone* (out of eye's view) with another child until they are much older. Things happen. Period. I'd watch him with my hawk vision just as I do my dd.

OT:
After living in my house for 2 years, I was out walking dd up and down the sidewalk (and she took a nose dive today and it looks like I beat the heck out of her ) I finally met my neighbors sometime last week--2 female friends and one of their gramma's live in one house. Next door to them is one of their sisters who is married with 3 older kids. We've gone out to dinner and chatted a few times now.

One of the ladies came over yesterday to take dd to meet everyone. My house was a disaster, so it worked out great for us--I got to clean and they played with a baby. There was <gasp> a man over there...and one son! I knew this before letting dd go with the lady. She's "good people"...you just know these things. Her sister (who I had met) is "good people". I knew dd wouldn't be *alone* with the husband/son...so I let her go. (I changed her diaper before she went. Lady asked, "Want me to take a diaper incase she needs changed?" I responded, "No, she'll be okay." I'm funny with anyone I don't know....not just men).

She was gone for 2 hours! It was a breakthrough for me....I was actually kinda proud of myself. That was the first person other than G or dd's dad who's ever taken her outta my sight. But I know they're good people and love babies (and they were right across the street ). The husband held her w/o me being there. It's okay.

I went over there today for bible study. There were 2 men there who loved babies and had kids of their own. They held dd and I was fine with it. I sense good with them....peace. BUT!!! It will still take me a long time to actually leave her *alone* with a man/let him change her diaper--if that ever happens. That was the first time a man held dd other than her dad and GH...but I sensed peace.

I didn't grow up with any positive male role models. None. The first good guy that came alone was dd's dad. We've been together for many years. I trust him completely...but he's the only man I've learned to trust. Sure, he broke my heart to pieces (and still does, sigh)...but he's a good man.

I won't apologize for the rules/paranoia I have for my dd (or hypothetical son). I have the paranoia/rules for a reason--for the life lessons that I have had. My job is to raise my dd into a confident woman...and to protect her until she is a woman. I'm following *my* motherly instincts to protect her. My instincts differ from most of the women here (though not all...there are a few women who agree with me) but I'm okay with that. My dd is *exposed* to men....she's just not alone with them and won't be for a long time. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm protecting my baby from things that I know can and do happen in this world.
post #77 of 90

Good for you, MayBaby..

It sounds like all is well, and I'm so glad.

Have a great weekend folks,

VF
post #78 of 90
I know I am jumping in here late but i will feel really bad if your GH just loves your dd and enjoys her being around/playing with her and hes depressed and thats why he stays in his room but when your dd comes over hes happy and enjoys her but you all think hes a pedophile deep down when all he does is love this little girl, ya know, the normal way.?? i dunno.im not there, so i dont know.
post #79 of 90
MayBaby,

So glad to hear about your decision regarding your care decision. I do kind of feel like I should say more and I hope I can say it warmly, because that is how it is meant.

I felt like in your follow up post where you let your daughter go off with people you had just met last week, for two hours, and you felt accomplished about it is still a bit of a red flag.

I am a survivor of abuse myself and I know about the rollercoaster on this kind of issue - waffling between being super-crazy protective and then feeling like you've "won" if you ease up.

But I want to caution you that "just knowing" that people are good people is not a safe way to make decisions about care for your child. Those instincts are fantastic, and we all use them in making decisions - but you need to back them up with observation, and that takes time. This goes double for people who have had bad experiences - sometimes our 'radar' is off, and in trying to avoid one particular scenario we can open ourselves up to all kinds of other ones.

Some of the other things you said also made me feel like you could use some other resources. Teaching about good touch/bad touch is important but it is in no way protection for a child. I would strongly recommend that you read "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker which provides really good concrete help in navigating this kind of thing.

I feel like you need some support in working through these issues and I hope you do get that. I hope you don't feel beat on in this thread either. These are hard things and I think the community here is very helpful in its knowledge and thought over these things.
post #80 of 90
Thread Starter 
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