Alfie Kohn?

[laralee16]

I just read the article by this person "Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!"" and I have to say, does this not go against GD???? not letting a kid know when they are doing something good? I have NEVER heard of this.

[mamazee]

I think Alfie Kohn is largely misunderstood here. He isn't opposed to expressing your appreciation of your children and what they do, only praise that is used as a reward. Lots of parents (and educators) string "good job" after "good job" all day long, praising such activities as sitting, standing, eating, pooping, etc. Everything gets an empty "good job" after it. Praise of that nature is manipulative and isn't an honest expression of appreciation.

Here's a good article about praise from Jan Hunt that I like that I think explains the issue with praise really well: http://naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/praise.html

[dubfam]

I think Mamazee explained it perfectly!!

It was such a foreign idea me when I first read about it, but after thinking about if for a day or two a made sense.


I am very glad to have this insight. It was crazy how many times per day I would tell ds "good Job". I didn't even realize it.
Now I find more genuine things to say. I am aware of what my motives are when I am praising him for something.



.

[dancebaraka]

I heart Alfie Kohn!

This is way I think of praise...
it makes what dc is doing more about our approval of it than their experience of it.

So instead of "great drawing sweetie!"
We can offer, "what's this a drawing of?" Or "tell me about your choice of blue here..."
It just feels more respectful and engaging to me.

[DevaMajka]

I think part of the non-praise idea is that what matters is how the CHILD feels about his actions, not the judgement that we, as parents, place on them.
Praise isn't the same thing as positive feedback. We can give positive feedback without praising. Praise is a value judgement.
I definitely get excited when ds accomplishes something cool that he's excited about. But I say it in a way that it focuses on HIS accomplishment, and not on my opinion of his accomplishment, kwim?
So, I'd say "Hey Cool! You got to the top all by yourself!" in response to ds being excited about getting to the top. I wouldn't say "good job, I'm proud of you" because that turns it into something that is more about me than it is about him.

When he does something helpful or nice, I tell him how his actions affect other people. So, if he helps me clean the floor, instead of "good job" I'd tell him "It goes so much faster when you help!" or that I have more fun when he helps, etc.
If he shares, I tell him "Lily looks really happy that you let her play with that ball" instead of "good job sharing"- the former tells him how his actions affect others, and lets him make his own value judgement of his action. The latter just tells him that I like the action.

Here's another article that I prefer to AK's praise article.
Parenting Tools: Praise That Builds a Child's Self-Esteem


Basically for me, it's not about "not praising" per se. It's about celebrating WITH ds, letting ds focus on his own value judgements, letting him decide what's worthwhile and what's not, letting him know how his actions affect others, and being specific about the positive feedback that I give ds.

[karne]

I have been to a workshop with Alfie Kohn, and it was helpful to hear him explain his ideas (also covered the no-homework stance as well). Most people, ie educators, in the audience struggled at first with his stance about "good job" or praise, but in the end many agreed that there was a bit too much praise going on, and it was ending up as something that kids were working for, in and of itself. I get the idea, and I feel that more judicious use of praise and "good job" works well for our family. I think my kids have a sense of when they feel good about what they've done, and I like to give them feedback that feels authentic to their experience.

[ShaggyDaddy]

Originally Posted by laralee16

not letting a kid know when they are doing something good?

They already know when they did something they consider good. It is about not interfering with their ability to assign their own judgement.

Wow, a picture!
I like that picture
vs
You are a good boy for drawing such a nice picture for me
Good job on that picture

the first two are about expressing your feelings to your child, the second 2 are about passing judgement on the picture/child.

I have found that kids are equally thrilled with any of these reactions, but the first 2 imo don't interfere with their own ability to judge personal accomplishments.

[MammaB21]

I have heard that praise is okay if it is not mondaine. And it should be directly related to the child's efforts, not the outcome. So instead of saying, "good job picking up your toys," you should say "it looks like you are working very hard to pick up your toys." Also, my personal understanding would be that it is okay to comment on specific things, like, "you are such a good singer," or "you are great at math." But to just spit out "good job" all the time leaves something to be desired IMO.

[petra_william]

ooohhh yes!!! i live in the uk and EVERYWHERE literally, in schools, at home everyone seems to be "good boying / good girling / good jobing" kids non - stop!!
before i came across Alfie Kohn i did the same to other kids. ds was still too young. when i read his reasoning (ive got some of his books and other books on teh subject ) it all made sense to me. and i suddenly started noticing how ridiculous it can get!
praising our kids is a good thing - just not constantly all day long
girl sits down "good girl"
girl eats "is that nice? good girl"
girl asks to go to toilet "yes, good girl"
girl comes back " did you wash your hands? good girl"
girl finishes everything on her plate "good girl"
girl gets up and takes plate to dishwasher "good girl"
girl shuts the dishwasher "good girl"
girl switches teh dishwasher on "good girl"
girl goes and gets stuff to draw "good gilr"
girl draws "good girl"
girl gets a drink and drinks "good girl"
girl spills a drink "that's naughty! wipe it up! - Good girl"
girl breathes through her mouth with tongue out in concentration "stop that"
girl breathes quietly "good girl"
girl finishes drawing, parent kind of glances at it "good girl"
"put your drawing stuff away before getting that out" girl doesnt want to
"that is naughty put it back now"
"your going to go on naughty step!" (shouting)
takes girl puts her on naughty step where she stays for 4 minutes. comes out and cuddles and mum says "are you going to be a good girl now?" "yes" "good girl"

believe it or not.... i have actually come across this in real life with no exaggeration!!!!!!!!!
and its annoying too cos i cannot have a normal conversation with this person without hundreds of interruptions....

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by petra_william

ooohhh yes!!! i live in the uk and EVERYWHERE literally, in schools, at home everyone seems to be "good boying / good girling / good jobing" kids non - stop!!
before i came across Alfie Kohn i did the same to other kids. ds was still too young. when i read his reasoning (ive got some of his books and other books on teh subject ) it all made sense to me. and i suddenly started noticing how ridiculous it can get!
praising our kids is a good thing - just not constantly all day long
girl sits down "good girl"
girl eats "is that nice? good girl"
girl asks to go to toilet "yes, good girl"
girl comes back " did you wash your hands? good girl"
girl finishes everything on her plate "good girl"
girl gets up and takes plate to dishwasher "good girl"
girl shuts the dishwasher "good girl"
girl switches teh dishwasher on "good girl"
girl goes and gets stuff to draw "good gilr"
girl draws "good girl"
girl gets a drink and drinks "good girl"
girl spills a drink "that's naughty! wipe it up! - Good girl"
girl breathes through her mouth with tongue out in concentration "stop that"
girl breathes quietly "good girl"
girl finishes drawing, parent kind of glances at it "good girl"
"put your drawing stuff away before getting that out" girl doesnt want to
"that is naughty put it back now"
"your going to go on naughty step!" (shouting)
takes girl puts her on naughty step where she stays for 4 minutes. comes out and cuddles and mum says "are you going to be a good girl now?" "yes" "good girl"

believe it or not.... i have actually come across this in real life with no exaggeration!!!!!!!!!
and its annoying too cos i cannot have a normal conversation with this person without hundreds of interruptions....

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Actually, what you've described sounds precisely like the way my ILs interact with dd. "Take the sticker off the sheet. Good girl. Now put it in the book. Good girl. Now turn the page. Good girl. Who's a pretty girl? Who's a pretty girl? Say 'pretty girl'! Good girl!"

Ugh. If anyone has any advice for getting the ILs to stop this before my head explodes, I'm all ears.

I definitely "good job" sometimes, but I try really really hard not to. But, honestly, when we go to the park or to a toddler class, it's ALL WE HEAR. I think I say it sometimes reflexively b/c it's seeped into my consciousness.

[WhaleinGaloshes]

I'm a big Kohn fan, too. In Unconditional Parenting (totally worth the read, IMO) he says: we don't have to stop being positive, we just need to be unconditionally positive, which helped me enormously in understanding his message about praise.

[Mere]

Kids really need to feel validated on their own, not because someone else is telling them that they are good or worthwhile. A perfect example is a K-2 level science class for homeschoolers that my daughter is taking. They are "encouraged to bring show and tell" --and by "encouraged" I mean they get a sticker if they bring something. Well, the result is that every kid brings *something*...meaningless things that they dig up at the last second just to get that sticker (my dd included). They are totally into the "validation" ("good job!") that the sticker brings vs. actually bringing something truly interesting and worthwhile to show their fellow classmates.

[siobhang]

I am reading unconditional parenting right now. And so far what I have got from it is for us parents, we need to be thinking of OUR motivations with our children when it comes to praise or punishment.

Is our motive to teach? Or to control?

Teach means our comments are meant to demonstrate a correct answer or appropriate response (i.e. when we spill, we clean it up or if frustrated with another person, we do not use violence). Kids need to know what is expected from them and then to learn the skills to accomplish it.

When we control our kids (and sometimes they do need control), we are not usually teaching them - usually expediency is the goal - like I am not going to carefully explain about dangers of cars when my kid is standing in a busy street!

Kids do respond to carrots (praise) and sticks (punishment) but life is often more complex than simple reward/punishment. We need to make sure we avoid teaching our children that pleasing us (or avoid making us angry) is the goal, or that their worth as humans is based on pleasing their parents through achievements or good behavior.

IMO, I find Kohn short on either practical advice OR on moderating his advice with reality. For example, he makes the comment that teaching your kids to kneejerk say "sorry" when hurting someone is teaching them to lie. I think that is a. an overstatement and b. missing the point. yes, a kid saying sorry when he isn't sorry is not the truth, but we tell "white lies" every day -they are key to social cohesion. And my children will be treated better and better respected - by adults and by children - if they learn the social rules early, well before the age where they can "get" empathy and compassion. We do need to be wary of the "sorry" as a "get out of jail free" card. Saying sorry when you hurt someone is not the end of the lesson on compassion, it is the start, in my experience.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Mere

Kids really need to feel validated on their own, not because someone else is telling them that they are good or worthwhile. A perfect example is a K-2 level science class for homeschoolers that my daughter is taking. They are "encouraged to bring show and tell" --and by "encouraged" I mean they get a sticker if they bring something. Well, the result is that every kid brings *something*...meaningless things that they dig up at the last second just to get that sticker (my dd included). They are totally into the "validation" ("good job!") that the sticker brings vs. actually bringing something truly interesting and worthwhile to show their fellow classmates.

Wow perfect example!

[St. Margaret]

I loooooove Kohn. I was in education formerly and had a soft spot for him, and after becoming a parent, I read "Unconditional Parenting" and it's my favorite right now. I can't imagine saying "Good girl" to my DD; it rubs me the wrong way, like talking to a dog. That's just my instinct, tho. Anyway, I think KOhn fits with GD; the idea is no empty praise.

It took reading his entire book twice for me to really get it, tho. Everything chimed with what I know about education/motivation research, and I like that his stuff is very research based. And then I feel it fits best with my religion.

I still tell my DD when I proud of her, b/c it's times when she just WOWS me as she grows. But I don't say "good this" or "good that" all day, which I hear at the playground plenty.