"I would spank you if you were my child!" - Page 6

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by triscuitsmom

Both behaviours are ones he needs to learn not to act on. But lets look at the bigger picture, this is not a child who is maliciously attacking every child he meets...

I think this is key. This is not an out of control child who hits everyone all the time...he occasionally bats at his siblings hand when he takes a toy away..mom intervenes and explains what is wrong.

This event with the 18 mos old is a different situation. And it was unsupervised so really we have no idea what happened.

I think it is perfectly normal to react with anger when hurt. It was normal for the 4 year old and it was normal for the mother of the 18 month old. This is not the point really though. The point is this mother took her anger to a level that shouldn't be directed at ones own children(shaming and threatening)on a child in her care. This is inappropriate no matter what the child's infraction. If an adult cannot control her impulse when angry why is such behaviour expected of a 4 year old?

I think OP that the hitting problem is something that will go away with time...he will get over the stress of the new baby, adjust as the rest of your family adjusts and all will be over. Just keep a close eye on the sibs as I'm sure you already do and prevent what you can and continue to teach gentle hands and body control. Model gentleness and he will follow in kind.

Meanwhile, get a new sitter for him. I think for the sake of the friendship you need to not depend on her for childcare.

[my3peanuts]

I think the entire situation was blown way out of proportion by both of you. The only thing I'd be uspet over is the fact that your friend said she'd have spanked your son if he was her kid. That's it.

Your son hit her baby. She naturally is upset.

The title of your post is, "I would spank you if you were my child!" which leads me to believe that is what your upset over but it doesn't really sound like that's what is even making you mad. It seems like what's upsetting you is that she just doesn't understand that "kids hit! It's just what they do sometimes and we're working on it!" I'm sure she understands that but it doesn't change the fact that she's upset that your 4 year old hit her dd.

It sounds like you're more frustrated with the fact that you aren't a spanker and so you think your kids won't hit and the only kids that hit are those who's parents spank them and because your son hits and you aren't a spanker it's harder to say, "Look, because I don't spank my kids are better behaved!" Because it really seems to me like you're trying to prove who the better parent is here.

[allgirls]

Why the heck would it be OK for him to hit HIS sibling????????

If it's OK for him to hit 1 baby - why not a different baby??

HITTING ISN'T OK. IT'S NOT!!!!!

HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND??????? IT'S NOT OK FOR HIM TO HIT. ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think anyone said it was ok to hit his sibling..they said it was a normal behaviour..and it is. Acceptable, no. Normal, yeah.

The thing about kids is, until they learn, they don't know. And sometimes it takes a while to teach the lesson. Meanwhile you watch the kids and keep trying.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by blessed

I honestly don't know a single four year old who hits. I know many, many four year olds, and have one myself.

It's hard to accept that it's just a coincidence that the folks with the hitting four year olds are the same ones arguing that the kids can't help it and that it's inappropriate to act firmly with them when they hit.

My daughter didn't hit when she was four, but I know several four-year-olds who did.

Oh, I have a question too. What does "act firmly" mean?

[zipworth]

Originally Posted by Kessed

Since hitting is something I think is completely unacceptable - I would pull out the big guns EVERY TIME my child hit. What that is will depend on the child and the family. Hitting is about the only thing we plan to use time-outs for. Because IMO if a 4yo hits another child then they aren't ready to be part of things. And if a 4yo had a serious consequence each and every single time they hit someone - they will stop pretty quickly.

I guess "hitting" is something that I would take VERY seriously - and I wouldn't subject other people's children to my child is she was a know "hitter". And that's what you say your DS is. He could actually hurt an 18mo with the size difference.

Hitting isn't OK. It's not OK for a parent to hit their child. And it's not OK for a child to hit someone else. So I would say to do whatever will work for him to STOP the behavior immediately.

I'm all for "working on" good manners, and helping out around the house. But hitting is serious. And it's not OK.

What do you mean by 'Big Guns'?


I have worked in childcare since the eighties, including 6.5 years of teaching preschool, and Kindergarden. It is the rare 4 year old that doesn't hit ever! I have seen just about every method of 'Big Guns' used on children to stop undesirable behaviour, and some 4 year olds take longer than others to learn control their impulsive behaviour. Some children take repeated firm reminders to learn not to hit. I guess I really don't see what the big deal is. I think he reacted the way a lot of 4 year olds would to be honest. It doesn't make it o.k. Doesn't anyone fond it ironic that a grown woman had trouble not hitting the OP's child, but she expected him to have the same amount of control over his 4 year old impulses? I have to wonder how many 4 year olds some of you have been around?

[triscuitsmom]

Why the heck would it be OK for him to hit HIS sibling????????

If it's OK for him to hit 1 baby - why not a different baby??

HITTING ISN'T OK. IT'S NOT!!!!!

HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND??????? IT'S NOT OK FOR HIM TO HIT. ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

How hard is it to understand that she doesn't think it is??? And that I don't? I have said *over and over* I don't. In fact, I wasn't even the one that said there was a difference with siblings, and I pointed that out in my post.

The fact is this child hits. The fact is he has never hit a child outside of his home before now so it is ridiculous to assume that he's waiting to attack any other child. And when he did hit, it was not unprovoked from his perspective. AND they were unsupervised. I'm sorry, that is not his mothers fault. I agree he needs to be watched to make sure younger children (or anyone in general) is not hurt, but his caregiver (who was not his mother) did not do this, and during the time she was not doing this two children hit, not just one.

There are two things his mother addressed in her first post. One was her upset at her friend. I would be too. My children are not to be threatened. I was told by someone who was close in my life that if I were her child she'd spank me when I was younger and you can bet it felt very threatening. That is not OK in my books, and it appears it's not OK for this Mama either. It doesn't matter whether you'd let other people than you or your childs other parent if they have one threaten your child(ren) this Mama and I don't... end of story, it's not OK. She didn't say she couldn't be upset. She was upset she threatened him.

The other thing she addressed was that her son was having issues with controlling his impulse to hit in certain situations with his sibling. That certainly does need to be addressed but the Mama is not saying it's fine, she's saying she's tried a lot of things and so far he's not out of it yet.

To insinuate because her child learns differently than your child and the same techniques aren't working is her fault is unfair. She has given some ideas for things she has done, she understands this can't continue to happen, and supervising can cut down a lot but if the child is playing next to his brother he can hit before she can stop him. She could stop them from being anywhere near each other but I think that's likely to be more damaging for them both if it were even physically possible. Working on the why and respecting this childs differing needs for learning this concept will get her a lot further in the long run.

[ShannonT]

You know, my 4 year old nephew hits all the time. And it's been happening with more frequency since his dad started hitting him. Especially ironic when he gets spanked for hitting. Especially when my brother yells "Don't hit me!" and then spanks. Coincidence? :

OP, could your son have witnessed your friend spanking any of her kids? Could this hitting phase have been set off by something like that?

If she's a hitter, it's possible. And it could be affecting his behavior.

[chaoticzenmom]

Glad you talked to her and are working things out. I think that it will help in the future that she knows that you were upset. A little tiff never hurt anyone.

It does seem like you two are having a "who's the better parent" kind of relationship. I've been in those and they're really frustrating. Especially if you're the one constantly defending yourself. I had one friend that I loved, but always tried to discipline my children and get me to put them into a daycare for a few hours so we could shop She also wanted me to force them to eat, etc. I didn't want to be like her, but apparently, she thought I had no clue how to do things. Anyway, I can relate.

Lisa

[soybeansmama]

Originally Posted by lisa49

Glad you talked to her and are working things out. I think that it will help in the future that she knows that you were upset. A little tiff never hurt anyone.

It does seem like you two are having a "who's the better parent" kind of relationship. I've been in those and they're really frustrating. Especially if you're the one constantly defending yourself. I had one friend that I loved, but always tried to discipline my children and get me to put them into a daycare for a few hours so we could shop She also wanted me to force them to eat, etc. I didn't want to be like her, but apparently, she thought I had no clue how to do things. Anyway, I can relate.

Lisa

We have learned a lot from eachother...we have had some non spoken, pent up frusterations with eachother that were talked about for the first time today. She feels defensive a lot...we also talked about that. We are going to have playtime at her house on those occasions that she can bring him home. We are going to take a few weeks off though to clear the air.

[allgirls]

Originally Posted by soybeansmama

We have learned a lot from eachother...we have had some non spoken, pent up frusterations with eachother that were talked about for the first time today. She feels defensive a lot...we also talked about that. We are going to have playtime at her house on those occasions that she can bring him home. We are going to take a few weeks off though to clear the air.

wonderful! glad to hear you have worked things out!

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by zipworth

What do you mean by 'Big Guns'?

Whatever works for that child.

I would use the same tactics that I would use to prevent my child from running into traffic. Or some other dangerous activity.

Let's change the situation a bit. Let's say this 4yo figured out how to unbuckle his car seat? And let's say that he did this while the OP's friend was driving him. And let's say that she flipped out about it. fWould people say things like "Some kids just take longer to learn to stay in their car seat" or "It's natural and undertandable - she totally over reacted"?

[blessed]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Oh, I have a question too. What does "act firmly" mean?

This has been covered already. But how the friend reacted would be one example. She let him know how wrong the hitting was.

For me it would be to not conceal my anger and disappointment from the child, but to allow him to see how upsetting the hitting was for me. I wouldn't talk to him or reason with him or say things like 'hands are for hugging in our home!' I would square off with him and say "No, absolutely not. We do NOT hit in this home. EVER. You need to go home right now and you're not to come back for the rest of the day."

And I would arrange for him to leave my home. After that incident I wouldn't have him back except with arrangments that he could be dropped off immediately in the case of further hitting.

We had a similar problem with our neighbor's 3 yo. This child was spanked, shamed, grounded, yelled at... Nothing worked (surprise!) and she was a big time hitter. After one time of being sent home from my house she has never hit (my child, anyway) again.

Kids know what time of day it is. They know what they can get away with and what they can't.

ETA: I'm really glad you (OP) are working things out with your friend also. The incident ended up being way overblown.

[pottermama]

Originally Posted by ramama

I respectfully disagree here. We have to keep in mind that this 4yo has an infant sibling. These kind of stressors can cause problems with hitting, bed-wetting, temper tantrums, and all sorts of stuff. I don't think that phases are so clear-cut. A child dealing with a newly-mobile sibling may resort to hitting in order to protect his space and his stuff. In this instance it's totally understandable to go through a hitting phase at 4. He's got a lot of new things to deal with and I know that my 4yo can easily become overloaded.

Soybeansmama, I LOVE the art idea! I may give it a try with my 4yo!

Yarngoddess, your post just truly rocked. I couldn't agree more!

: My dd1 is 4 and has a new sibling who is just learning to crawl. She has never been a hitter, but now she does it every once in a while when her space is being intruded. It doesn't make it right but she is a child who is learning how to respond in different situations.

Originally Posted by Kessed

Hitting is different. It isn't OK for a child to hit - no matter what the "stressors" are...

Protecting their stuff is a total bogus argument to excuse something which isn't acceptable...

It is black and white. And children can understand that. Hitting isn't allowed. It just isn't.

It isn't okay for a child to hit but that doesn't mean a child won't make a mistake. Isn't one of the maxims of child behavior, " Children learn by doing, so don't expect to approve of everything they do" ?

Originally Posted by Kessed

In this thread she hasn't expressed 'concern'... She says it's a "phase" and tries to explain it away. In this thread she has completely minimized his actions.

I'm not sure how else to say this - but it is NOT acceptable for a 4yo to hit. If I had a 4yo who hit - they certainly wouldn't be having fun play dates with other kids, especially with a much younger kid.

The OP seems to think that it's OK for her son to hit because they are "working on it"... What the heck is there to work on? You just don't hit! It's not like remembering to say "thank-you" or "please". Those are things you work on. If you can't trust a 4yo not to hit - then they shouldn't be out of your site/reach so that you can prevent them from doing it.

I guess I don't understand why she's getting all this support and being told not to let her kid be watched by that 'evil' woman who had the audacity to tell her kid off for HITTING her toddler!!!! Her son is 4!!!!! And should know better.

The only way for a child to learn not to do something is to work on it with them. If anger is making them hit, finding another way to express that anger is the only way to solve a problem long term. A 4 year old is still young. That doesn't excuse hitting but I simply don't think having them hold in their anger is good either. Working with them helps them to find other outlets. Telling them it's not okay to hit but then telling them you feel like hitting them is a total contradiction.

[zipworth]

Originally Posted by Kessed

Whatever works for that child.

I would use the same tactics that I would use to prevent my child from running into traffic. Or some other dangerous activity.

Let's change the situation a bit. Let's say this 4yo figured out how to unbuckle his car seat? And let's say that he did this while the OP's friend was driving him. And let's say that she flipped out about it. fWould people say things like "Some kids just take longer to learn to stay in their car seat" or "It's natural and undertandable - she totally over reacted"?

This actually isn't an uncommon scenario with 4 year olds, but pulling over the car and buckling them back in; talking to police officers; getting a new car seat that is difficult to unbuckle; getting a sitter instead of bringing the child; having an adult sit in the back with the child.....there are many options besides threatening to hit a child.

OP I am really glad you seem to have come to some sort of peaceful resolution with your friend. Parenting can be so intense and emotional!

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by pottermama

The only way for a child to learn not to do something is to work on it with them. If anger is making them hit, finding another way to express that anger is the only way to solve a problem long term. A 4 year old is still young. That doesn't excuse hitting but I simply don't think having them hold in their anger is good either. Working with them helps them to find other outlets. Telling them it's not okay to hit but then telling them you feel like hitting them is a total contradiction.

I don't think it's acceptable to subject other children to being hit while he figures out a better way to deal with his anger...

It is possible to stop the hitting by doing something drastic - like a time-out, or going home EVERY time - and then come up with better ways to deal with anger/frustration second.

I think that it's horrible that the OP is letting her new baby be hit "swiped at" on a regular basis while her son "figures it out". That's not parenting - that's ridiculous.

The OPs son needs to learn right now, that he can't hit other people. Deal with that first - and then move on.

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by zipworth

This actually isn't an uncommon scenario with 4 year olds, but pulling over the car and buckling them back in; talking to police officers; getting a new car seat that is difficult to unbuckle; getting a sitter instead of bringing the child; having an adult sit in the back with the child.....there are many options besides threatening to hit a child.

No one threatened to hit the child!!!!!!!!!!

The OP's friend indicated to the boy how seriously she took having her baby hit - by telling him how she'd react if he was her son. The OP's son probably knows that his friend gets spanked for really serious things. And so - she let him know how seriously she took this.

According to the OP - the mother never said she'd hit him the next time or anything like that.

[soybeansmama]

Originally Posted by Kessed

I don't think it's acceptable to subject other children to being hit while he figures out a better way to deal with his anger...

It is possible to stop the hitting by doing something drastic - like a time-out, or going home EVERY time - and then come up with better ways to deal with anger/frustration second.

I think that it's horrible that the OP is letting her new baby be hit "swiped at" on a regular basis while her son "figures it out". That's not parenting - that's ridiculous.

The OPs son needs to learn right now, that he can't hit other people. Deal with that first - and then move on.

Kessed, this is just an aweful thing to say. Of course I am not letting my child be hit...Sawyer hasn't actually made contact with his brothers body in a few weeks because I am always there to stop it or redirect it or remove one of them from the situation.

It really shocks me that there is such a tone here.

This is a Gentle Discipline forum not a "say what ever kind of mean crap you want because you're never going to meet these people in real life" forum.

Go hug a tree or pet a kitten or get your love tank filled however you need to...You seem to be feeling a bit snarkalicious.

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by soybeansmama

Kessed, this is just an aweful thing to say. Of course I am not letting my child be hit...Sawyer hasn't actually made contact with his brothers body in a few weeks because I am always there to stop it or redirect it or remove one of them from the situation.

That's not the impression you give in your OP. The words you chose indicate that it's currently a regular thing for your DS1 to hit your DS2.

It really shocks me that there is such a tone here.

This is a Gentle Discipline forum not a "say what ever kind of mean crap you want because you're never going to meet these people in real life" forum.

GD doesn't mean "no discipline"... And that's what you're advocating. If your child is still hitting - at least weeks after he started - then you aren't doing anything about it.

And I'm not saying mean stuff. I'm saying the truth.

My tone is because I CANNOT believe that you are upset because the other woman yelled at your son AFTER he HIT!!!!!!! her baby.

Go hug a tree or pet a kitten or get your love tank filled however you need to...You seem to be feeling a bit snarkalicious.

Whatever...

[tatermom]

Originally Posted by soybeansmama

Kessed, this is just an aweful thing to say. Of course I am not letting my child be hit...Sawyer hasn't actually made contact with his brothers body in a few weeks because I am always there to stop it or redirect it or remove one of them from the situation.

It really shocks me that there is such a tone here.

This is a Gentle Discipline forum not a "say what ever kind of mean crap you want because you're never going to meet these people in real life" forum.

Go hug a tree or pet a kitten or get your love tank filled however you need to...You seem to be feeling a bit snarkalicious.

I agree! I can't believe how mean this thread has gotten! OP, I just wanted to say that I love the idea of the poster you are making with your DS-- what a nice, positive project to work on with him! I have a 3 yo and a 10 mo and the 3 yo has definitely been on the defensive, and quick to decide that the baby is a "threat" to him since the DS2 has become mobile. DS2 will try to tackle DS1, pull his hair, and try to grab DS1's toy from him (obviously I intervene when this happens!), and it's very very hard for DS1 to resist hitting or pushing DS2 in return-- and I don't blame him at all for having those impulses. Even a baby can really hurt you! Our big problem was DS1 pushing DS2 if he feels threatened, and one idea we had was to put "no pushing" signs all over the house. DS1 helped me write them, and we refer to them a lot, both when DS1 tries to push DS2 and when DS2 tackles DS1 (though of course the baby doesn't understand, but it helps DS1 to see that DS2 is being told the same rules). Just an idea for you...

Good luck, OP. I'm glad you are working things out with your friend. I agree that mothering can be a lonely business, so friends, even those who have different parenting styles, should be cherished. I hope you and your friend can come to a place where you agree to disagree on some topics and to respect each other. And I'm sorry for the responses here from people who do not understand how different kids of the same age can be from one another, and how stressful it can be on a preschooler who has a newly mobile sibling.

[soybeansmama]

love the idea and I can see this being more of a tactic that would work for us.
thanks