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"I would spank you if you were my child!" - Page 8

post #141 of 194
I think the part that was irksome was that the OP was criticizing this other mother for responding to hitting with indignation and anger - which many of us are arguing is one of the best ways to demonstrate to children that hitting is wrong. They see that hitting is serious business, and that it won't be tolerated.

It's easy to appreciate that not all children will respond to similar methods. But this seemed like a case in which the OP had not ever tried this approach, the other mother did, chances are it probably would have worked, and yet OP then undermined the entire thing by being mad at the other mom.

When dd was hit by her 3 yo friend, I responded with rigid discipline and expectations for that child. And it worked. She knows she cannot come to our house and hit. If her mother had attacked me for my way of handling it, and then consistently failed to deal with the problem herself - without even trying methods that had worked well for countless other children - then my solution would have been for that child to not return to our home.
post #142 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
I think the part that was irksome was that the OP was criticizing this other mother for responding to hitting with indignation and anger - which many of us are arguing is one of the best ways to demonstrate to children that hitting is wrong. They see that hitting is serious business, and that it won't be tolerated.
EXACTLY.
post #143 of 194
I am glad you and your friend are trying to work this out. I think it sets a good example for our kids that friends can disagree but still be friends and find some common ground. It also sounds like he plays with his friend often and it would be sad for him to lose his friend.

I am sorry this thread got ugly and I am glad you sound like it has not hurt you and you can handle it, but I have to admit to being someone who feels that 4 and a half is old enough to have the impulse control not to hit. I guess reading the thread it felt like alot of people were saying that it is totally normal behavior and I would disagree. It is not unheard of, but I have worked at one preschool and been involved in my DD coop preschool and can only think of 2 kids who were still hitting when someone got in their space at that age, so I don't think it is the norm either. It just sounds like this has been going on for a long time, is it why you pulled him out of preschool? Were his teachers helpful with any advise for you? I hear the attitude on here to that they can't help it and I would disagree again unless there is some special need. I wonder if the parents who believe that their child cannot control their impulse to hit pass this believe on to their kids so that the kids think they are not in control of their actions when their emotions get big.

A boy in my older DD's kindergarten class recently pushed my 10 month old down and it really pissed me off. My first reaction after consoling my baby was to think WTF?, because I do think a five year old can control the hitting impulse.
post #144 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
I think the part that was irksome was that the OP was criticizing this other mother for responding to hitting with indignation and anger - which many of us are arguing is one of the best ways to demonstrate to children that hitting is wrong. They see that hitting is serious business, and that it won't be tolerated.

It's easy to appreciate that not all children will respond to similar methods. But this seemed like a case in which the OP had not ever tried this approach, the other mother did, chances are it probably would have worked, and yet OP then undermined the entire thing by being mad at the other mom.

When dd was hit by her 3 yo friend, I responded with rigid discipline and expectations for that child. And it worked. She knows she cannot come to our house and hit. If her mother had attacked me for my way of handling it, and then consistently failed to deal with the problem herself - without even trying methods that had worked well for countless other children - then my solution would have been for that child to not return to our home.
Your idea of "rigid discipline" is punishment. Other parents have given you reasons why we don't agree with punishment. Punishment might at least keep the behavior from happening when you can see it for a while, but it is not a solution to impulse control, control of anger, lack of empathy, or any other cause of hitting, and therefore is not a long-term or real solution. If the mom had simply expressed anger and sent him home, that would have been fine, but to talk about spanking (which, yes, is an implied threat if not an implicit one) is wrong. And to verbally attack the mom afterward for what is within the realm of normal behavior for a 4-year-old afterward because she doesn't spank is also wrong.
post #145 of 194
To each his own, but responding with indignation and anger is different from yelling at a 4yo until he is broken.

It's strange that we're expecting a higher level of impulse-control from a 4yo than we are from a mother who lacked the impulse-control to refrain from verbally assailing said 4yo. It makes me wonder if impulse-control really exists at all for anyone, or if we just justify behavior by calling different names as we age (such as "mama bear" instinct).
post #146 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
Your idea of "rigid discipline" is punishment..
You have an odd sense of what constitutes punishment. If dd hit me in the head with something heavy and I responded with cries of pain, would you consider that punishment also? If not, I'm not sure why the natural response of anger and indignation to being hit that we all experience should be considered punishment.

In any case, it's as I said before. Kids know what is what. This girl figured out that she can't hit at my house and still hang around here, so she just stopped. Even though she had this intractible 'hitting problem' that no one could seem to break.

Imagine that.
post #147 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
I think the part that was irksome was that the OP was criticizing this other mother for responding to hitting with indignation and anger - which many of us are arguing is one of the best ways to demonstrate to children that hitting is wrong. They see that hitting is serious business, and that it won't be tolerated.

It's easy to appreciate that not all children will respond to similar methods. But this seemed like a case in which the OP had not ever tried this approach, the other mother did, chances are it probably would have worked, and yet OP then undermined the entire thing by being mad at the other mom.

When dd was hit by her 3 yo friend, I responded with rigid discipline and expectations for that child. And it worked. She knows she cannot come to our house and hit. If her mother had attacked me for my way of handling it, and then consistently failed to deal with the problem herself - without even trying methods that had worked well for countless other children - then my solution would have been for that child to not return to our home.
A lot of things are going to work for others that are not going to work for the parent. And just because they work in the moment, does not mean it is the best way to handle it. Actually, I think your idea of telling a child that repeatedly hits your kids, they are not going to be allowed to play anymore is much more reasonable.

Reacting strongly to your own child with an "I'm not going to tolerate this" approach can really backfire. Children will often do what upsets their parent most as a way to gain attention or get a reaction.

I think it is unfair to criticize OP for being upset with another parent for treating her child in a way she would never dream of. Mama Bear came out of the other mom, and it came out of OP too.
post #148 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramama View Post
It's strange that we're expecting a higher level of impulse-control from a 4yo than we are from a mother..
No we're not. This mother never hauled off and smacked this kid, the way the four year did with her toddler.

If she had, this thread would have gone very, very differently, I assure you.
post #149 of 194
Impulsiveness usually manifests in children in a physical nature, and verbally for adults. This woman did far more damage with her impulsive words that the child did. So as long as we don't hit we're allowed to haul off and yell at a 4yo child who isn't yours? As long as we don't hit?
post #150 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessed View Post
I don't think it's acceptable to subject other children to being hit while he figures out a better way to deal with his anger...

It is possible to stop the hitting by doing something drastic - like a time-out, or going home EVERY time - and then come up with better ways to deal with anger/frustration second.

I think that it's horrible that the OP is letting her new baby be hit "swiped at" on a regular basis while her son "figures it out". That's not parenting - that's ridiculous.

The OPs son needs to learn right now, that he can't hit other people. Deal with that first - and then move on.
The little kid is four years old. It's not like he could seriously injure his sibling. I have a 3.5 year old and a 1.5 year old and they both sometimes swipe at each other. If one of them gets hurt then I take care of that one. If neither are hurt I work with them on why hitting is not acceptable and give them ideas and alternatives. My son very rarely, like not even 2ce a month, hits at his little sister. Right now we're working on him getting my attention if something is happening rather than going after his sister himself. I prefer to be proactive by teaching my kids what to do in a situation rather than going directly into a punishment.
post #151 of 194
Thread Starter 
I find it equally irksome and (quite ironic really) that people aren't even really reading the posts. The repetition is exhausting...

I was not mad at the other mamas anger...I was mad at what she said and even angrier at her gloating afterwards. There is a history of this in our relationship. We are making ammends. we have explained our frusteration to eachother and there has been forgiveness.

I have tried many approaches. this is serious for me. I have pulled ideas out of my ars on this issue.

I don't believe that hitting is ever ok...at any age...for all living creatures.

I will respost this as needed.
post #152 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
You have an odd sense of what constitutes punishment. If dd hit me in the head with something heavy and I responded with cries of pain, would you consider that punishment also? If not, I'm not sure why the natural response of anger and indignation to being hit that we all experience should be considered punishment.
I thought you said you'd use time outs. That would be punishment.

Cries of pain and expression of anger are not punishment. Talking about spanking is a threat of punishment - implied rather than implicit but still a threat.
post #153 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by soybeansmama View Post
I find it equally irksome and (quite ironic really) that people aren't even really reading the posts. The repetition is exhausting...

I was not mad at the other mamas anger...I was mad at what she said and even angrier at her gloating afterwards. There is a history of this in our relationship. We are making ammends. we have explained our frusteration to eachother and there has been forgiveness.

I have tried many approaches. this is serious for me. I have pulled ideas out of my ars on this issue.

I don't believe that hitting is ever ok...at any age...for all living creatures.

I will respost this as needed.
I agree. It would have been much more acceptable (and adult-like) if your friend had said to your son "I am very angry about this and I'll speak to your mother about how we should handle it." Perhaps the two of you can come up with a list of suitable ways to handle situations that would not violate either of your parenting philosophies. It goes both ways, too. I assume (and I know the danger of assuming) that even though she spanks her children, she would not like you to spank hers? You both would probably come up with a list of remedies that wouldn't be all that different. It's hard with close friends. Sometimes boundaries get blurred.
post #154 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
I thought you said you'd use time outs. That would be punishment..
Yes it would. We've never used them, and I didn't say that.
post #155 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramama View Post
I agree. It would have been much more acceptable (and adult-like) if your friend had said to your son "I am very angry about this and I'll speak to your mother about how we should handle it." ..
And this would not have worked. His mother has talked to him about hitting ad nauseum.

What worked was the realization that: WOW! When I hit someone it is a BIG DEAL. They don't just talk to me, or remind me, or encourage me to do something else. They get really angry. Gee, it must really hurt when I do that. I'll think twice about doing that again, because it really bothers me to see my friends and loved ones this upset.
post #156 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
I hear people saying, "I simply wouldn't allow it" not realizing that it isn't that simple. You can not allow things and express anger when they happen, and they can still happen. This is life with kids. At that point, you have the choice to punish or to work on what's causing the behavior. I don't think punishment works. That doesn't mean I don't believe punishment works but I'd use it in some cases anyway. I simply don't believe it works.
Do you 'allow' your child to run into a busy street?
post #157 of 194
I personally don't "allow" my child to run into a busy street because when she is near a busy street, I am there to not "allow" it. Again, this mother wasn't even in the room, so "allowing" or not "allowing" is irrelevant. If she wouldn't allow her 18 mo old to be hit, then perhaps she should have been there. Again.
post #158 of 194
It always makes me laugh when I read the posts of, "Well, we just wouldn't allow it. Period."

Dude, my kid hit for a full year. Starting at 18 mos. he hit anything and everything. And yes, I worked my ass off on turning it around (you can read lots and lots of my posts in this forum about it). But my acceptance or not had NO effect on my kids hitting. None.

Turned out he had a huge frustration at not being able to speak and communicate. And serious food allergies which resulted in aggressive and violent behavior.

And now he's 6.5 and he won't even hit back in self-defense. He's kind and gentle and plays with the babies and is sweet to animals.

And he's got a baby brother who is now also a hitter. He's almost 3. And that's been going on for months now, too.

And I'm working my butt off with him also so he has different coping techniques and tools.

But if I just got in either of their faces and sternly told them what was what....they both would have slapped me.

God bless those whose kids never hit or hit once and stop. Count your blessings. Because I wouldn't wish the hitting on my worst enemy. It's exhausting and draining and people who haven't lived it do not have a clue.

So, yeah.....I'm not ashamed of my kids prolonged hitting phases. As long as mamas are present and working hard to protect others and doing the work that needs to be done, then there's no shame in that.

Threatening a small child with violence for being violent? That's pretty lame.

(Oh, and when my oldest was hitting there were a few times where I totally lost it and hit him back. Hard. And not in a spanking way. And that didn't stop him from hitting either. I'm pretty sure he knew I was furious and his actions were unacceptable. But, yeah....it's not really about that.)
post #159 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
And this would not have worked. His mother has talked to him about hitting ad nauseum.

What worked was the realization that: WOW! When I hit someone it is a BIG DEAL. They don't just talk to me, or remind me, or encourage me to do something else. They get really angry. Gee, it must really hurt when I do that. I'll think twice about doing that again, because it really bothers me to see my friends and loved ones this upset.
We're assuming that what the other woman did "worked" and I think that is an impossible assumption. To my knowledge, the child had not been back over that woman's house, so saying that verbal abuse "works" is dangerous.
post #160 of 194
Thread Starter 
He hasn't been back there yet...we are taking some time off.
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