"I would spank you if you were my child!" - Page 3

[Magella]

Originally Posted by blessed

It's a complete cop out to act as though a fouir year old can't understand or respond with restraint when feeling the urge to hit. You do your son a disservice by acting as though that is the case.

If a four year old couldn't resist the urge to hit there would be no surviving little brothers, sister, or pets in anyone's household. And preschools and daycares would be unable to exist.

Originally Posted by blessed

I think many of us are saying that we all got our children to learn the seriousness of hitting, and not to do it, by the same method that this mom used. Showing the child the true emotions that hitting causes: anger, indignation, hurt.

This method works, because kids see what hitting really is.

I very much disagree with such sweeping statements about 4 year olds. A lot of 4 year olds do hit from time to time-and they do it in daycares and preschools all over, it's quite common, and still everyone survives. And those kids who still hit at 4 often outgrow that, and do develop into kind and gentle older kids (eta this is not to say that a child who hits at times is not also a kind and gentle child overall). Your method may work for many kids, but it certainly isn't an instantly and permanently successful method for all kids. For some kids this kind of emotional regulation and impulse control is a little harder, and takes a little longer, to learn--not the result of poor parenting. Kids develop at different paces.

OP, I do think your friend was way off base to 1) tell your son that he's mean and 2) threaten him with physical violence (even if she did not act on it). This is an inappropriate way of expressing her very real and understandable (from a mama-bear perspective) feelings. An appropriate, mature angry reaction would have been to simply say "don't hit! That hurts!" with an angry tone. She was way out of line. I'm sorry this happened, and that she's refusing to speak with you.

[mykdsmomy]

I have to add something here. I'm a mom to many children. I've babysat several children.....I have friends with large families. Hitting is wrong but it happens ALL. THE. TIME.

Children are LEARNING. They are learning how to control their impulses. It is not uncommon for preschoolers to hit or push when they are upset. It is way over the top inappropriate for anyone (imo) to FLIP OUT if their child is on the receiving end of a typical preschool behavior.

My kids have been hit by other children. I dont flip out on the child.....I will remove the child from the situation and explain to them that hitting is wrong and hitting hurts and possibly enforce a time out......but I wouldnt dream of verbally abusing a child because they hit my toddler.

If you think your own child would never hurt another child or hit , then good for you.....then dont babysit other children because it can and does happen. (eta: my oldest is girl and she never hit....was very passive and sweet.....I learned about more aggresive typical preschool behavior from my son and my friends boys...lol)

[nichole]

Well, my now four year old was 2.5 when his brother was born. So it is a little different, but he went through a hitting, throwing, and knocking his brother down phase that I'm ashamed to say lasted about a year. Being a mama bear really didn't help. And boy, did the mama bear come out in me. The only thing that helped was very close supervision, showing him how to work things out without violence, and lots of 1 on 1 time with him.

He is four now. Just the other day, he bit his brother while I was on the phone. I think by having a lengthy phone call while they were bored was not a good idea. It put him in a position he was not able to deal with. That was the first time he bit him in a LOOONG time. He knows it is wrong. His impulse control is not as good as it should be. I did talk to him, have him go calm down in his room, make sure he knew it was wrong, etc. Since then he also did something similar really out of the blue, but not as bad. I was so mad, that I told him no more tv for the day. I think I actually overreacted a bit with the no tv, but it has to stop.

Sometimes I'm torn on letting him no how angry I am, but not wanting to overreact.

[soybeansmama]

I also watch kids 3 days a week...a 4 year old girl and a 2 year old boy. I have seen lots of pushing, tackling, tug o war over toys, etc. I expect it. That doesn't mean I believe that it is OK, I just have realistic expectations of that type of dynamic. My 9 month old son has been the victim of older kids mean hands on occasion. I have raised my voice and have spoken very seriously to the children involved, but I don't believe that shaming, threatening, yelling, etc is effective. What has been most effective, though, is keeping my baby out of harms way...

RAMAMA, I have been so caught up in my anger over this that I didn't even think too much about the fact that they were all playing together unsupervised. They were in the other room and had to explain to her what happened...she didn't even witness it. I have done that when the older kids are playing together, but would never leave the baby to free range without being in the room. Thanks for bringing that up.

MYKDSMOMY...I agree with and appreciate your post. We actually took my son out of preschool because the interactions were negative. It was anxiety provoking for him. He is a very hands on, active, sensitive and spirited child. He experiences emotions in a big, deep way. Sometimes I think he feels overwhelmed by a lot of activity around him. These seem to be the scenerios that trigger his physically acting out. We are still learning together how to handle things. This is the first time I have ever parented a 4 and half year old boy...I am overwhelmed and baffled most a lot of the time. The random moments of clarity that I experience are a treat...

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by blessed

I think the point is that this mama reacted appropriately to having her baby hit by a four year old.

We don't spank, so I wouldn't have threatened spanking. But what I would have done was responded with anger and indignation - the way she did - and then told him that he was going to have to leave our house.

It's a complete cop out to act as though a fouir year old can't understand or respond with restraint when feeling the urge to hit. You do your son a disservice by acting as though that is the case.

If a four year old couldn't resist the urge to hit there would be no surviving little brothers, sister, or pets in anyone's household. And preschools and daycares would be unable to exist.

ITA

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by soybeansmama

I am not copping out of anything...we are working with him daily. I just was trying to understand him... I can't help him if I don't understand why is is doing something.

what are the consequences when he hits?

[krystyn33]

Originally Posted by soybeansmama

I have raised my voice and have spoken very seriously to the children involved, but I don't believe that shaming, threatening, yelling, etc is effective.

:

Expressing anger via name calling & threatening the child is not exactly an appropriate adult response, nor is it an effective way to model impulse control or handling anger. Not that we can be perfect all the time, but this woman, who seems unwilling to consider that she might not be 100% right in her perspective, was not setting a good example IMO.

Kids are different--some will have a harder time mastering impulse control than others--some things you just can't control, unless you resort to authoritarian methods which don't gel with GD. I'm glad the OP remains confident (despite some comments here) that she is doing best in dealing with her child's issue in her way.

[mykdsmomy]

Originally Posted by D_McG

what are the consequences when he hits?

What does it matter what the consequences are? We all have different opinions on what the "right" consequence should be in different situations. Are you implying that the OP doesnt give her dc appropriate consequences to his actions?

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

What does it matter what the consequences are? We all have different opinions on what the "right" consequence should be in different situations. Are you implying that the OP doesnt give her dc appropriate consequences to his actions?

I'm just curious if there are any. I understand being upset at the spanking threat but I don't understand the outrage at the other mom's anger. the mom was angry. Of course she was. I am just trying to understand

[yarngoddess]

While I do honestly believe that in some children hitting, regardless of how they are parented, is a totally emotional thing. I think that you are doing great in your approach with him, and how you are handleing it. I don't think that's the issue in this thread.

I think the Friend, the mamma bear, is the reason for this thread. I think that this is one situation where the friendship is going to suddenly be on the surface wayve HI and carry on with your everyday life. I don't think that things are going to change even if you do get her to talk to you again.

Why would you want her to? This is just another notch in the belt of differences between you- and it's just going to get bigger, wider and more full of notches as your children continue to grow up and out. This maybe a friendship that you have invested years into- but your CHILD and your family are FOREVER!!! You are going to have friends that come and go in your life, and some will be for the long haul, some will be only for a short time. I think that you have gained all that you can from this relationship and it's time to end it now with out any more stress.

Ultimately, if this lady were a true respectful friend she would have NEVER said that to YOUR child- even if she felt that, or would have said that to her own child. She knows how you feel about YOUR children, as you know how she feels how about her kids. It's like saying "Oh- your a vegetarian- HERE KID HAVE A STEAK" granted this is very different, but it's still disrespectfull and against your values and wishes.

I'm so sorry. For the loss of this friendship, because it will never be the same again, and for the confusion and stress this has caused your son. I'm also sorry that your son is hitting, as I too know how frustrating that can be and how it can effect all aspects of your life. Hugs- I hope you find your center in all this and learn from it, for that's what we are to do- LEARN to be/do better!

HUGS again.

[A_Random_Phrase]

Originally Posted by mykdsmomy

I have to add something here. I'm a mom to many children. I've babysat several children.....I have friends with large families. Hitting is wrong but it happens ALL. THE. TIME.

Children are LEARNING. They are learning how to control their impulses. It is not uncommon for preschoolers to hit or push when they are upset. It is way over the top inappropriate for anyone (imo) to FLIP OUT if their child is on the receiving end of a typical preschool behavior.

My kids have been hit by other children. I don't flip out on the child.....I will remove the child from the situation and explain to them that hitting is wrong and hitting hurts and possibly enforce a time out......but I wouldn't dream of verbally abusing a child because they hit my toddler.

If you think your own child would never hurt another child or hit , then good for you.....then don't babysit other children because it can and does happen. (eta: my oldest is girl and she never hit....was very passive and sweet.....I learned about more aggressive typical preschool behavior from my son and my friends boys...lol)

Exactly. I was thinking along these lines as I read this thread. It is sad that things got so angry, but children do hit. If I had been the babysitter, I don't think I would have been so enraged unless my baby was bloody or bruised. It doesn't sound like that is the case. I would have been stern with the child (not yelling) and told him ... well, ideally, I would have found out what happened first but we don't always do that. But with "knowing" that the 18 month old child hit first, I would talk about that. Maybe she was playing. (Maybe she hit because she has been hit or had seed someone hit and so she was imitating). Maybe he did something she didn't like. I'd explain to him that we don't hit. If we have a problem with a child we try to find peaceful ways of dealing with things. I would also have talked to the 18 month old. I wouldn't have banned the 4 year old from my home unless he had a habit of hitting. Hit the toddler once, learning lesson. Hit the toddler twice, "Are you sure you want to visit here?" Hit the toddler three times, "Bye bye." (I'm assuming typical 4 year old hits here)

The mamabear rage did come out in me once when two boys I didn't know were fooling around with each other and one smashed my baby's hand in the door by slamming it on her (she was crawling age and we were at her grandma's house and I didn't have time to move her away from them). (And she screamed bloody murder - it could have broken her hand) I grabbed him and pushed him up against the door before I realized what I was doing (both his parents were in the room). Luckily, sanity returned but I did angrily tell him not to ever do that to my baby again (he was 7-8 years old, I'd guess). But I'm not proud of losing my sanity. I never am.

I wouldn't want to throw around accusations but it seems to me that the mom has many issues with you (perhaps she's feeling guilty or feels like the two of you are secretly at war) and her feelings just kept building and building until she exploded at your child. And then used that as a reason to make a dig at you. And now to end the friendship. It may blow over, but even if it does it would be good if you could find friends with views similar to your own. Jealousy or guilt can really escalate - or even a growing anger because you are "doing it wrong." When I was around three, I prayed for a trike for Christmas. I told my mother I was going to get one. She said we couldn't afford one. I told her it was okay because God was going to get it for me not her. She had a friend there and the friend told her that she should spank me for talking to her like that. Mom replied, "If God told her he's going to give her a trike, who am I to say anything?" (I did get the trike, by the way - and not through anything my mother did). After I grew up (I'm the youngest), I visited the lady and she often marveled at how we grew up to be such nice adults and her kids had grown up not, when she had raised her kids right and my mom had not.

[soybeansmama]

Originally Posted by yarngoddess

While I do honestly believe that in some children hitting, regardless of how they are parented, is a totally emotional thing. I think that you are doing great in your approach with him, and how you are handleing it. I don't think that's the issue in this thread.

I think the Friend, the mamma bear, is the reason for this thread. I think that this is one situation where the friendship is going to suddenly be on the surface wayve HI and carry on with your everyday life. I don't think that things are going to change even if you do get her to talk to you again.

Why would you want her to? This is just another notch in the belt of differences between you- and it's just going to get bigger, wider and more full of notches as your children continue to grow up and out. This maybe a friendship that you have invested years into- but your CHILD and your family are FOREVER!!! You are going to have friends that come and go in your life, and some will be for the long haul, some will be only for a short time. I think that you have gained all that you can from this relationship and it's time to end it now with out any more stress.

Ultimately, if this lady were a true respectful friend she would have NEVER said that to YOUR child- even if she felt that, or would have said that to her own child. She knows how you feel about YOUR children, as you know how she feels how about her kids. It's like saying "Oh- your a vegetarian- HERE KID HAVE A STEAK" granted this is very different, but it's still disrespectfull and against your values and wishes.

I'm so sorry. For the loss of this friendship, because it will never be the same again, and for the confusion and stress this has caused your son. I'm also sorry that your son is hitting, as I too know how frustrating that can be and how it can effect all aspects of your life. Hugs- I hope you find your center in all this and learn from it, for that's what we are to do- LEARN to be/do better!

HUGS again.

I am in tears over this post...
I am so discouraged because I feel so isolated as a parent. Motherhood can be a very isolating experience. It begins in labor with you first child, where you think for a minute that no one on earth has ever experienced the immense joy and pain that you are going through. Then those feelings come up again when you have such frusteration with your child that you can't believe that anyone on earth has felt this inadequet (sp)

I honestly have compassion for this mom. I believe her anger and her outburst was an expression of her frusteration with herself. I honestly believe she doesn't want to parent like this, but feels helpless and hopeless and out of ideas. I have been there many times. I am saddened that she has chosen to express herself in this way.

[A_Random_Phrase]

It can be lonely, frustrating, and discouraging. We aren't there with you in person but a lot of us here are supporting you.

[soybeansmama]

Originally Posted by D_McG

I'm just curious if there are any. I understand being upset at the spanking threat but I don't understand the outrage at the other mom's anger. the mom was angry. Of course she was. I am just trying to understand

There are most certainly consequences for hitting. I try to keep them as natural as possible like, hit with a toy=you don't get to play with that toy. More importantly I am trying to understand if there is something I can do so that the hitting doesn't happen in the first place.

Again, Sawyer learns in a different than most other kids that I have had experience with. We are in the middle of an art project to help him remember that hands are not for hitting. It's a collage of pictures that we have taken of all the amazing things that his hands can do: turning the pancakes over with the spatula, holding his brothers hands, playing with his cars, squirting the hose, playing games on the computer, etc. I am going to write "My hands are not for hitting" at the top of the poster and "My hands are for:" a little further down. I am going to let him paint and glitter and glue however he wants. We are all going to put our hand prints on the poster as a family and make a commitment to eacher that we will do the best we can to have gentle hands. I have no idea if it will work, but at least he will have a reminder hanging on his wall about his hands and hopefully it will sink in at some point...

[soybeansmama]

Originally Posted by A_Random_Phrase

It can be lonely, frustrating, and discouraging. We aren't there with you in person but a lot of us here are supporting you.

thankyou, dear mama...

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by ThreeBeans

I agree completely with this.

But didn't the friend of the OP suggest to the child she was thinking about hitting him? I think that's on a totally different plane than "You did something really awful and because of that I am very upset"

For a normal needs child - they don't go through a "hitting phase" at 4!!!!!

That's WAY too old to lash out like that. I watch a 4yo and 2yo twins in my house. I have seen the 2yos and my 18mo hit each other. But I would be FURIOUS is the 4yo did it. She is MUCH bigger and MUCH older. It is completely unacceptable for her hit toddlers.


I understand that you are upset that your friend threatened to spank your child. And it's reasonable that you are so upset. But it also sounds like you are making excuses for your child.

If a 4yo is hitting little kids - that needs to be STOPPED immediately. It's not something that should be 'worked on' but something that needs to be solved. You can work on an 18 month old who's hitting out of frustration. But a 4yo????

[loraxc]

I really agree with ramama and sledg here. My 4yo hits very rarely now, and I would be quite surprised if she hit an 18mo, but I can't guarantee that it wouldn't happen if she was hit first. I would of course be very apologetic and DD would probably be removed from the action or taken home, but I would be very upset if a friend treated her the way this woman treated the OP's kid.

I also really don't think that I would completely freak out if a 4yo hit my 18mo, unless there was actual injury or the hitting incident was very violent. Kids hit. It happens. An 18mo isn't really a "baby" to me either, but a toddler--it might be a different if a 4yo hit my infant (3mo).

[grniys]

First of all, I've never parented a 4 year old. My son is only a year old, so maybe my thoughts/ opinions will have changed in three more years. And I don't say this to be judgemental of anyone in any way.

I understand you're upset at the other mama. And I can see why. But I don't think she meant "I would spank you if you were my child" as a threat. Now before you all jump all over me, just listen. I don't think she meant it as a threat because she never intended to hit him. She wasn't saying she would in any way hit him. She was just telling him that is what the consequences are for HER child. It would have been a threat if she said "If you hit her again I'll spank you".

Should she have said it? No. But I really don't think it's something to destroy a friendship over. The point is she didn't hit him. And I doubt she ever intended to inflict any sort of bodily harm on him. She was just angry and wanted him to know it was a bad thing to do, he is not to do it again and that the punishment for her children is much more severe, so he should be happy he's not her child.

She sounds like she got very defensive over the email, and I can even understand that. It is so, so easy to take things the wrong way on email. When my dh is deployed I'll email him and say something teasing or joking, and he'll get mad until we talk on the phone and he's like "Oh... you weren't being serious. Duh!" and then everything is good again. Trying to solve problems through email is a very bad idea. You're not face to face, you can't lighten the tone, you simply have black & white words that can be taken in a million different ways.

She probably should have handled the situation more maturely, but I do think you're blowing it out of proportion. Your son was not hit, he learned it isn't good to hit so odds are he won't do that to the baby again. You're not letting her babysit anymore so I don't see it being an issue again.

But that's just my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, and I honestly didn't mean any of this offensively.

[soybeansmama]

Understanding is different than excusing a behavior...

So, what would you have done, KESSED? enlighten me...

and also explain to me how you solve something without working on it...

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by soybeansmama

Thanks for the replies...

SOOOOO, she just wrote back about what a "spineless, holier than thou" person I am and that I have hurt her deeply with my "condesecending, passive-aggresive"

Originally Posted by soybeansmama

I honestly have compassion for this mom. I believe her anger and her outburst was an expression of her frusteration with herself. I honestly believe she doesn't want to parent like this, but feels helpless and hopeless and out of ideas. I have been there many times. I am saddened that she has chosen to express herself in this way.

I honestly hope you didn't express the second quote in your email because that would explain her response.