S/O of a S/O Do you consider RIC sexual abuse? - Page 2

[mija y mijo]

Originally Posted by purplestraws

Honestly, I'm not sure how you could call it anything else?

If people were doing this to adults it would absolutely be considered sexual abuse. Just because an innocent baby doesn't have the words to say no, it's not?

I definitely see your point.

Originally Posted by anne1140

I definitely do think it is abuse, but I think it's different than, say, raping someone, because many parents who circ aren't doing it to specifically harm their kids. It's just all they know, and they don't really think about it. I'm not saying that's an excuse at all, but we need to get the truth out to people, so that they can have all the facts, and hopefully choose to not circ in the future.

I agree.

[treemom2]

Very interesting thread. Before reading the post, I did put in the poll that I do consider it sexual abuse. However, there have been some great posts that now have me second thinking my response. While I do think the child is being sexually abused, who is the sexual abuser? Is it the doctor performing this completely unnecessary act (especially because they know medically it isn't necessary)? I do know that I cannot be friends with a doc here I know who performs RIC as part of her duties here on the base even though her other views mesh with mine (other AP/NFL values) which is way hard to find here. Hmmm, things to think about. . .

[bluetoes]

It is most certainly child abuse, but I don't consider it sexual abuse. It is evil and horrible, but different because of the motives behind it.

[sunkissedmumma67]

WOW, I have 3 kids, 2 daughters and 1 son, my son is 19 and he was circumsized as a newborn, i had it done because everybody i knew had their sons circumsized. Honestly i didn't know much about it. I definetly don't think its sexual abuse, thats just crazy, yes in sexual abuse there has to be a person who is getting sexual gratification. No one is. I do think it is abuse. Though knowing what i know now, i would not circumsize. Its so painful for baby and serves no real purpose. I really don't understand why its so recconmened.

[aurora_skys]

Originally Posted by carriebft

Intentions cannot be understood nor felt by the child. While some medical procedures have therapeutic necessity and we have to deal with the evils that come with them...circumcision is not necessary. So...

The child is made naked.

The are strapped down in a spread eagle position with their genitals presented.

Pieces of their genitals are clamped and crushed....they are tied off or safety pinned...allowed to rot off or are cut or torn. Some accounts say that doctors stimulate an erection before the use of certain clamps, though I cannot say if this is true.

Then, as is the case with most circumcised boys in the USA, they are made to endure days, months, weeks, and sometimes even years of their caregivers manipulating their penis by push back the remaining foreskin and sometimes even applying barrier cream each time.


If it was a girl and there were no therapeutic reasons for doing such things, how would we view it?

Couldnt have said it any better. It absolutely is sexual abuse, just as fgm is sexual abuse. Sometimes I get really sad just knowing that most of the guys I know have had to endure this

For something to qualify as sexual abuse does not require that a person get sexual gratification from it. Its just abuse that is of a sexual nature ( in this case, physical abuse involving the genitals.)

[purslaine]

Sure it is sexual abuse....it is doing something to someones sexual organs without their consent. It is, at the core, about power...just like rape, etc.

Brief (true) story: when I had my first child a doctor swept my membranes without my consent (I though he was merely doing an internal). While I do not think he did it for sexual gratification - I still felt assaulted.

In the case of circ - it can affect later feelings and experiences of sexuality - it is robbing a child of his right to an intact sexual relationship...how is this not sexual assault???

[jeca]

I do not think it's sexual abuse. I am anti-circ my son is not and no man in my immediate family is(father, husband, brother, etc) but I'm not willing to label it sexual abuse flat out wrong yes.

[AntoninBeGonin]

Here is something to think about.

A) The ridged band and frenulum, two parts of the foreskin amputated during RIC are the most sensitive parts of the penis. Amputating them is equivilant to a woman losing her clitoris, which is the most sensitive part of the female genital anatomy.

B) The foreskin, especially in an infant, but often in adults, protects the urinary meatus from irritants in the same way the inner labia protects the meatus (and clitoris) of a girl.

I know it's hard for many people to accept how much RIC parallels FGM because our culture has ingrained in us that male circumcision doesn't affect boys like it does girls. Something to think about, though.

[thismama]

i would say yes,it is abusive.

[trmpetplaya]

Okay, to those (2 so far) who chose that they consider circumcision to be non-abusive *only* because it's legal:

I don't understand your position at all and I'm wondering why on earth you feel that the legal status of an action is what determines whether the action is abusive or not. Does that mean that you consider female circumcision to be non-abusive in the countries where it's legal as well?

love and peace.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by tanyam926

Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.

Have you read anything by the pedophile (I mean Clinical Professor in Pediatrics) Dr. Schoen? He writes poems about circumcision...I think he really gets off on it!

Noncircumcised males are the "genital chic"--
if your foreskin is gone, you are now up the creek.
It's a great work of art like the statue of Venus*,
if you're wearing a hat on the head of your penis.

...

When you gaze through a looking glass, don't think of Alice;
don't rue that you suffered a rape of your phallus.
Just hope that one day you can say with a smile
that your glans ain't passe; it will rise up in style.

Edgar J. Schoen, MD
Department of Pediatrics
Kaiser Permanente Medical Center

http://www.circumstitions.com/Schoens.html

I truly believe that there are a lot of Dr. and other circumcisors out there that really enjoy what they do. I'm not sure if it's a Phyco thing...It was done to me so I must do it to others...or if they are just incredibly demented.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by trmpetplaya

Okay, to those (2 so far) who chose that they consider circumcision to be non-abusive *only* because it's legal:

I don't understand your position at all and I'm wondering why on earth you feel that the legal status of an action is what determines whether the action is abusive or not. Does that mean that you consider female circumcision to be non-abusive in the countries where it's legal as well?

love and peace.

It used to be legal to beat your children...Your wife...I guess that wasn't abuse at the time. Did it become abuse only after the laws were changed? Or did it become abuse and they changed the laws?

[Magali]

I do, without question. Before ds was born I had no intention of circing him, but because it is unnecessary and painful. As I read more about circ I am filled with this horrible feeling every time I think about it. How could it be anything other than sexual abuse? It is mutilating a sexual part of the body.

[AXEius]

abuse on sex organs is sexual abuse, plain and simple. THE ABUSE TO THE VICTIM IS THE SAME NO MATTER WHAT THE ABUSER'S INTENTIONS ARE.

[CorasMama]

Originally Posted by carriebft

Intentions cannot be understood nor felt by the child.

You just changed my mind. I had voted the last option, but now I feel I'd vote the first. I was thinking that I'd only label it sexual abuse if it were done by parents who knew how wrong it was, but obviously you're right.

Many men feel absolutely violated by having been circumcised. One of the things I frequently use as an anti-circ argument is: Just because they can't conciously remember it as an adult doesn't mean it's okay to do to a child.

[SammyJr]

Originally Posted by tanyam926

Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

As a male, I definitely think circumcision is sexual assault. I certainly feel violated by the procedure and I don't know if I could control myself if I ever encountered the individual who assaulted me.

As far as sexual gratification felt by the circumcisor, I think it would be very enlightening to monitor the sexual arousal of the circumcisor while he's butchering the boy. I'll bet there'd be a lot of people having to list as sexual predators.

[Fyrestorm]

I feel very strongly about it! (as if any one who knows me doesn't already know that)

I feel so strongly about it that one of my 5 anti circ bumper stickers says:

"Sexual assault is not medicine" with circumcision crossed out in a circle.

I also have a sweatshirt that says:

"Circumcision is baby rape"

[Bm31]

Originally Posted by AXEius

abuse on sex organs is sexual abuse, plain and simple. THE ABUSE TO THE VICTIM IS THE SAME NO MATTER WHAT THE ABUSER'S INTENTIONS ARE.

:

And when parents are supposedly "informed" and have done their "research" and STILL go ahead with it, I consider it to be not only abuse, but sadistic as well. :

[Miranda2r14]

Originally Posted by tanyam926

Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.

Rape is not about sexual gratification at all actually. It's about control and power. The more I learn about RIC, the more I believe that yes, it is sexual abuse.

[carriebft]

To me, the child not being able to understand intentions is a big part; when put together with the nontherapeutic nature of the surgery, the actions done to the genitals, and the aftercare manipulation...that's what really gets it across the line for me.

But, like I said....this isn't something I talk about a lot because it creates a big wall.