The new Disfellowshipped JW Thread - coping with disfellowshipping - Page 2

[Valkyrie9]

Thanks, Jen. I think he must still be "in," as it's been a week and no word from him. That's okay, I guess. I mean, it looks like he's safe and well enough. I hope that he's happy, and I hope that seeing me didn't scare him or anything. Some folks seem to be terrified you're going to jump out and shake a big ol' apostate rattle at them or something. Trav was nice and I wish him the best.

[almadianna]

did you ever get a response from T?

i am just curious.

[Valkyrie9]

No, I didn't. Sigh... At least he was nice though, right? He didn't *not* acknowledge me.

I've been doing a huge amount of work with my counselor lately as a result of all the trauma I buried immediately after my DF-ing. Basically, I built this huge wall around my heart because I was so afraid of breaking down and sobbing over the loss of my niece and nephew, particularly. That loss has been manifesting in some really dreadful nightmares, and I know that it's my psyche trying to work through that.

How's everyone else?

[almadianna]

I recently found someone on facebook that is a witness and she added me as a friend, as I was glad to hear from her I added her back... I guess she found out shortly there after that I was no longer part of the organization and she took me off of her list...

It has been so many years and it is still so hard to deal with the rejection... this all happened when I was a teenager and honestly I now understand how hard it all was for me and how it messed me up so badly.

[Leta]

Hi... not a JW, never was, but had a good friend who was, and I have some questions.

If this is not the appropriate place to ask these questions, please tell me and I will edit. I do not want to cause this thread to be removed!

I was close friends in HS with a girl, J, who was and still is a Witness. Our HS English teacher attended the same Kingdom Hall as J's family. J's mom and my mom were very friendly, too.

J and I went to each other's houses, always paired up for school projects, had lots of friendly religious/ethical debates, etc. She dressed a certain way, and did not go to college despite being wicked smart, but I never pushed as to why, because I always chalked it up to her family being quite poor. (Myself and another friend actually quietly subsidized J going on a class trip with us, otherwise there was no way she would have been able to go- they were that poor.)

When I still lived in my hometown, she worked at my credit union, and we saw each other quite often.

Fast forward ten years. I was home for the holidays, and bumped into her mom. She mentioned that they all still attended the same Kingdom Hall, so I know J is still active. Her mom also mentioned that J and her husband have decided not to have kids. I found this a little surprising, as J and I used to have birth control debates in high school (me pro, J con). J's mom also told me how to get in touch with her.

So my questions are these: If I do get in touch with J, would that cause trouble for her or her mom? (And if so, why would her mom tell me to call her?) If I ask nosy personal questions about babymaking, would that be bad (ie, supposed to be kept private from elders)? If I were to encourage her to, say, go back to school- she really is so, so smart- would that be wrong? (This last one kind of baffles me, as you need higher ed to be a teacher, and our JW English teacher was very devout about teaching and being a JW.)

Thank you for any insight, FKR.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by FormerlyKnownAs

So my questions are these: If I do get in touch with J, would that cause trouble for her or her mom? (And if so, why would her mom tell me to call her?) If I ask nosy personal questions about babymaking, would that be bad (ie, supposed to be kept private from elders)? If I were to encourage her to, say, go back to school- she really is so, so smart- would that be wrong? (This last one kind of baffles me, as you need higher ed to be a teacher, and our JW English teacher was very devout about teaching and being a JW.)

Oh, I think you'd be totally fine to contact her. The thing we former Witnsses deal with is that there is kind of a no-contact dictate between current Witnesses and those who have left the religion for whatever reason. People who were never Witnesses are not bound by the same no-contact stuff. So no, it shouldn't cause any troubles for her.

I don't think you should worry about asking her about babymaking from a religious standpoint--if you guys were friends enough to discuss that before, it should be fine now. She might feel kind of awkward about being pushed to go back to school, since the JW leadership is very against that.

I'm guessing your teacher might have converted to the religion after attending college--that might explain the discrepancy.

HTH!

[jennica]

Originally Posted by FormerlyKnownAs

So my questions are these: If I do get in touch with J, would that cause trouble for her or her mom? (And if so, why would her mom tell me to call her?)

Nope, no trouble at all. Contact between JW's and non-never-before-been-a-JW are totally fine. A deeper relationship between them, however, is discouraged. You probably were close friends in high school, because the situation made it so you had to be together anyway. Now, she will probably not want to be your close friend, but also probably would not mind talking to you again, and she will likely be very friendly.

Originally Posted by FormerlyKnownAs

If I ask nosy personal questions about babymaking, would that be bad (ie, supposed to be kept private from elders)?

JW's are against abortifactants, or anything they deem to be so even if they aren't designed to work that way, like the mini pill, the IUD, the morning after pill. Other birth control methods, such as the pill, and barrier methods are a-okay. Sterilization is not okay, but some do it and just don't tell anyone about it. This may be an awkward conversation though, since her reasons for not wanting kids are probably that she is thinking soon armageddon will come and she will wait for the paradise to have kids. This indicates that she is a very devout JW, because most have kids anyway despite the recommendations not to, or, she just doesn't like kids.

Originally Posted by FormerlyKnownAs

If I were to encourage her to, say, go back to school- she really is so, so smart- would that be wrong? (This last one kind of baffles me, as you need higher ed to be a teacher, and our JW English teacher was very devout about teaching and being a JW.)

The teacher most likely went to college before becoming a JW, which explains that. You can encourage her to go back to college, but that may turn into an awkward conversation as well. They don't go to college because first, they believe armageddon is coming any day now, so why waste time and money. Second, they believe that higher education introduces them to dangerous ideas: philosophy and evolution specifically. It is true that most JW's that go to college leave the religion, so they are simply trying to maintain membership.

[Leta]

Thank you so much. I am just so blunt, I always have been, and since I've read much more about what it means to be a Witness, I've wondered about sticking my foot in my mouth, yk?

I guess when I was in HS, I never really realized the extent to which the JWs are a closed community.

[Valkyrie9]

FKA, I hope you don't worry too much about sticking your foot in it--you're coming from a position where you care about your friend and want to have a relationship with her. You're genuine and respectful of her beliefs (as evidenced by asking these questions before potentially offending), and I think that's as much as anyone can ask for. Good luck!

[CHoney]

JWs can go to college/university if they choose to. I know lots that have. It's almost impossible to get a good job if you don't, and I think they are balanced in that regard and usually get a diploma or degree so they can support their family.

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by CHoney

JWs can go to college/university if they choose to. I know lots that have. It's almost impossible to get a good job if you don't, and I think they are balanced in that regard and usually get a diploma or degree so they can support their family.

this must be a recent change, i was greatly discouraged to go to college and was told that "god would provide" and that it was a waste of my time to go to college since the end of times would come soon. that my time was better spent going door to door to inform others of god's word.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by almadianna

this must be a recent change, i was greatly discouraged to go to college and was told that "god would provide" and that it was a waste of my time to go to college since the end of times would come soon. that my time was better spent going door to door to inform others of god's word.

From what I understand, there was a change for a while there--people were being allowed to go to college because of the issues the past poster mentioned. (Job availability, etc.) Here in the last...what? year or two? there has been a reversal of that decision and college is strictly frowned upon.

I believe Jennica could clarify this a little, since she left the organization more recently than I did and would be more up on the timing and rules of that.

And now let's talk about me and my df-ing issues: I heard from my mom a few weeks ago (most of you know we have super-problematic dealings with each other resulting from my df-ing). She wanted to get together for coffee. I pondered her e-mail and responded with some details she's never had from me before--how scared I was as a child of Armageddon, how I felt like I couldn't make her happy unless I was a JW, etc. I told her about my counseling and how hard I'm working to undo some of the damage from my childhood, and then I said that I didn't think we could just get together unless I worked out a whole lot of stuff, but that I'd let her know if and when that happened.

So tonight I got an e-mail back from her with a few apologies, but they were totally qualified. As in, "I wish I had known you were so scared of the pictures in My Book of Bible Stories, but you never seemed to talk to me anyway because you were so close to your dad." That kind of thing--like there were all these other things that came into play long before she had to be accountable for anything. And then at the end she basically told me that I need to get over my childhood. Well, I'm trying. Part of that means I can't have her in my life right now, and I'm seeing that she's never going to *get it*--it'll always be justifications and qualifications.

Sigh...maybe I should have known better. Maybe I shouldn't even have responded to her at all.

[jennica]

Originally Posted by CHoney

JWs can go to college/university if they choose to. I know lots that have. It's almost impossible to get a good job if you don't, and I think they are balanced in that regard and usually get a diploma or degree so they can support their family.

Well, here is how it went down: In the 1990's, after decades of strictly forbidding any college, the JW's said it was okay to go to technical school for a year or two, as long as the goal was to get a specific job that one was being trained for and not just aimlessly pursing higher education. In the 2000's, the JW's started saying that it was only okay to go to technical school while pioneering (committing to preaching 70 hours a month) with the view that one could use their schooling to get a specific part-time job that would support them in their pioneer work. At no time has college or university in general been okay, only a technical or vocational school that trains a person in one to two years for a specific job. A four year or more degree was very much frowned upon and discouraged, and nobody did that. Lately, I've heard that they are getting more and more strict on this point and that any college is once again discouraged. I don't have confirmation on that yet though, but as far as I know things were headed that way, so it wouldn't be too surprising if they said any college was a no no again.

[jennica]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

And now let's talk about me and my df-ing issues: I heard from my mom a few weeks ago (most of you know we have super-problematic dealings with each other resulting from my df-ing). She wanted to get together for coffee. I pondered her e-mail and responded with some details she's never had from me before--how scared I was as a child of Armageddon, how I felt like I couldn't make her happy unless I was a JW, etc. I told her about my counseling and how hard I'm working to undo some of the damage from my childhood, and then I said that I didn't think we could just get together unless I worked out a whole lot of stuff, but that I'd let her know if and when that happened.

So tonight I got an e-mail back from her with a few apologies, but they were totally qualified. As in, "I wish I had known you were so scared of the pictures in My Book of Bible Stories, but you never seemed to talk to me anyway because you were so close to your dad." That kind of thing--like there were all these other things that came into play long before she had to be accountable for anything. And then at the end she basically told me that I need to get over my childhood. Well, I'm trying. Part of that means I can't have her in my life right now, and I'm seeing that she's never going to *get it*--it'll always be justifications and qualifications.

Sigh...maybe I should have known better. Maybe I shouldn't even have responded to her at all.

How did it make you feel to tell her those things? It doesn't really matter how she responds, because you know that the response is not coming from her, it matters that she heard what you have to say.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by jennica

How did it make you feel to tell her those things? It doesn't really matter how she responds, because you know that the response is not coming from her, it matters that she heard what you have to say.

Well, it felt like a good idea to tell her about the damage. In the past, I had always been probably far more respectful than I needed to--I wouldn't say anything at all to her that might cause her to question her faith. I felt/feel like she needs her faith a lot more than she needs her daughter, so I just kept it to myself. But that's not caused her to have any more respect for me and for my experience, so I decided to try spelling it all out. I feel like I was able to show *my* identity by telling her those things--I wasn't subsuming it in her interests. So that was good.

You're right. My words and feelings can leave me for my own good, but what she does with them is out of my control. I need to try to apply that to her words and see if there's any healing or truth to them, but really just let them be words she felt she needed to speak. They do not get instant sway over me just for having been said by my mother.

Thanks, Jennifer.

[jennica]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

You're right. My words and feelings can leave me for my own good, but what she does with them is out of my control. I need to try to apply that to her words and see if there's any healing or truth to them, but really just let them be words she felt she needed to speak. They do not get instant sway over me just for having been said by my mother.

Thanks, Jennifer.

And remember, she is shunning you. That means that you get to be angry, and call her decisions into question, even if it means that she wont like what you have to say. Even if it means that it will leave her unsettled in her faith. You get to try to have some closure, you get to say what you need to, and then to accept what she says, or to move on without her. These are things you need to say, and things she needs to hear. You can't get too tied up in how she responds though, because she has to respond within a very narrow framework, which leaves her quite limited in what she can say and how she can say it. The important thing is that you said it, and she heard it, and no matter how she tries to justify it to herself or to you, on some level she heard what your issues where with her and she knows that these are things she needs to address in the future if she wants to have a richer relationship with you.

[Ellien C]

Just want to give you another hug! Your story is so moving - I'm so sad for you and so in awe of how well you are working things out.
You sound so stable and so mature and so healthy. You are a really remarkable woman!


: (no heat in this room at this hour!)

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by Ellien C

Just want to give you another hug! Your story is so moving - I'm so sad for you and so in awe of how well you are working things out.
You sound so stable and so mature and so healthy. You are a really remarkable woman!


: (no heat in this room at this hour!)

Oh! Thank you... I'm glad you say that because sometimes it really doesn't feel that way. This last year I have put an enormous amount of effort into getting into a good place with this situation (mentally & emotionally) and it's like every time I feel like I've got one thread tightened up, another one breaks elsewhere. But I know I'm plugging along and will come out the other side of it a much better, happier person.

Thanks for the support, and I hope you warmed up! Spring is on its way.