Feeling guilty about telling DS I don't want to play

[LuckyMommaToo]

DS is a classic extrovert, but recently he's gotten WAY better about doing things by himself. I swear, in the first three years of his life, he never did anything alone for more than five minutes.

His favorite thing to do is to play with all his superhero figures. He's always asking me to play it with him. I really dislike this particular game (violence, his rigid rules, etc.), but since it's obviously so important to him, I feel bad always telling him no.

I'm happy to play a game, do a puzzle, or other things. Do I try to play heroes for ten minutes a day or something? Or do I really just not play them ever?

I've always been a momma who plays, but recent threads here have made me rethink a little. Particularly the idea that I should do it if I enjoy it (like games and puzzles), but not if it feels like agony (playing the enemy in the hero scenario). ANy thoughts?
thanks,
-e

[Embee]

A disclaimer: this is coming from someone who truly believes that "Playful Parenting" (ala L Cohen) is tantamount to engaging and nurturing our child's attachment to us, creating a relationship with them (Hold on to your Kids, Neufeld). Not just doing the things that we prefer to do with them, but going out of our way sometimes, even doing those things we don't particularly like which sends a strong message about how much we care. I know sometimes my DH asks me to help him with this or that and I don't really want to do it, but of course I do because he needs my help and I love him and want to be there for him. Pretend play is a very meaningful (and powerful!) way for us to be there for our children.

A game, a puzzle, these can be great fun together (we do them often ) but what I can tell you is that when I don't regularly engage in pretend play with my DS, our attachment wanes and our relationship suffers. When I do take the time however, I learn so much about where DS is at. I learn about things he's working through and in being there, playing along, I'm available to help him work through those issues. In particular, if DS and I have been out of sorts with each other (i.e., I've been distracted, busy and grumpy ), plopping down with him and following his lead is the single best way I know to reconnect and heal our relationship. It connects us in such a profound way, that no matter how difficult it is to get up for, I will keep doing it because for us, it's so very important. And usually, once I truly engage, it's easier. Sometimes it's just the getting there that's difficult. If I do my best to lose my frustration over it, I can see into the games and why they have meaning for him and how my playing along with him can help him learn, heal and move on. DS sometimes amazes me with where he takes his play. As Naomi Aldort says, "children are like little psychologists!" And I believe it because I've experienced it time and time again. Beautiful.

Sometimes if I'm mentally struggling to make the time, I tell DS that I have 20 minutes at this certain time a day and this is the time that he gets to lead me, be in charge, be the king, boss me around! Oh, how he loves this! When he gets this time with me, it pays off for him and for me. He is almost always willing to work with me on my terms when I need him too. This is the give and take of our relationship and I cherish it. By using the time limit, I can more easily initiate playtime. Often, I play longer and if at all possible, without him having to ask. DS SOOO appreciates this. It is always time well spent.

On a selfish note, I find that the amount of time I spend playing with DS in this way--when he's in charge and has my full attention--is in direct proportion to the time he's willing to spend playing on his own (i.e., he gets what he needs, the cup being filled if you will, and then is able to function happily on his own for a time).

If it helps, make a special time each day, or every other if that's better. Twenty or thirty minutes. One thing I've found that helps is to back it up to something that will help DS transition when I'm ready to move on; a meal, a program, a special activity, an outting, etc. Aside from helping me stick with it, another thing I've found about making the playtime "official" is that DS is no longer spending as much energy in trying to get me to play. He knows he can count on me for that special time, and this helps him to let go of the "obsessive need" that I unwittingly created by putting off his requests or by giving him the impression that I'm not available for that.

At the end of the day, this is really about joining DS in his world. Showing my love for him in a way that he needs me to rather than the way I'd like to. There is so much about his life and that of most children that is about joining us in our world; our homes, schedules, jobs, appointments, errands, the list goes on and on. By making time to join him in his world, it just seems well, appropriate and kind. It is entirely helpful to DS's emotional growth and well-being this parent play time. He makes this undeniably clear in a variety of ways. Not the least of which is just how connected we feel and wonderfully we communicate when he's getting that special time a regular basis.

My .02 for what it's worth.

The best,
Em

[boatbaby]

sometimes my DS goes through phases where he wants to play knights and get bad guys and so on. But I am deeply against violent play myself, and it just totally goes against my nature and our values. At the same time, I don't want to forbid it because I get that this is a normal, healthy thin for him.
So when he gets in that mode and wants me to be involved I just say very matter of fact -- "I am not interested in that kind of game, I don't like playing games where people/etc get hurt." Then I offer an alternative... "You can play that game without me for a few minutes, or we can try to rescue the dragon, build a castle, (insert anything fun but not aggressive and mean)"
That way the choice is his whether having me get involved is more important at that moment of the mode of play he's in is the thing of the moment. depending on his mood, it goes both ways. I sword fight with him every now and again making it clear we're just playing, no bad guys. And I tell him we can go battle monsters together hiding in closets and such. And we play ALL sorts of other imaginative role playing games together, but I feel for OUR family it's important that I am 100% clear about how we feel about violence.

[Embee]

Originally Posted by boatbaby

but I feel for OUR family it's important that I am 100% clear about how we feel about violence.

It's a funny thing. In our family (where our feelings on violence are the very same), we've actually had better luck in getting this message across by engaging in the games. I suppose because we feel that if DS brings something up, it's a meaningful play theme for him, something that is rambling around in his mind. We trust that if he's bringing certain ideas to us, they are something his mind is telling him to work (play) through. By choosing us as his partners for this kind of play, he is basically saying, "I trust you to help me work this through." Playing alone can be fun but if it's something the child truly needs to work through, he may not have the information or emotional tools to do so. By choosing a parent, even putting the parent on the bad guy/other side of the play, they are choosing someone they know they can trust to go where he needs them to, and therefore work through the mixed feelings that violent play themes can often create. And where playing out such themes with other children can be fun, other children will often just keep upping the ante for their own need. A parent, OTOH can show that they are willing to engage but also keep their child's needs in mind.... following the lead of the child as it were.

The thing is, when DS first brought something like this up, I was shocked and a little horrified. But by taking a stance where I would not engage, I was actually sending the message to him that his feelings and impulses were not ok. And yet, there they were in him. For him I basically said, the games you want to play are not ok (i.e., YOU are not okay). Of course, I didn't mean this in the least but that meant little considering that that was not the message that got across to DS.

DH has really helped me on this one. He is caring, thoughtful and a true pacifist. However, as a child, his favorite toy was his holster and pistols. He even wore them to church! DH regularly engages with DS in good/evil games. He was the first to simulate a drawn out (and very silly) death scene when DS stabbed him in the heart with his toy sword. By engaging with DS, he is a mature play partner, one capable of guiding DS toward the limits of violent play and by adding a bit of over the top theatrics, he helps DS put the theme of play in perspective, takes the sting out the more complex feelings that come along with it. A giggle is just the thing.

Precisely because we are willing to engage, it has given us excellent credibility in discussing our feelings about violence. DS is given the opportunity to satisfy his need to play on the matter and also be willing to be guided by us as to why in "real life" violence is not a game we play but a sad and yet, very real and all too common part of many people's lives. It has given way to many meaningful conversations over the years. When at first when we (mostly me) simply tried to shut down the play, I actually fueled his need for it. Now that we regularly engage, the need is met and DS's need for it waxes and wanes and on the whole, he is open to explore all sorts of play themes most of which are of the more pacifist pose.

But like I said before, just my .02 for whatever that's worth. I'm no expert and would never claim to be. I do suppose it's rather transparent just how important this subject is to our family, and how much we've learned from it. That said, I don't assume that all families operate in the same way or need to. It's just that for us, this is what is most helpful.

The best,
Em

[boatbaby]

Originally Posted by Embee

It's a funny thing. In our family (where our feelings on violence are the very same), we've actually had better luck in getting this message across by engaging in the games. I suppose because we feel that if DS brings something up, it's a meaningful play theme for him, something that is rambling around in his mind. We trust that if he's bringing certain ideas to us, they are something his mind is telling him to work (play) through. By choosing us as his partners for this kind of play, he is basically saying, "I trust you to help me work this through." Playing with other kids or alone can be fun and perhaps somewhat helpful, but by choosing a parent, even putting the parent on the bad guy/other side of the play, they are choosing someone they know they can trust to go where he needs them to, and therefore work through the mixed feelings that violent play themes can often create. Where other children will often just keep upping the ante for their own need, a parent can show that they are willing to engage but also keep the child's needs in mind.... following the lead of the child as it were.

The thing is, when DS first brought something like this up, I was shocked and a little horrified. But by taking a stance where I would not engage, I was actually sending the message to him that his feelings and impulses were not ok. And yet, there they were in him. For him I basically said, the games you want to play are not ok (i.e., YOU are not okay). Of course, I didn't mean this in the least but that meant little considering that that was not the message that got across to DS.

DH has really helped me on this one. He is caring, thoughtful and a true pacifist. However, as a child, his favorite toy was his holster and pistols. He even wore them to church! DH regularly engages with DS in good/evil games. He was the first to simulate a drawn out (and very silly) death scene when DS stabbed him in the heart with his toy sword. By engaging with DS, he is a mature play partner, one capable of guiding DS toward the limits of of violent play and also adding a bit of over the top theatrics that help DS put the theme of play in perspective and also take the sting out the more complex feelings that come along with it.

Precisely because we are willing to engage, it has given us excellent credibility in discussing our feelings about violence. DS is given he opportunity to satisfy his need to play on the matter and also be willing to be guided by us as to why in "real life" violence is not a game we play but a sad and yet, very real and all too common part of many people's lives. It has given way to many meaningful conversations over the years. When at first when we (mostly me) simply tried to shut down the play, I actually fueled his need for it. Now that we regularly engage, the need is met and DS's need for it waxes and wanes and on the whole, he is open to explore all sorts of play themes most of which are of the more pacifist pose.

But like I said before, just my .02 for whatever that's worth. I'm no expert and would never claim to be however, I guess it's rather transparent just how important this subject is to our family, and how much we've learned from it. That said, I don't assume that all families operate the in the same way or need to. It's just that for us, this is what is most helpful.

The best,
Em

I really respect and agree with everything you say here... I have a question. What happens when your DS then goes out and starts these games with other kids. Or play shooting at school/ playground/ etc? Do you let it happen? Do you say that's ok for home but not with others? Do you tell him to ask the other kid if it's ok first? I feel like if I condone it at home (again not forbidding it) then he will go out and shoot up everyone he meets, ykwim?

[Embee]

Great question...

I've found that because the need is satisfied at home, DS doesn't feel the need to randomly engage others or go up and start a violent theme of play with someone with whom he is not attached. I strongly believe because DS has had some experience with it at home, he better knows where and when this type of play is appropriate.

OTOH, I've also found that in the right atmosphere, groups of otherwise pacifist kids will engage in violent play themes for fun. I generally don't need to get involved and even when things step slightly out of hand, I'll give the kids the first chance to work through the limits together and they usually do so, beautifully. These games tend to happen at someone's home, with a parent present. I don't think this is a coincidence. Trust and security being top priorities for most kids. I've never had the experience of DS engaging someone in any other place such as a playground. It's clear that the only other kids DS wishes to engage in this with are those who are well known to him and those with whom he feels safe.

We were at the playground a year or so ago and some kids were playing a cops/robbers type of game and tried to get DS involved. He stepped in for a time but because he didn't know them well, he was not comfortable and decided to disengage from their game in favor of climbing about. OTOH, the kids playing seemed perfectly comfortable with each other and clearly knew each other well, a couple of family friends I believe. The play wasn't much different from the way DS plays with his friends except for the fact that he didn't know them... this spoke volumes to me. DS knows that this kind of play is best kept for those he knows and trusts.

I believe that precisely because DS (and several of this friends) have had the benefit of parent play and guiding in violent themes, they better know--have internalized the limits if you will--when to say when. The play comes to a halt when someone is hurt and the rules are re-established. Also, if there are kids involved that everyone knows to be more sensitive, there are rules established to protect them.

I remember the first time the kids starting hollering about the house with sticks and such and I must have held my breath for an hour, hoping it was ok. I like to trust kids to play what they need and want to play but it wasn't easy. Since, they've shown me just how great they can be about it and I've had to intervene very little. And often when I do, I'm assured that they are stopping and working things out. It's lovely. Truly.

There have been times now and again when things have gone too far. Maybe this kids are tired and emotions start to run amock, or it's been awhile since they've eaten... mostly, it tends to happen with kids whom I know don't usually play this kind of game (with a parent or otherwise). Like I mentioned in my post, these are the kids who will keep upping the ante because they haven't had the benefit of parent assisted play. They are attracted to the play but are unable to understand and respect the limits. At least not a first. Nothing like a group of kids though to make sure that everyone knows and respects the rules!

We have some fellow homeschooling friends on our block. Between the kids the ages range from 7 up to 11. I find that groups of kids of varying ages can really be great. The younger ones sometimes might go too far and the olders ones tend to be more mentor-like and set the play back right. Although sometimes it's just the opposite, the olders forget to respect that others are smaller, but the smaller ones have big voices with which to remind them. DS will always speak up if someone has gone too far and I find that that's true for most kids who engage in the play.

The violent play themes are not a constant theme with DS and his friends although lighter variations of them are. They usually end up somewhere else once they've gotten it out of their systems. Last night they started there, went to a more sedate game of hide and seek and then to making a big nature scene in the front yard. :

This has been my experience at any rate.

The best,
Em

[Embee]

Ok, I walked away from the computer and realized... that I believe I've hyjacked this thread.

My sincere apologies.

Em :

[LuckyMommaToo]

believe I've hyjacked this thread.

No worries! I just wish I had a moment to type a coherent reply to you guys. Embee, I think you're right, and I've been thrown off by people who say "I just don't play." I, personally, DO think play is important, and I like your idea of twenty minutes where he gets to dictate the play.

And I also find the discussion of violent play interesting. DS is right there witht the guns and shooting. (And I also have a DH who was *obsessed* with guns as kid; apparently his favorite book was Jane's Weapons -- a nonfiction guide to all guns.) DS's preschool teacher said an interesting thing to me. I tend to always have the bad guys end up nice (they bring pizza to share, etc). And she said, "DS is figuring this out. It's black and white to him, and he needs it to be." But she was more eloquent! ANyway, it's made me rethink.

So I will decide what my time limitations are and try to wholeheartedly engage for that time.

My time is up!
thanks,
-e

[Embee]

Originally Posted by LuckyMommaToo

Embee, I think you're right, and I've been thrown off by people who say "I just don't play." I, personally, DO think play is important, and I like your idea of twenty minutes where he gets to dictate the play.

I sensed this in your post and that is why I felt comfortable rolling with it. I'm glad my instincts were right. "whew!" Indeed, the time limit is simply a mental trick I play on myself so that I resolve what I know is important even when I don't feel like it, but hey, it works! And usually I relax once engaged with DS.

Originally Posted by LuckyMommaToo

And I also find the discussion of violent play interesting. DS is right there witht the guns and shooting. (And I also have a DH who was *obsessed* with guns as kid; apparently his favorite book was Jane's Weapons -- a nonfiction guide to all guns.) DS's preschool teacher said an interesting thing to me. I tend to always have the bad guys end up nice (they bring pizza to share, etc). And she said, "DS is figuring this out. It's black and white to him, and he needs it to be." But she was more eloquent! ANyway, it's made me rethink.

Yes, the black and white thing is significant for children isn't it? Early on they do very much "need it to be." Excellent observation. As DS has gotten older (he's 7 1/2 now), this black and white thing has really evolved. Like I mentioned in my second post, our play has given way to many meaningful discussions where we talk about what makes people act the way they do say when someone is mean or aggressive. DS is beginning to see that mean people are not just mean. That they are people who do not feel good on the inside, that mean usually comes from pain as DS himself has experienced. If they don't feel right, they don't act right and so on. It's been wonderful to see him embracing this way of thinking but early on, developmentally speaking, this was a hard concept to grasp. Lately however, we discuss the "gray" areas an awful lot.

Originally Posted by LuckyMommaToo

So I will decide what my time limitations are and try to wholeheartedly engage for that time.

Balance is good. We wouldn't want to be playing with our children when they can clearly see that our heart is not in it... I've done the begrudging time and it's hard on us both. Sometimes it helps to say, "I've got some things I'd like to take care of today that are important to me. Time with you is very important to me. Let's see if we can come up with a way for me to get some things done so that my mind is free to play for a spell..." I find that when I am just really honest with DS, he has great ability to understand. Particularly when he knows that time will be made for him for some special play. Overtime, he's come to realize that when I'm not worried about getting other things done, I can be a more active play partner. Of course, this also means he's catching on to the fact that his mother has OCD. This morning he even offered to help me with chores so we could go upstairs and play!

The best to you mama!

Em

[alexsam]

Personally, I don't believe we as parents always need to be "playmate" as well. I am not saying we should never play with our kids or that us playing with them is not important, but I don't think we should feel guilty when we don't play a particular game with them or need to do other things. I think all too often, we feel we need to "entertain" our kids or that doing our adult things or nurturing our own interests is somehow neglectful. Like with any loved person, you find your mutual interests and enjoy them together and with things that the other doesn't really click with, you respect it and support it but don't always need to participate (though occasionally is nice). My husband will play boardgames with DS for HOURS. It makes me crazy. Instead, DS and I will go places together. And then there are some things we all enjoy together, like gardening. Sometimes we have interests that we share with others, some of our things are individual. That's just life.

Don't feel guilty. You son will get to know YOU and your interests as a "real person" as compared to "mother" and come to negotiate ways that he can play on his own sometimes and with you others.

It is OK to say "10 more minutes of 'Wiggles' then mommy's turn with the radio for a while". It is OK to say "Tonight, mommy and daddy are choosing the resteraunt". IT is OK to say "You have a million toys! Go find something to do with yourself!" when a kid says "I'm bored". There is lots of creativity that happens when children are forced to entertain themselves! And it is OK to say "You know? Superheros aren't my thing. I'll play for 10 minutes, then if you want to play something we both like, we can keep playing together. If not, that's cool, but I'm going to do something else for a while..."

[mistymama]

I personally would not do it everyday. But yes, sometimes I will make myself get down and play superheros, even though I don't enjoy it at all. But honestly, it's not all that often.

I prefer to do things with my son we can both enjoy ... so often I'll suggest he help me with dinner (he loves to chop veggies) or if we have time we'll run down to the pool and swim together. I find things we can play/do that I enjoy as well.

Like today, we are going to the water park together and spending the entire day. So tomorrow when I have work to do from home and can't play with him .. I honestly wont feel bad. As long as we have plenty of one on one time and he gets my attention and love, I don't feel bad for expecting him to play superheroes by himself, or with a friend that lives nearby.

[woaters]

Count me in....I could have written much of what is on this thread. DS has a whole scenario with his playmobil that involves the girls doing all the work and the boys laying around the house. While it was funny at first, after months of it, I am spent (not that this is all he plays, just his fave)
But the guilt is huge. B/C he is an only child, I have extra guilt attached to that.
and the same as you mammas, I am happy to do a puzzle, game or crafts, but he isnt as keen.

Glad to know I am not alone.

Regarding guns......I had a funny experience tonight, we live in a townhouse complex and we ventured to the other row where we found 6-7 boys from age 3-12 all playing with guns and swords and my instinct was to leave. The whole scene made me uncomfortable
So, one of the little ones took a sword to the face and went crying home. DS starts telling these kids how bad they are for playing with guns and guns are bad etc.....thankfully no parents heard him as I shirked out of there.
Guess the message has got through to him, but not exactly the way I wanted.
DS understands weapons can hit other weapons but not people, but we do not own any. There has to be a balance.......I am a little lost on the whole weapon thing...and unfortunatly DS now sees it as black and white. Kids that play with guns are bad and that is not the message I want to give him.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

My DD is very similar. There are some games I just don't like playing with her.

Embee, your posts were extremely helpful. Thanks for helping me to remember what play means to our children.

[Ks Mama]

Originally Posted by alexsam

Personally, I don't believe we as parents always need to be "playmate" as well. I am not saying we should never play with our kids or that us playing with them is not important, but I don't think we should feel guilty when we don't play a particular game with them or need to do other things. I think all too often, we feel we need to "entertain" our kids or that doing our adult things or nurturing our own interests is somehow neglectful. Like with any loved person, you find your mutual interests and enjoy them together and with things that the other doesn't really click with, you respect it and support it but don't always need to participate (though occasionally is nice). My husband will play boardgames with DS for HOURS. It makes me crazy. Instead, DS and I will go places together. And then there are some things we all enjoy together, like gardening. Sometimes we have interests that we share with others, some of our things are individual. That's just life.

Don't feel guilty. You son will get to know YOU and your interests as a "real person" as compared to "mother" and come to negotiate ways that he can play on his own sometimes and with you others.

It is OK to say "10 more minutes of 'Wiggles' then mommy's turn with the radio for a while". It is OK to say "Tonight, mommy and daddy are choosing the resteraunt". IT is OK to say "You have a million toys! Go find something to do with yourself!" when a kid says "I'm bored". There is lots of creativity that happens when children are forced to entertain themselves! And it is OK to say "You know? Superheros aren't my thing. I'll play for 10 minutes, then if you want to play something we both like, we can keep playing together. If not, that's cool, but I'm going to do something else for a while..."

I so completely agree with your post. I just don't even have anything to add. You're spot on.