UPDATE: nursing at my niece's b-day party

[elizaMM]

I found the responses to my original post fascinating (see "I've been uninvited to my niece's birthday party for refusing to cover up". Please tell me and apologies in advance if starting a new thread is out of line.) Clever and thoughtful suggestions abounded. Puddle is a genius.

I was surprised that several people recommended we "never go back" or "never speak to them again". That's shockingly immature and a great way to contribute to the misery in the world, our own included.

If anybody can give me the exact bible quote about seeing breastfeeding as impure I would be eternally greatful. I did find something about seeing pure things as impure, but it doesn't refer to breastfeeding specifically.

DH is supportive, but I don't think he would have any better arguments than I. I'm not sure my niece would miss us at the party. Her mother has (related?) issues that preclude frequent interaction.

I've been thinking a lot about this drama in my life; questioning my convictions, examining priorities.

The biggest problem is, I understand my BIL's problem. He sees breasts as sexual because that's all they've ever been to him. What do we do about that. Can I really ask him to retrain his brain? Is that do-able?

I still have some time before the party.

Here is my recent email to BIL:

I'm sorry, I was a little curt(sp?) in my last response. I was pretty angry. I have been thinking a lot about this, BIL, and i would like to figure out a way to work this out. I'm not sure its possible, but I'd like to try. I don't think using a blanket is a compromise: for one thing, its what you asked for (OR going into another room), so you aren't giving anything. For another, its just not practical. I need to be able to see what DS is doing, I can explain to you why if you'd like to know. I think we should have a conversation about this. I like you, I like that we get along, I don't think any of us need any more conflict in our lives. I think it was really thoughtful of you and your DW to decide not to pray at our house. I don't think its necessary (for you to stop), I am not offended by you praying, although i do sometimes wonder if you think we SHOULD be praying with you. Now I'm sure you don't. Its commendable that you thought about that. I want with all my heart to be a compassionate, respectful, tolerant, forgiving, open-minded human. So maybe, if you can, you could start thinking about having a conversation about this, and possible compromises. At this point, I can't imagine being comfortable breastfeeding in your HOUSE after all this. But I imagine the party being on a lovely summer day and breastfeeding outside. I do understand (I think) that, to you, breasts are sexual organs. And I would feel uncomfortable looking at my brother-in-law's sexual organ too (cringe!!!).
Let me know what you think,
SIL

[Limabean1975]

You are incredibly level-headed. I hope to hear an update soon that your BIL responded in kind.

[mamalisa]

You are a better woman than I could ever be. My response would not have been so kind or gentle. Good for you

[ramama]

I am assuming that you are in search of biblical arguments in favor of breastfeeding because your BIL is religious? Sorry if I'm dense, but it's rather late here! Anyway, I happened to have on hand several biblical quotes that I compiled (from a google search) for a paper I did recently. I am wary of Bible quotes taken out of context, but I am not Christian, am not Bible-savy, and do not have a Bible in which to look up the quotes and confirm the context. That said, there they are: (sorry, none of them are the pure/impure ones that you were looking for, but perhaps of interest anyway!)

Even wild beasts offer the breast, they give suck to their young ones; the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness. The tongue of the suckling cleaveth to its palate by reason of thirst: babes ask for bread, there is not one to break it for them.
—Lamentations IV, 3

“For you will nurse and be satisfied at her comforting breasts; you will drink deeply and delight in her overflowing abundance.” For this is what the LORD says: “I will extend peace to her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees. As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem.”
Isaiah 66:11-13 NIV

Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.
Isaiah 49:15,16 NIV

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand into the viper’s nest.
Isaiah 11:8 KJV

And here are some which are not quotes from the Bible, but are instead Christian discourse on breastfeeding. I found them interesting and persuasive:

“If God Almighty came to you and said, “I myself have designed a special food that will strengthen your baby’s body and develop his brain, which will comfort him and cheer his heart, and lay the foundation for his lifetime health and well-being. I have given this food into your keeping; I have placed it in your body; it is my loving provision for your child” - who would reply, “No thanks, no divine gifts, I’d rather give him a can of Similac”?”
Juli Loesch Wiley

“. . .the Lord does not in vain prepare nutriment for children in their mothers’ bosoms, before they are born. But those on whom he confers the honor of mothers, he, in this way, constitutes nurses; and they who deem it a hardship to nourish their own offspring, break, as far as they are able, the sacred bond of nature. If disease, or anything of that kind, is the hindrance, they have a just excuse; but for mothers voluntarily, and for their own pleasure, to avoid the trouble of nursing, and thus to make themselves only half-mothers, is a shameful corruption.”
John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 21:7

[gilamama]

i read your post and i am glad you did not decide to "never go back there" or something like that.

just wanted to point out those quotes speak abt how bfing is the ultimate in health and how denying a child the breast is cruel but not abt how modest a mother should be when bfing.

is your BIL against your bfing or he just does not want to see you bf? from what i remmeber he feels like it is a private bodily function. i personally dont ever expose myself bfing to men other than my dh. women yes but modesty is an important value to me so not men. it seems like you understand him not wanting to see your breasts. could you turn around to lach on and then turn back to the group to nurse? my sil nurses very modestly in public but i was never able to, my kids like to hold my other breast so....

i understand that you BIL's comments were offensive, but why is going in the other room such a big deal? for me bfing is a very intimate experience and i find it more appropriate for my relationsip with my kids to do it alone in a place where i can focus on them.

i dont want to offent, so i hope i am not.

maybea compromise would be for you to bf modestly in his house (what ever that means to him) and for him to learn abt how bf is really awesome and the best?

[nummies]

Sounds good, but I think by comparing even tolerating the comparison of your breasts to his penis is a little strange. I don't think that is the way that I would go about educating someone. But to each their own. Best of luck! You are far more restrained than I.

[KristyDi]

Well written e-mail.

I agree that deciding in a huff to never visit or speak to family because of something like this is immature and IMO actually hurts the cause of lactivisim.

Here is a link to lots of BF references in the Bible, some may be repeats from above, I didn't check. The bottom of the page also has links that may help.

I'm looking up the pure/impure verse. I'm pretty sure it's not directly referring to BF though. I'll be back when I find it.

ETA: I'm pretty sure the verse you were looking for is Titus 1:15

To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

Quick and dirty the argument is that if you look through impure eyes, then breastfeeding is gross and sexual. If you look with pure eyes then you see nothing wrong. Combine that with breastfeeding as God' perfect plan for nourishing our children and it's a pretty strong argument.

ETA again: I was looking through the verses on that link I gave you and found this.
Joel 2:15-16

Blow the trumpet in Zion, declare a holy fast, call a sacred assembly. Gather the people, consecrate the assembly; bring together the elders, gather the children, those nursing at the breast. Let the bridegroom leave his room and the bride her chamber.

Sounds like NIP to me.

ETA, yet again. I keep thinking of new stuff.

You said. . .

The biggest problem is, I understand my BIL's problem. He sees breasts as sexual because that's all they've ever been to him. What do we do about that. Can I really ask him to retrain his brain? Is that do-able?

As a Christian we are constantly asked to *"be transformed by the renewing of our minds" So yes he can and should be open to re-training his brain.

*Romans 12:2

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

The world sees breasts a purely sexual. Obviously from the verses above God designed breasts for feeding children as well as sexual purposes (Song of Solomon shows that breasts can also be sexual). So he (your BIL) should resist conforming to the pattern of the world by considering breasts purely sexual, but be transformed by the renewing of his mind to see breasts as God sees them.

(I feel the compelled to point out, even though it's not the point of this post, that this transforming is not something done in the Christian's own power, but a work of God in the Christian.)

[elizaMM]

Originally Posted by nummies

I think by comparing even tolerating the comparison of your breasts to his penis is a little strange. I don't think that is the way that I would go about educating someone.

I agree, breasts are not naturally sexual. But to me it is understandable that in our culture (BIL's and mine, if not yours) breasts are depicted as sexual constantly, and it is human nature to have one's perspective altered by culture. I am an incredibly rational person and I still am not comfortable going topless, even if it were legal. Are YOU able to separate yourself completely from any culture of breasts-as-sexual? If so, I'd love to hear more!

GILAMAMA, if you like, check my first post for some answers to your questions/comments.

Thanks all for the biblical references.

[elanorh]

When you talk to your BIL about this next, in addition to all the above information which will hopefully be helpful -

I think sometimes this "get thee to a different room!" sort of response to NIP also comes from a complete lack of experience/understanding of how breastfeeding works.

I think it's important that you explain that to BIL.

A. Breastmilk is the preferred food for infants; it's what every medical and health group recommends (for 1-2 years of life minimum). It reduces X, Y, Z, etc. etc. (you know that drill).

B. Breastmilk is digested more quickly and easily than formula. The best way to breastfeed without compromising mother's supply, is to nurse when baby wants to nurse - which is often every couple hours (or less, especially if baby is ill, teething, or having a growth spurt) at least for the first six months, and sometimes longer than that. This is normal, natural, and the way babies were designed.

So, BIL, imagine spending 1-2 years (minimum) breastfeeding a child. Nursing 8-12 times a day for the first year at least (and possibly longer). Imagine how disruptive (and in fact, impossible) it would be to visit friends and family, if you had to always go to another room to nurse your baby. Imagine putting a blanket over his own dd's head when she was 6 months, 12 months, 18 months old and trying to eat - how would she react to that?

In the end, this is about feeding your child. That comes ahead of any perverse hang-ups that adults around you may have. Keep working on helping him realize this.

(Incidentally, depending on his faith, some religions have specific recommendations to breastfeed - i.e., Pope John Paul II had a statement on breastfeeding. However, and I am making assumptions here, it sounds to me like your BIL isn't Catholic).

ETA:

Originally Posted by elizaMM

I agree, breasts are not naturally sexual. But to me it is understandable that in our culture (BIL's and mine, if not yours) breasts are depicted as sexual constantly, and it is human nature to have one's perspective altered by culture. I am an incredibly rational person and I still am not comfortable going topless, even if it were legal. Are YOU able to separate yourself completely from any culture of breasts-as-sexual? If so, I'd love to hear more!

Well - mouths and lips are treated as very sexual in our culture, too. Yet we can reconcile ourselves to the fact that lips which just kissed a dh, can also eat a pb&j without that being a sexual act.

We kiss our kids, our relatives, and there's nothing sexual about that. But when we kiss our partners, it becomes sexual (well, sometimes it's just a peck ).

I think for many of us, breasts are both sexual/sexy, and also for feeding our children. DH can see them in both lights; so can I. It's a question of reframing and being rational about it. I use my breasts 8-10 times/day to nurse my child. They're used far less frequently for sexual things. When the "food" use so greatly outnumbers the "sexxxxxy" use, then I think that helps in reframing it.

I do think for some it ends up needing to be a very conscious decision to think that way, to override the cultural pressure. I grew up in a ranching family which breastfeeds, so I'd always seen breasts as multifunctional. I know that not everyone is blessed to grow up in such an environment - where humans and animals all nurse their young. But it IS the default biologically, it's what we were intended to do (by God or Nature). And it's sad that we can become so twisted as a society that we instead sexually objectify breasts so much.

From a feminist perspective, what does it say, that one of the most powerful things about womanhood (the ability to nourish our young) has instead been twisted in our culture to make *that* usage wrong and dirty, but celebrates the appropriation of breasts as sexual property of men instead?

[tanyam926]

I felt the need to clarify since in an earlier post I said that if my family told me they were not comfortable w/me BF in thier house, I would not feel welcome there and I wouldn't go back until I did feel welcome there.

For me it is like if I was in an interracial marriage and my family did not like it. I would not apologize for making them feel uncomfortable and then not bring my dh to functions w/my family.

It also seems that apologizing for doing something that is so right when it makes others feel uncomfortable is not furthering lactivism.

If I was told to put a blanket over my baby's head while out in public I would be offended, just as if I were at my g-ma's house. Yes, it is thier house, so they should decide if you are welcome or not.

I am not saying anyone should be mean, snarky, or unreasonable, and of course everyone needs to keep peace w/thier families.

Comparing BF to seeing family member's genitals though, not even close.

I applaud the OP for doing what is best for her though. It is sad that we have to compromise w/anyone when we are doing the best we possibly can for our children.

Good luck!

[MommytoTwo]

You could send him this fantastic article:

http://www.theologyofthebody.com/03-16-07.asp

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by KristyDi

Well written e-mail.

I agree that deciding in a huff to never visit or speak to family because of something like this is immature and IMO actually hurts the cause of lactivisim.

:sigh: Why is it assumed to be in a huff? I know I did not mean not to visit under any circumstances, only those which the offender could presume to direct my behavior, as in their own home. They are welcome to visit my home. If they are particularly hostile, well why would you continue to speak with them?

[KristyDi]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

:sigh: Why is it assumed to be in a huff? I know I did not mean not to visit under any circumstances, only those which the offender could presume to direct my behavior, as in their own home. They are welcome to visit my home. If they are particularly hostile, well why would you continue to speak with them?

I'm not assuming that everyone who made such a comment was in a huff. But many of those who responded certainly seemed very huffy and used words like "never" in relation to seeing or speaking with the offending BIL.

[kikidee]

I think that was a great email, and as someone who has gone through family conflicts before, I know how much harder it is to keep trying to patch things up and to not just shut the offending parties out of your life. So kudos to you - I think you are being very mature by keeping the lines of communication open, and trying to see your BIL's side. Well done.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by elizaMM

If anybody can give me the exact bible quote about seeing breastfeeding as impure I would be eternally greatful. I did find something about seeing pure things as impure, but it doesn't refer to breastfeeding specifically.

Does it matter? The point is that it's your BIL's fault for being a pervert that makes him bothered by breastfeeding.

Honestly, the reason you got so many harsh suggestions in the other thread is that the language of the email would've been offensive if he'd been asking you not to have sex on his dining room table during dinner and all you were doing was feeding your baby.

[Arduinna]

I think you hurt your case by comparing BFing to seeing your BIL genitals. It's not even comparable. And he needs to know that. Instead his messed up ideas were inadvertantly supported. He needs to understand that your baby is eating. Period. Your baby is not having sex or taking a crap (which is what he equated it to in his email).

He needs to educate himself not have his messed up ideas supported.

[Unoppressed MAMA Q]

I think it all comes down to how much you like the offender when dealing with these situations.

I can think of all kinds of people, whose lactophobia only helps confirm my lack of desire to be with them. If someone I truly loved and valued had this set of bizarre misconceptions, I would do my best to educate, not abandon.

[go0ber]

i think that the email is way too wordy and you should cut to the chase instead of beating around the bush. you made mention of having a conversation a few times in the email. say it once. also try to consolidate the stuff about the praying in your house because it is really muddled. also i don't even think the praying shit compares because it's something HE decided to stop without you ever having asked. so yeah take that out too because its irrelevant.

Originally Posted by nummies

Sounds good, but I think by comparing even tolerating the comparison of your breasts to his penis is a little strange.

its more than a little strange. it's downright shameful. it reinforces BIL's belief that breasts are indeed sexual. what was the point in even saying the last bit? you should take that out COMPLETELY. honestly you are being way too apologetic to this guy and you have no reason to be. he is the one grossed out by breasts being used properly. that pretty much makes him a woman hater i think.

if i wrote the letter it would read like this:

dear bil,
i am sorry we both got hot headed about the breastfeeding issue. it was never my intention to offend you in your home. i really enjoy the relationship that we have and don't want it to end because of this. it does frustrate me that you see breasts as only sexual playthings instead of for what they were intended for: feeding and nurturing a baby. i was not trying to make a political statement by not putting a blanket over dd. the reason for that is because i have to see her and what she is doing otherwise she doesn't feed properly. i would like to continue this discussion in person as e-mails tend to come out wrong at times.

love,
sil

[elizaMM]

Originally Posted by elanorh

Well - mouths and lips are treated as very sexual in our culture, too. Yet we can reconcile ourselves to the fact that lips which just kissed a dh, can also eat a pb&j without that being a sexual act.

That's a REALLY good point. So, the only difference is that we cover our breasts and not our lips.

All who think my concession that I would be uncomfortable with his exposure of sexual organs: Would you be comfortable going around topless? (It would promote acceptance of breastfeeding.) I wouldn't. Would you be comfortable with me going around topless? I don't think I would mind if you did.

TamYam(?) I agree, I think if it were an interracial marriage issue I wouldn't go back if they would accept my DH.

For the record, I did'nt apologize for b'feeding in front of him. I did say "I'm sorry you were uncomfortable." but NOT "I'm sorry I made you uncomfortable". Because I am not responsible for his feelings; I didn't make him uncomfortable, society and upbringing and he himself did.

Thanks all for your feedback. Its really helpful to talk through this.

~M

[ramama]

I don't think that toplessness has anything to do with breastfeeding. Just as public viewing of girl-on-girl porn would do nothing to promote the rights of same-sex couples. It just doesn't equate. At least to me.

I also think it's important to note that cultures in which breasts are viewed as sexual objects are not the norm. Our culture is abnormal, and your BIL's reaction was extremely abnormal. His comments do not indicate being "uncomfortable." He was disgusted by BFing. And that's a whole different thing, IMO. If you think that something can be worked out with him, more power to you! I admire your determination.