My kids have "other" parents and they wont quit spanking them.

[LionessMom]

i have been coming to MDC for a while now and keep reading the stuff in the gd forum here. this is what my DH was always saying since he and i got together 4.5 yrs ago. i totally agree hence the gd hand in my sig.
a little background: DS is mine from a previous marriage. his father never comes around. DSD1 and DSD2 is his from a previous relationship. when DSD2 was 3 months old the DNA test showed he fathered DSD2 but not DSD1. so DSD2's father has visitation. DSD's mom has visits. DH and I have custody. DD is ours together.
DSD1&2 always go together everywhere. they both go to their mom's and they both go to DSD1's dad's house. everybody loves them both. CPS is who gave us custody as DSD's mom was always drunk and passed out while they were doing whatever wherever with whoever. i am glad they are here.
the question: when they go over to DSD1's dad's house he uses spankings as punishment for everything. wet their pants, dont wipe the bm off good enough, everything. it is highly effective for him. they never misbehave at his house. as a matter of fact they are scared to tell him anything. sometimes they want to go and sometimes they dont. when they come back they act like they dont have to listen because we wont spank them. DH has only done it 2-3 times in their whole life and regrets it. how do we get them to listen when they come back from DSD1's dad's house? will this transition problem last forever? we have asked our CPS worker to talk to him about it and says she will but says that she cant make him stop unless it becomes CPS defined child abuse.
Sorry this is so long but i need some advice. i am going crazy trying to get these kids to get over it.
i posted this here b/c i need advice with parenting dcs.

[LionessMom]

lots of lookies but no replies. not sure what to think about that.
i think i figured it out though. ill keep praying that he will figure it out and keep complaining to the social worker about it until he stops. and i will make sure to have all my work donr before they get home and give them all of my attention and find something for us to do together like playing with play doh. i think they are feeling like they are free when they come back so they are bouncing and feeling aggressive and they want to express all the stuff they felt afraid to express over there. play doh is great for working out aggression. and also let them know that they have a place where they are free to express themselves and give them lots of hugs.
insight needed please.

[Momtwice]

I would suggest clicking on the edit button and posting a stronger title, such as "dsd's dad spanks her frequently, cps says it is not abuse"

Or

"Dsd's dad spanks her frequently, what can i do"

Good luck.

[LionessMom]

Originally Posted by Momtwice

I would suggest clicking on the edit button and posting a stronger title, such as "dsd's dad spanks her frequently, cps says it is not abuse"

Or

"Dsd's dad spanks her frequently, what can i do"

Good luck.

it wont let me edit my title.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Ugh -- what a difficult situation. Unfortunately, CPS is being pretty clear that they can't do anything to really help. And getting him to stop seems very unlikely, given that it "works" for him. So I guess that leaves figuring out a way to control what happens in your house.

First, it seems like the kids are old enough to talk about the situation with. Do they have suggestions? Do they understand how difficult the transition is? Can you lay out that the homes are different but they are old enough to deal with that and behave in both situations?

I think you are right that you need to have a definite transition plan to make sure they get attention and and ease back into your household. A transition ritual which lets them center and work out aggression and frustration is a great idea.

I don't know, but it seems like he is spanking over things that aren't "discipline" needs at all -- like poor bathroom habits. If this is consistant, can you help them with specific skills to minimize that sort of issue? Are there things you can do to eliminate some of his frustration points? Not that this is your "job" per se, but just to lessen the impact on the girls?

[DevaMajka]

That is rough! I'm sorry you are dealing with this.
I imagine that you don't have a lot of responses because people just don't have good advice.

The only thing I can think of is just to be there to reconnect with your dsd's when they come home. Set clear boundaries, and let them know that while dsd's dad does things one way, that you do things another way. It doesn't mean that you don't have boundaries, it just means that you think it's best to relate to them in your own way.

[stickywicket67]

OP-
disclaimer.
my son is 8 months old and i have no other children. so take what i say with a big grain.

(i didn't want to leave you hanging out there with barely a response)


first, if you haven't already, you and dh should read How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk. i love this book and i think it is very simple and easy- not a lot of fluff. then come up with a GD game plan together.

second, sit down with the older kids including your son and tell them exactly what you plan to do as far as discipline. from now on they are responsible for x, y and z and explain consequences and responsibility. it'll be hard, i'm sure, but as young as they are they've already been through some pretty difficult experiences. i would think with that would come a little bit of maturity.

third, is it possible for you guys to talk directly to DSD's father about it? explain that now the kids are 5 and 6 ( that's right, isn't it?) the family is working on ways to make the older kids more responsible for their own behaviors rather than using external means to control them like spanking. are they in school yet? they aren't going to get spanked at school so hey let's get them ready now. it's a stretch but...

fourth, what the pp said about transitions and helping them to avoid situations where they may get spanked. and OP continuing to do what you posted about letting them work out their aggression, loving them more than hating the misbehavior, and talking talking talking to them about how you feel about spanking.

good luck. it sounds like a really stressful situation.

ps: if you want to edit your thread title go to advanced edit button.

[Ruthla]

You can also edit the title by going to the Gentle Discipline page, and when you see this thread title listed, right click next to the title. Clicking ON the title opens up the thread, but clicking next to it lets you change the thread title (and only works for threads you've started.)

I suggest documenting everything he does, every time the kids come back upset and having trouble. It may come in handy if you ever find yourselves in court with him again. I'd also take the girls to counseling- it may help them adjust to this situation, plus it's another "expert opinion" to stand up for you in court. Even if CPS won't step in, the therapist might recomend a change in visitation schedule if she thinks it would be in the girls' best interests.

[LionessMom]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

First, it seems like the kids are old enough to talk about the situation with. Do they have suggestions? Do they understand how difficult the transition is? Can you lay out that the homes are different but they are old enough to deal with that and behave in both situations?
I don't know, but it seems like he is spanking over things that aren't "discipline" needs at all -- like poor bathroom habits. If this is consistant, can you help them with specific skills to minimize that sort of issue? Are there things you can do to eliminate some of his frustration points? Not that this is your "job" per se, but just to lessen the impact on the girls?

yeah they understand. it still hurts their feelings and they feel oppressed over there. they wipe just fine here (we have flushable wet wipes) but over there they dont feel like they can ask for help or admit they need it.

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

I imagine that you don't have a lot of responses because people just don't have good advice.

The only thing I can think of is just to be there to reconnect with your dsd's when they come home. Set clear boundaries, and let them know that while dsd's dad does things one way, that you do things another way. It doesn't mean that you don't have boundaries, it just means that you think it's best to relate to them in your own way.

it is a hard thing to comment on. i debated over whether to put it here or step-parenting. i felt the issue was more on how to help the kids b/c i cant really do anything about him except complain to CPS (which i do everytime i talk to them and they said the family counselor will talk to him).

Originally Posted by stickywicket67

first, if you haven't already, you and dh should read How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk. i love this book and i think it is very simple and easy- not a lot of fluff. then come up with a GD game plan together.

i will def check out that book!

Originally Posted by Ruthla

You can also edit the title by going to the Gentle Discipline page, and when you see this thread title listed, right click next to the title. Clicking ON the title opens up the thread, but clicking next to it lets you change the thread title (and only works for threads you've started.)

I suggest documenting everything he does, every time the kids come back upset and having trouble. It may come in handy if you ever find yourselves in court with him again. I'd also take the girls to counseling- it may help them adjust to this situation, plus it's another "expert opinion" to stand up for you in court. Even if CPS won't step in, the therapist might recomend a change in visitation schedule if she thinks it would be in the girls' best interests.

i tried the edit thing but not figuring it out. i will keep trying.
document document document.. yes why didnt i think about doing that. so simple. we did that when their mom was doing harmful stuff but just didnt think about it here. i will start writing down whe they go and what they say when they come back. DSDs did tell the CPS worker about some of it when she asked about their visits. apparently he also makes DSD1 eat tomatoes even though she thinks they are gross. not as bad as the spanking/intimidation thing but still.. come on. is he trying to break her spirit or what.
at least we got good news yesterday. CPS is thinking that they are going to stay here permanently. i am so happy.

thanks evrybody for helping me feel better about what i have been doing and giving me great advice and what i should or could be doing

[LynnS6]

Wow, that's a tough situation. Let's hope that CPS sees the light and they get a lot less time with DSD1's dad.

I think it might help to set aside time for reconnection when they come back from the other father's house. If they're feeling connected, they're more likely to follow your rules. And I expect that when they come back, they're feeling quite disconnected because the other father isn't doing anything to promote connection, just fear.

Remember too that the fact that they are 'acting out' at your house is a most likely a good sign. It means that they feel comfortable and safe enough with your family that they don't have to be 'good' all the time. They don't act out elsewhere because they don't feel safe.

I would also recommend two other books to look at:
1. Playful Parenting - it's a longer read, but it's a great book.
2. The Challenging Child -- this book is intended for parents of children who are 'challenging' (ADHD, possible autism spectrum, other issues), but I really like the "plan" that they set out for connecting, communicating and problem solving.

[weliveintheforest]

I just want to clarify - dsd1's dad is spanking them both, right? Can you tell him he has to stop spanking because dsd2 is not his child and he does not have permission to do that? Or something along those lines?

[Pookietooth]

Document and also ask them to tell you everything and every time it happens when they get home. I am sure there is probably verbal abuse happening at the same time -- have them tell you that too to add to it, because most people I know who were abused say that the emotional/verbal abuse was always worse than the physical, because it was about control and breaking the spirit. He really should not have visitation with them.

How do they misbehave with you?

[IlluminatedAttic]

If I understand this correctly then the man in question has no custody rights to dsd2, true? In this case he is just in the 'family friend' or 'uncle' type category and I would stop sending her for visits immediately as it is your responsibility to keep her safe. This act might get his attention and CPS attention as a serious situation. I realize this will make it more difficult for dsd1 and some may disagree with this idea, it is a horrible choice to make but personally I can't see sacrificing one to make the other more comfortable in a "misery loves company" sort of situation.

Also, does he really want custody/visitation or is he requiring it in retaliation for you or the mother seeking child support? If it is the latter then perhaps you can drop the financial requirement in return for him limiting or ending his visitation.

Not the ideal situation, but it is what it is and it sounds like you are trying to do the best you can for the kids.

[Mama2Bug]

Originally Posted by ZFooFoo

If I understand this correctly then the man in question has no custody rights to dsd2, true? In this case he is just in the 'family friend' or 'uncle' type category and I would stop sending her for visits immediately as it is your responsibility to keep her safe.

:

[LionessMom]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

1. Playful Parenting 2. The Challenging Child

i will check those out. i am sure the books will help. i will show them to the CPS worker who comes over as well.

Originally Posted by weliveintheforest

I just want to clarify - dsd1's dad is spanking them both, right? Can you tell him he has to stop spanking because dsd2 is not his child and he does not have permission to do that? Or something along those lines?

im going to have DH say something b/c DSD2 is his bio kid. plus i am more comfortable having him do it since i am just SM.

Originally Posted by Pookietooth

Document and also ask them to tell you everything and every time it happens when they get home. I am sure there is probably verbal abuse happening at the same time -- have them tell you that too to add to it, because most people I know who were abused say that the emotional/verbal abuse was always worse than the physical, because it was about control and breaking the spirit. He really should not have visitation with them.

How do they misbehave with you?

good point. i have heard him make racial remarks etc so he might be yelling and threatening.

Originally Posted by ZFooFoo

If I understand this correctly then the man in question has no custody rights to dsd2, true? In this case he is just in the 'family friend' or 'uncle' type category and I would stop sending her for visits immediately as it is your responsibility to keep her safe. This act might get his attention and CPS attention as a serious situation. I realize this will make it more difficult for dsd1 and some may disagree with this idea, it is a horrible choice to make but personally I can't see sacrificing one to make the other more comfortable in a "misery loves company" sort of situation.

Also, does he really want custody/visitation or is he requiring it in retaliation for you or the mother seeking child support? If it is the latter then perhaps you can drop the financial requirement in return for him limiting or ending his visitation.

Not the ideal situation, but it is what it is and it sounds like you are trying to do the best you can for the kids.

the only thing about not sending DSD2 would be like throwing DSD1 to the wolves and DSD2 would feel guilty she cant protect her sis. plus his house is where DSD1 was molested by DSD1's dad's girlfriend's oldest daughter. DSD1 went to a therapist to make sure she wouldnt let th 12 yr old do it again. if i send her over by herself her sis cant help protect her. DSD2 didnt let the girl do it to her. and DSD1 gave the girl permission to do what happened. i dont want them going over there at all and have told CPS but legally CPS has custody they just live her. and yes it does sound like he wants custody so he doesnt have to pay CS. i told CPS i dont want his CS and we dont get any from any parent. his exact words were "i shouldnt have to pay CS for a kid i can take care of myself".
i am very frustrated that this is going to go nowhere with him. both Bio mom and i agree that we dont want them over there. thank goodness for DSD1's dad's grilfriend.. she sticks up for them and has told him he is too harsh. she reccomended counseling for him as well.

[eiblyn]

How are they going over there with unsupervised visits if one of the children was molested there? Couldn't you press for supervised visits because of it?

[Vancouver Mommy]

I'm wondering how your relationship is with the other father. If your communication is good, perhaps you could talk directly to him. I don't think anybody really wants to spank a child - do you think it's possible he just doesn't know of a better way to discipline them? I have found in the past that I revert (by default) to the approaches that my parents used. It's only been through reading and talking to other parents that I've been able to find concrete examples of how to discipline gently. Best case scenario would be an open conversation between you, your dp and the other dad during which you share your techniques for dealing with particular behaviours in a way that didn't make him feel judged or defensive. It's a tall order, I know, and it would depend entirely on his willingness to listen, learn and change.

[LionessMom]

Originally Posted by eiblyn

How are they going over there with unsupervised visits if one of the children was molested there? Couldn't you press for supervised visits because of it?

he is supposed to make sure they are not alone with the other girls. he was having supervised but let him change it after a while. they are not allowed to spend the night.

Originally Posted by Vancouver Mommy

I'm wondering how your relationship is with the other father. If your communication is good, perhaps you could talk directly to him. I don't think anybody really wants to spank a child - do you think it's possible he just doesn't know of a better way to discipline them? I have found in the past that I revert (by default) to the approaches that my parents used. It's only been through reading and talking to other parents that I've been able to find concrete examples of how to discipline gently. Best case scenario would be an open conversation between you, your dp and the other dad during which you share your techniques for dealing with particular behaviours in a way that didn't make him feel judged or defensive. It's a tall order, I know, and it would depend entirely on his willingness to listen, learn and change.

its called a family team meeting and he refused to go. right now the only thing i can do is complain to CPS.
they are going over their today. i will write everything down and ask them about it when they get home and tell CPS everything. he wont listen to me so i will ask DH to talk to him. he doesnt care what i have to say b/c i am not a bio parent of them.

[want2bmoms]

Um, since it sounds like you are doing kinship care, I might suggest that you move, or crosspost this in the adoptive/foster parenting forum, becuase the FP's over there might have some useful ideas and understand the state side of the situation. Also, are you a legal interveinor in the case? then you have more footing in court. You can file the papers to become one with the court reporter, I think (I don't remember, your FDS/foster home caseworker should be able to help you out here.) but it's not guaranteed until a certain amount of time has passed - in CO, 90 days of having the children in your placement... then again if DH is alread a party to the case...
Advocate for a CASA for the kids, they can get to know everone involved, they are not a "part" of the system, but a volunteeer for the kids (if that makes any sense) and they do their own investigation and look at the best interests of the children, plus, they because the children's "buddy" and take them out to do fun things so that they can get to know the kids really well. (Plus respite care for you!)
When you are documenting be sure you don't lead the children. If CPS gets the idea that you are planting things, all will go to HIAHB (H3ll in a hand basket)... you always have to at least give the impression that your goal is still reunification... even if you are trying to figure out how to run away and never be found...
s I see that this is hard on you. i wish there was more that I could say that would be helpful.

[LionessMom]

thanks want2bmoms. i will look into that. CPS did say that they were most likely going to stay with us.
how do i move the thread so i can get more response. i know this is a difficult topic but it makes me feel better about the struggle just being able to share and getting some advice.