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Israeli warplanes strike far within Syria - Page 2

post #21 of 41
Quote:
Israel must return to the so-called Green Line -- the border before the 1967 Six Day War.[snip] The more Israel expands or retains settlements, the more it gets stuck in a quagmire where the enemy is everywhere.
Isn't that exactly where they were in 1967? Isn't that exactly what precipitated the Six Day War? Why should they give back land if no one will make any promise of peace? I certainly wouldn't. "Let us move our borders closer to you, please. It is sometimes difficult to attack you from so far away." :
post #22 of 41
Quote:
Isn't that exactly where they were in 1967? Isn't that exactly what precipitated the Six Day War? Why should they give back land if no one will make any promise of peace? I certainly wouldn't. "Let us move our borders closer to you, please.
I think he was suggesting that Israel give up the settlements - after all according to the UN Israel is not allowed to build or settle that land.

IMO it is the settlements that are at the heart of this issue - even within Israel.
post #23 of 41
From Haaretz:

Quote:
Labor legislator and former party leader Amram
Mitzna, who as an IDF general openly broke with then-defense minister Sharon over the conduct of the Lebanon war in the early 1980s, on Tuesday picked up the theme of the Syria strike
as diversion.

"This government is simply irresponsible, endangering its own citizens with - there is no other way to describe this - adventures. What was the point of attacking Syria? Who can even
explain the goal? Was the goal to calm down the Israeli public? To divert the public's attention from our day-to-day problems here and the government's inability to deal with terrorism?"
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...1&contrassID=2
post #24 of 41

Marlena and Marg-wonderful responses
post #25 of 41
Israel has the right to defend herself. How long would Americans sit by and watch homicidal terrorists continuously attack American civilians without a military response?

Syria is a well-known supporter of terrorists I have no trouble sleeping at night because of what Israel did.

Debra Baker
post #26 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Israel has the right to defend herself. How long would Americans sit by and watch homicidal terrorists continuously attack American civilians without a military response?
An eye for an eye leaves us with a blind world, right? How 'bout altering the conditions of the game, so the Palestinians can live their lives with some semblance of dignity, liberty and prosperity? If you do that, you'll likely see far fewer folks interested in becoming suicide bombers.

Oh, but that would be "capitulating to the terrorists." I get it now. So why not, then, just bomb them off the face of the earth? After all, there can't possibly be any other way of dealing with the issue and retaining one's dominant status, right?

Let's take an analogy (a very limited one, mind you, but still...) I take it that one rears one's children, runs one's business, etc., by completely disregarding the wishes of your children, employees, etc. and ramroding them into accepting one's will. It tends to make for a very happy group of people, who have no reason to be disgruntled, or feel abused, or what have you, right? Oh wait - that's NOT been your experience? Hmm...why might taking away all possibility of anything but the most subjugated existence that a group of people under one's power might have make them angry, or plunge them into dispair? Hmmm......
post #27 of 41
Quote:
Syria is a well-known supporter of terrorists I have no trouble sleeping at night because of what Israel did.

Debra,
Everyone in the world who is aware of this should be worried. Israel's actions have been incredibly aggressive and dangerous. Why can't you see the big picture?? Don't you get it??:

PRE-EMPTIVE ATTACKS LEAD TO MORE TERRORISM, WAR AND DEAD PEOPLE!!!!!

The war in Iraq was a lie!!! There are no WMD's there!! Pre-emptively striking Iraq has not made the world a safer place!!!! We have created more hatred and more terrorists. We have many more enemies than before!! Israel is doing the same. It will lead them to more deaths of their own people, it will not help them find a way to live in the region peacefully.....That is the goal isn't it?????
post #28 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by DebraBaker
Israel has the right to defend herself. How long would Americans sit by and watch homicidal terrorists continuously attack American civilians without a military response?

Syria is a well-known supporter of terrorists I have no trouble sleeping at night because of what Israel did.

Debra Baker
This is all true, BUT... if you were living in Israel, a strike on Syria, pre-emptive, post-emptive, whatever, would not make you sleep better at night. Especially if you were the mother of a young man of the age to go into the army.

The problem with threads like these is that they get into a discussion of what Israel has the right to do, or whether the folks Israel is striking really are connected to terror. But to me, the question feels far more personal. I just don't want to see any more Israelis get killed. I don't think this strike was good for Israel. Maybe it made some people feel better after the horrible suicide bombing at the Maxim restaurant in Haifa (where my cousins live) to know that the government was doing something. But me, I'm filled with dread.
post #29 of 41
Good point! Captain!!





http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...l_palestinians


Quote:
JERUSALEM - Israel dispatched troop reinforcements to the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites) on Wednesday and weighed a call-up of reserves, citing new warnings about planned attacks by Palestinian militants.
post #30 of 41
See, I *do* believe the Palestinians have a right to their own land but I think they are being pawns as much as everyone else.

Arafat (major example) has no real interest in a Palestine because he derives his power from the victim status of the Palestinian people. Isreal is not totally innocent, either.

They did, however, offer the Palestinians a signifigant fraction (I believe in the 90 percent) of what they wanted...Arafat *rejected* this offer and we had the second Infatada(sorry for any bad spelling)

Both sides need to give. Israel needs to give back the land that it won fair and square in war and the Palestinians need to stop blowing up Israeli civilians.

Meddling outsiders (like Syria and Iran) need to butt out.

IMHO (I understand that and a dollar is worth a cup of coffee) Arafat needs to go and some *moderate* needs to represent Palestine.

If Israel gets rid of some terrorists I'm not shedding any tears....there are enough innocent Israeli and Palestinians who deserve our grief.

Debra Baker
post #31 of 41
The most important point here is that people are being killed everyday - not just when the corporate media sensationlizes the suicide bombings. Or to put for you mildly - a Palestinain is killed everyday (but perhaps they don't count to us Americans).

Here is an excellent link about how much Israel costs the US:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

I have hard time with that but I assume that most conservatives feel it's okay to keep supporting what has become a quagmire for both Israelis and the US.
post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by DebraBaker
Meddling outsiders (like Syria and Iran) need to butt out.
Many in the world would include the US in that statement.
post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by 3boys4us
The most important point here is that people are being killed everyday - not just when the corporate media sensationlizes the suicide bombings. Or to put for you mildly - a Palestinain is killed everyday (but perhaps they don't count to us Americans).

Here is an excellent link about how much Israel costs the US:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

I have hard time with that but I assume that most conservatives feel it's okay to keep supporting what has become a quagmire for both Israelis and the US.
I hardly think you can "sensationalize" a suicide bombing--it's an inherently horrifying act. Why else would people do it? That's why they call it "terrorism"--it's not that acts of terror have to kill or injure a large number of people, it's just that it has to be something that most people would find frightening or repugnant, like blowing yourself up and taking civilians and children with you. It's got to be visible and sensational, because that's the point.

I find the word "sensationalize" upsetting here because you make it sound like you are only horrified by the deaths on one side, which to me is one of the biggest problems with talking about the whole question. There just aren't enough people who take casualties seriously no matter what their nationality. The Left seems to only take the Palestinian casualties seriously, the Right, only the Israeli casualties.

The institutionalized violence of the occupation isn't only invisible to people in the US, it's also invisible to the occupiers. It's paradoxically legal. It's retaliatory. We all should see it for what it is: state violence. But I think in a lot of ways, the tactic of terror is responsible for making the daily harrassment and disenfranchisement invisible.

In a lot of ways, the Palestinian terrorists bolster repressive policies of the Israeli government--well, you could say the same thing about how terror has bolstered the current US gov't. If one side would stop, the other side couldn't keep going. You know? Support for Sharon's policies grows whenever there is a suicide bombing or other act of terror, support for Arafat on the Palestinian side was dwindling until Israel began this absurd campaign against him.

Anyway, all of that is to say, don't say "sensationalized" about media coverage of the suicide bombings.
post #34 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by captain optimism
In a lot of ways, the Palestinian terrorists bolster repressive policies of the Israeli government--well, you could say the same thing about how terror has bolstered the current US gov't. If one side would stop, the other side couldn't keep going. You know? Support for Sharon's policies grows whenever there is a suicide bombing or other act of terror, support for Arafat on the Palestinian side was dwindling until Israel began this absurd campaign against him.
YES YES YES!!! Thank you for pointing all this out so succinctly!!
post #35 of 41
Quote:
I find the word "sensationalize" upsetting here because you make it sound like you are only horrified by the deaths on one side, which to me is one of the biggest problems with talking about the whole question.
co- I don't agree - look at our corporate media - where are the Palestinian deaths? IMO the media plays the suicide bombings as if they came from nowhere - as if the bomber had no past except for his/her intent to kill Isrealis. That's wrong. In our local paper (and many other papers) we get very little about how and why the bomber chose this route. And why not?

OTH no side is right. I have often wondered where the Palestinian Gandhi/MLK is.
post #36 of 41
I think you were misunderstood, 3boys4us.....I didn't take your post to mean that. I thought you were referring to the one-sided coverage. Now I can see how it was misunderstood...But, I guess I know you better from our long history here
post #37 of 41
I think a better way to express it would be to call Palestinian deaths under-reported. Though to me, it seems easier, in the US press, to learn about the motivations of individual suicide bombers than about the daily lives of most Palestinians. (Or for that matter, what public opinion is in Israel.) So perhaps it is better to say that it is Palestinian lives that are under-reported.

I had more to say here but I edited myself. It feels too off topic. What the Palestinians are or aren't doing is, unfortunately, not at all germane to Sharon's decision to bomb in Syria. Or at least, that's what his opposition is arguing in Ha'aretz today.
post #38 of 41
"OTH no side is right. I have often wondered where the Palestinian Gandhi/MLK is"

IMHO, he hasn't been permitted to emerge because there are forces who gain power and control through the continued existance of Palestinians as refugees *and* the violence.

When (and I hope there is a when and not an if) this happens I believe people could be given a chance to travel down a path toward peaceful co-existance.

I know I'm in the minority in this forum but understand I hold no hate toward the Palestinian side I think they are just as much victim as Israeli civilians.

Debra Baker
post #39 of 41
Quote:
But, I guess I know you better from our long history here
aaawww - thanks Marg

Quote:
I think a better way to express it would be to call Palestinian deaths under-reported. Though to me, it seems easier, in the US press, to learn about the motivations of individual suicide bombers than about the daily lives of most Palestinians. (Or for that matter, what public opinion is in Israel.) So perhaps it is better to say that it is Palestinian lives that are under-reported.
This will help clarify what I mean -

Quote:
During this six-week period of "relative quiet," however, some 17 Palestinians were killed and at least 59 injured by Israeli occupation soldiers and settlers, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society. The dead included Mahmoud Kabaha, a four-year-old boy, who was sitting in the back seat of a jeep with his family at a checkpoint when an Israeli soldier shot him dead-- in a spray of bullets that the army simply called an "accidental burst of gunfire" (Associated Press, 7/25/03). Virtually none of the major U.S. news reports on the August 12 bombings alluded to the Palestinian death toll in this period, leaving out a key piece of the story: For Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, the violence had never ceased; while the Israeli attacks had decreased, there had never been anything like an Israeli cease-fire.
http://www.fair.org/press-releases/relative-calm.html

I disagree about the US press and its portrayal about Palestinians - look at the UK press - you get a much more in depth report about both victims and perpetrators. Perhaps the US press will state a reason for the killing but not much more than that.

I did like this from the Haaretz article:

Quote:
During his entire term, Sharon, with the backing of the U.S. administration, has been preoccupied with attempts to evade the implementation of his declared policy. Instead
of tending to the root of the problem of Israeli existence - Palestinian terror - by ending the Israeli occupation, creating
effective channels for rapprochement with the Palestinian leadership, or at least completing the construction of the separation fence, Sharon is now turning to extreme and irresponsible steps.
It's amazing that everyone can see except the US and the Israeli conservatives.

Quote:
When (and I hope there is a when and not an if) this happens I believe people could be given a chance to travel down a path toward peaceful co-existance.
Eventually all occupations like this IMO break down - and the occupied become more savvy and more dangerous.
post #40 of 41
Here's another article:

Quote:
But now, most of the 400,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank want to stay in the luxurious communities that hefty government subsidies have provided. Politically, it would now be almost impossible for any Israeli government to suggest that they move back to Israel - or to leave them where they are under a Palestinian ruler. But if they stay where they are, and under Israeli sovereignty, then the land left for the Palestinians can never provide the basis for a viable Palestinian state. As with the "Bantustans" created by the old apartheid regime in South Africa, the Palestinian-ruled area would be resource-starved and totally under the control of the stronger power. No recipe there for long-term stability - for white South Africans, or for Israelis.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1009/p09s02-coop.html

I guess my whoe point is that the settlements must be adressed by the US and Israel and the Palestinians - until then....
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