'america's funniest videos'. ha ha. - Page 2

[Frankly Speaking]

RE: "One has nothing to do with the other, in both the way it is performed, and in the reason it is performed."


I have painters here this week painting my house. It doesn't matter if they brush, roll or spray, the end result is the same. Going back to historical documents it is well established the practice was started in the two different areas and cultures for the same reason. That is to impose sexual damage on the male. Just like my house being painted, I don't see the difference. The end result is the same and the reason is the same.

Denial is a wonderful thing. It allows us to justify anything.



Frank

[Xenogenesis]

Dear Frank:

"Never underestimate the power of denial."

[Ilaria]

One has nothing to do with the other, in both the way it is performed, and in the reason it is performed

Both rip off, cut and remove the foreskin, though, right? So, the result is the same.
Personally, I don't care WHY and HOW it is performed-mutilation of an infant is always wrong! I will never agree with FGM in Africa either, as much as history and tradition are used to justify it.

And, obvioulsy, little children like the one in the OP, who know nothing about history, tradition or religion can see things for what they are. It's refreshing.

[merpk]

Will not continue the off-topic discussion. No tolerance here, none was expected.

Will only repeat: Barbs and insults will not change any views, and only serve to turn off "wafflers."

If you are agitating and advocating for making all circumcision illegal ... including that done for religious reasons ... it would be good to state it in the open. Really, it would be more honest.

[Xenogenesis]

Dear Ilaria,

At birth the foreskin is usually fastened tightly to the head of the penis. The foreskin must be ripped forcibly away very much like removing a finger nail.

Off Topic - Limit time spent with people who lack compassion.

[merpk]

Entirely T

... by Last Minute
... I think the phrase is already in circulation.

Just to clarify that ... which is also clarifiable in Reading Comprehension 101 ... the "to coin a phrase" referred to the first part of the parenthetical ... as in "some of my best friends are." And obviously that's already extant in the idiom, or as you might say, "the phrase is already in circulation." So you might also say I was being ... let's say ... facetious.

backatcha

[AnnMarie]

Originally posted by merpk
One has nothing to do with the other, in both the way it is performed, and in the reason it is performed.

Both have the same end result.

[Frankly Speaking]

Amy:

This is a change that is going to come about and it is going to come about rather rapidly. There are two ways that it can happen, either by cultural change or by legislative change. Cultural change will leave room for ritual circumcision and at the worst will take the pressure off of Jewish parents to follow the ritual. The other course of action is legislative change and if that happens, there will be no room for ritual circumcision.

More and more, I see Jews taking a hard line in this issue and fighting the cultural change tooth and nail. The more successful they are, the more likely that this will be done by legislative change which will leave no wiggle room for ritual circumcisions. A prime example of this is the recent protest by Jews against NOCIRC having a table at the recent Le Leche League convention. The Jewish protesters threatened a boycott of the convention if NOCIRC had a table. As a result, NOCIRC's fee was returned and they were not allowed to participate. This type of tactic will have a very negative impact on the views of non-Jews of Jews and will notch up the fight instead of stopping it.

The best course of action for the interests of Jews will be to suport us in making a cultural change, leaving the ritual free of legislative restrictions. This is what has happened in all other formerly circumcising countries. Because it is only Jews and Muslims (for the most part) that are circumcising, it is a non-issue and highly unlikely there will ever be a legislative restriction in those countries.

Basically what I am saying is if you want to keep your ritual, either join us in stopping it for all others or decline to participate in the discussion. This will foster a cultural change and will not percipitate a legislative change. Continuing to debate the issue is likely to cause a backlash against Jews or ritual circumcisions and I don't think either of us want that.




Frank

[Frankly Speaking]

Double post - Sorry!

[Ilaria]

No tolerance here, none was expected.

Are you talking to me? If so, you're right, I don't have much tolerance for infant mutilation, footbinding or any other practice that I find unacceotable. No matter what the 'reasons' are.

Barbs and insults will not change any views, and only serve to turn off "wafflers."

I , perosnally, wasn't trying to change any views, just expressing my opinion that circumcision is circumcision-no matter what it's called and why and how it's done. I don't discriminitae between different types of mutilation-all are not acceptable to me.

If you are agitating and advocating for making all circumcision illegal ... including that done for religious reasons ... it would be good to state it in the open. Really, it would be more honest

I still don't know if you're talking to me, but if you are, I have no problem stating that of course circumcision should be made illegal!

[somemama]

Originally posted by merpk


I won't engage in "religious discussion" that is against the rules of the forum. I will, however, remind you that respectful argument is going to sway people to your point of view, barbs and sarcasm and insults will not.

Believe it or not, that WAS my best attempt at respect regarding this issue. As an English major, I have spent countless hours studying the ways in which people use words. I do see it as mere semantics. IMHO, violations of human rights should always be outlawed, regardless of whether or not they pertain to a particular faith. So, yes, I will just say it out in the open--I think ALL circs should be illegal.

I'm glad you don't expect tolerance here. We have very little of it (well, speaking for myself, anyway.)

[Ilaria]

Oh and regarding religious discussion isn this forum...we all know it is not allowed. Also

On the other hand this forum is also not intended to be a place for the defense of religious circumcision.........

The board is meant to support NOT circumcisizing. Though I hesitate to discourage anyone from posting in this forum, posts in defense of religion seem to only spark debate just as religiously criticial posts do.

[asherah]

wow, y'all.

I had to totally gut all the meaning out of a thread I started recently for even MENTIONING the CONCEPT of Jewish circumcision, and here is this big fat heated discussion.


I just wanted to respond to the OP.. and say:
:Puke
I can't believe anyone thinks anything about circ is funny.

[somemama]

And yes, I agree that the "how" and "why" are very different, but the "what" remains the same.

Frank, you have made some good points (as usual).

[merpk]

:sigh

Ilaria, I have not ever ever ever looked to this forum for any sort of support at all for bris milah. And if you'll reread my posts in this thread, you'll see that they didn't ask for support either. At all. Nothing like it. It started out on-topic of the TV show, stating my having been insulted/offended by it, too, albeit for different reasons (which another poster recognized, thank you ) and then ended up responding to one poster's specifically ritually-aimed wisecracks/comments.

asherah, this isn't supposed to be a heated discussion about anything. I was trying to agree with folks while stating different reasons for the agreed-upon offense; one poster acknowledged this, and everyone else seems to want to jump on me anyway.

Frank, thank you for your (as always) thoughtfully considered response. Will note for point of information that Sweden, which currently has legislation pending to outlaw all circumcision for any reason, only has Jews and Muslims circumcizing at all. So it doesn't seem to matter who in the population is doing it, if there is the legislative will.

I can't speak to what happened at the LLL convention, heard about it just yesterday, and it does sound disappointing, and at the very least, violates First Amendment free speech yaddayaddayadda. Would write LLL letters of protest, were I y'all.

This argument ...

... by you ... this type of tactic will have a very negative impact on the views of non-Jews of Jews and will notch up the fight instead of stopping it ...

... is not a new one at all. It comes up all the time relating to all sorts of issues. Fascinating argument. Will leave it at that.

... by Frank again Basically what I am saying is if you want to keep your ritual, either join us in stopping it for all others or decline to participate in the discussion. This will foster a cultural change and will not percipitate a legislative change. Continuing to debate the issue is likely to cause a backlash against Jews or ritual circumcisions and I don't think either of us want that.

Ummmmmm ... as previously stated in this thread, for myself and others, there is lots of support against RIC. I was "joining you in stopping it," and was not looking to participate in the discussion until someone got all wise-a** on me. Not debating at all.

And the "backlash" against ritual bris milah, as you've all stated so succinctly, is already here, as you've all stated so honestly that you're agitating for legislative action against it.

And about that "backlash" against Jews ...

[somemama]

I don't like being called a wise-a** unless I'm actually being a wise-a**. (Which I specifically refrained from being. I have much to say in the wise-a** department., which I will refrain from actually saying.)

Circ is sad, IMHO, regardless of who does it and why it's done. You can call the procedure/ritual what you want. It remains the same. Perhaps the adults in the room feel better about it, but the baby still lost his foreskin. And EVERY TIME you come to this forum and say that it is different, I will be here to disagree.

I know what it's like to believe in a faith so strongly and then one day have to wonder whether or not my beliefs are in accordance with human dignity. It's a tough paradigm shift, and I wonder whether or not that contributes to your agitation. (Ducking, now).

[merpk]

... by mamajulie
... I don't like being called a wise-a** unless I'm actually being a wise-a**...

Mere semantics.



And my only agitation is because of people here imputing meaning to my posts that aren't remotely relevant.

Glad that you were able to get out of the faith system that made you feel unnatural and undignified, mamajulie. It is a major paradigm shift, agreed, that is life-affirming, isn't it? I know. I've been there.

[Frankly Speaking]

Amy:

I’m not sure if you are aware of all of the information about the issue in Sweden. If you are, please forgive me while I fill others in.

First, what happened: A Muslim family gave their son a “kitchen table” circumcision and the child either died or almost did. It made the news and there was an uproar that resulted in legislation being proposed that licensed medical personnel be present at all future circumcisions. That’s it. I don’t know if it passed or not but whether it did or not is irrevelant. It is a well reasoned proposal for the safety of the child. There was very little opposition form the Muslim community but the Jewish community raised quite a stink. There was also a proposal to make all non-indicated circumcisions in Sweden illegal but it got almost no support in their legislative body.

This illustrates exactly what I was saying. In Sweden, the Jews and Muslims comprise about 1% of the population and as I understand in the US Jews comprise about 3% of the population. They are nearly equal. Sweden has a culture of not circumcising and as a result, minor action was taken to address this one issue. If the US were to change it’s culture to non-circumcising, the situation would be the same here. As long as the safety and welfare of the child is taken care of, there’s not going to be much of a movement to pass legislation against ritual circumcision.

This is how Jews can help us and help themselves. By assisting in a cultural change, the ritual of circumcision will be safe. However, I see more and more evidence that the Jews are fighting this tooth and nail. I see it on debate boards. I see it in false and misleading websites owned by Jews. I see it in false and misleading “research” sponsored by Jews. I see it in boycotts used to blackmail organizations. In fighting in this manner, the Jews are turning the rest of us non-Jews against the Jews. That kind of action will result in a fight for legislation that totally outlaws circumcisions for anything much as FGM has been outlawed totally. This is a fight that the Jews will have a hard time winning because of the difference in the size of the Jewish and non-Jewish population.

So, to repeat myself, it will be much more productive for the Jews to join us or at the least, not fight us. If our feet are held to the fire, we will go for legal action whether it is through the legislature or through the courts. However, the quickest and least expensive way and the way that will leave the fewest dead bodies (figuratively speaking) is for us to join hands or at least not lock horns to facilitate a cultural change. It has worked in every other English speaking country in the world. It can happen in America if we will just let it. Every where else in the world, circumcision has come to an end or nearly come to an end and there have been no laws banning it. That can be done here too.




Frank

[merpk]

Frank, thanks for posting your thoughts.

Am finding your paragraph about the perfidies of the Jews fascinating. And in the rationale of what's "turning the non-Jews against the Jews."



Will leave all that alone and let it stand for what it is.







As far as medical personnel being around at bris milah, why would that be something anyone should support? How would that make anything safer for anybody?


Anyway, I'm sure you're not advocating for that, right? Why would you want doctors making money off circumcisions that they otherwise have nothing to do with? Surely you can't mean that you think that's better?


Knew about the story in Sweden. Horrible, truly. Not sure what relevance that has to bris milah, either, though.


Do wish that this wasn't the topic of discussion, but since it was the OP ...

[Frankly Speaking]

I had to go look up "perfidies." You're using a 50 cent word on a guy with a 10 cent vocabulary.


Medical personel at a surgical procedure is just an act of caution. Mohels have little to no training past the circumcision procedure itself and there are unexpected outcomes occasionally. Babies hearts stop beating and they stop breathing and they have episodes of hemorraging. Having equipment to address these events is just reasonable caution. The difference between having the equipment and personnel on site instead of an ambulance ride away could mean the difference between life and death. Every other circumcision procedure has these safeguards in place and is even required by law. Why should ritual circumcisions have an exception? Is the life of a Jewish baby not worth a little extra cost for a nurse to be present? You are aware that mohels do not have medical malpractice insurance aren't you? The nurse could be in another room during the procedure and when complete, she could do a quick inspection and be gone. She certainly would not be an interference in the ceremony.

Amy, you surprise me. You are reinforcing the stereotypes of Jews! Worried about the cost of a nurse being in attendance? Come on now! There are companies that supply visiting nurses located every where at a cost that would even be acceptable to Jews!




Frank