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When and HOW did you get a clue?  

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
So, since I can only assume that the vast majority of women here DO care about their role in pregnancy and birth and since most women here take an active roll in their reproductive carreers I will ask:

When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs?

What made you be an active participant in your health care?

If you were ever non-active in your health care, why was that?


I edited this post to reflect the changes in my clarity of vision that was brought about by the perpectives shared by people. It's not unusual for me to change my thoughts and feelings and ideas in the course of an internet discussion--and I don't even have to be put in my place I ask questions to learn, after all.
post #2 of 31
I'm actually remarkably lazy about my health care. Which is why I knew I couldn't count on finding just the right HCP for pregnancy/birth--particularly birth. And I knew, from a few stories I read, that if I didn't want to end up in jail for assault I'd better have just the right HCP for birth.

For normal birth, I mean, not so much for emergencies. When there's a true medical need for an HCP it seems like they rally round and do a superb job.

And I suspect that the majority of not caring comes from the same place pretty much all lack of education on child-related topics comes from "well, this is how my mother did it, and I turned out just fine."
post #3 of 31
FOr me it wasn't until after the birth of my first that I started even looking at what it really was to give birth.

With my first I think I was somewhat 'typical' - terrified of giving birth, ready to just go for an epi even before I was in labor, ect. I didn't really do any research and saw no reason why I *wouldn't* trust the 'system'.

TO be honest I had a perfectly fine birth. It was a hospital birth, with an epi and was perfect for me at that time. Looking back of course I can see all types of things that would irk me now (they insisted on giving me an enema when I checked it, no one attempted to help me breastfeed or even suggested I try until *hours* after my birth, no once told me that circ was an unnessary procedure) but overall I had no complications and my baby was fine.

It wasn't until I started reading parenting boards (and not even this one) and read the really inspiration stories of Natural childbirth that I even considered that there might be another way. People (espically my DH) thought I was crazy the second time when I wanted to 'attempt' a natural childbirth. I became so informed on EVERYTHING and went on to have a beautiful birth center water birth (#2), unexpected UC homebirth (#3), and completely hands-off and intervention free hospital birth (#4).

But none of these things would have happend had I not done the research on my own. ANother funny thing, I used to watch A Baby Story - and I know how much so many HATE it for all the crappy stuff - but for me it was the first and only time I ever saw alternative births, so I credit that show to sparkign my interest as well.
post #4 of 31
What changed my mind and led me to being more proactive in my own health care, specifically during pg, was having my 1st son in the hospital. It was not a good experience and after that I began to question everything.

I thought that there must be a better way, there just had to be.

The same month I became pg w/ ds2 I went to a local BF mom's group mtg and they had a homebirth midwife as the guest speaker. After hearing her speak everything just fell into place and I felt like I had found what I knew was there all along.

I don't think we can make anyone care, but my goal is to always inspire thought, discussion, and questioning of the way things are usually done. I do this just be being myself and sharing my passion in conversation about my own births. There are people who want to learn more, there are others who automatically dismiss it, and there are some who outright rebuke it. That is fine w/me bc I am not responsible for their experiences.
post #5 of 31
Breastfeeding was my "gateway drug"

After my son was born and I had some BF difficulties, I ended up on a Yahoo! Breastfeeding group, where I rolled my eyes at the crunchies for a while and snickered with my DH about those AP weirdos--until I actually started reading about AP and discovered that we were A LOT more AP than I realized. Then I found LLL and the transformation really got underway.

I don't remember at what point I realized that my first birth (epidural, OP baby, vacuum extractor, narrowly missed c-section) wasn't the ideal experience that I thought it had been. When I got pg with my second, I decided to try to go naturally, but more just to prove to myself I could do it. I read Sears' The Birth Book and nothing else.

I had my hospital NCB with #2 and sometime after that I really started reading about birth, especially here at MDC. I think some of it was that I'd finally had that NCB and I wasn't so defensive about my medicated birth any more.
post #6 of 31
After my c-section with my first I knew I wanted a vbac when I was pregnant with my second. I had to go to a bigger city with a bigger hospital (approx. 2 hour drive or so) to do this so while I was waiting for my 20 week ultrasound after my appointment I stopped by the biggest bookstore my small town hillbilly eyes had ever seen....a Barnes and Noble (the population of my town is 398, seriously). In the huge pregnancy section, somehow Henci Goer landed in my hands. It was very strange....almost destiny or something. I read that book and began looking for more. I now have my own library! DSL finally came to our Podunk town and I discovered MDC when I googled VBAC. That's my story!
post #7 of 31
When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs? I do trust my midwife, if she said something nutty I would question it though.

What made you be an active participant in your health care? I always try to be active and I am a bit of a control freak.

If you were ever non-active in your health care, why was that? When I was a kid, or when I was induced with ds1.

Why do you think some women don't care? They do care, but they pick different things to care about, such as if they are induced they know the birthdate. And if they are induced they can get an epidural before they really get contrax. I just can't think that they don't care, I just think they are happy being uninformed or underinformed. I also think that the dr's that they see are a big part of the cause since a lot of dr's are really happy with the women that like the very medical birth.

Is there any way to get women to care?
post #8 of 31
i'd have to say that my situation is rather an innate one. i've basically "always" known.

but i'll unpack a bit.

When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs?

my mother tells a story of when i was six. my mother's story goes as follows: due to my eye health, my parents met with a specialist who decided that i needed another surgery. i'd had a couple as an infant/toddler, and now i was 6 so apparently i needed another. encouraged by my parents, i was allowed to ask this surgeon questions.

i asked him how he planned to fix my eyes, what he planned to do. i wanted to be walked through the surgery, with the chart of the eye, and the whole bit like my previous doctor would do. instead, he responded with "i'll fix it just like magic!"

apparently, he thought i was 6 or something.

anyway, i then said to him--according to my mother--"only clowns do magic; i would prefer that a clown not preform surgery on my eyes."

from that moment on, every time the surgery was brought up by my parents, i would protest that surgery under those terms. i felt no reason to get the surgery, and i didn't trust the surgeon.

after the surgery was done, my parents discovered that he did nothing that was necessary nor did what he do do anything for my condition or health. they paid out of pocket for an experimental surgery that they couldn't afford with basically a quack who wanted the money to buy a boat.

and when my parents were lamenting this, i informed them that clowns shouldn't be trusted with surgery.

so, i've known for quite a while that some HCP cannot be trusted.

What made you be an active participant in your health care?

i became really active in my health care as an adult, in college. i had a health condition that caused me to lactate.

my endocrinologist insisted that it was a pituitary tumor, even though there was no evidence--other than lactation--of this, and even though he thought it was 'really' from my using too much marijuanna (a side effect of excessive use of the herb, but i've never smoked it, ever!).

so, he prescribed a fertility medication for me that would help balance out ht ehormones--something he told me i'd have to be on for the rest of my life. he also put my on birth control pills.

i read the papers for both, and learned that the combination could render me infertile. i asked my endocrinologist about it,and he told me that it likely wouldn't be a problem, and if it was, there were always fertility treatments in the future.

at this point, completely unconvinced that it was a pituitary tumor and also completely not trusting htis doctor because he still insisted that i should "get help with my marijuanna problem and it would go away"--i decided to just chuck it.

i started doing my own research, and with diet and exercise, and ultimately fertility charting as well, i was able to completely heal the situation on my own. the basic (stopping hte lactating) took six months, and then getting my fertility cycle in tip-top shape after that took a few years.

pregnant today, healthy as can be! so, i'm definitely in charge of this. i was 19 when i was lactating that first time.

If you were ever non-active in your health care, why was that?

largely because i was a child. i was prbably always 'active' in it to a certain extent--protesting certain things that people wanted to push on me in various ways.

but, i also had to do what my parents said, and they're far more trusting of doctors and medicine than i am.

in fact, they were very upset that i decided to get rid of the prolactin problem on my own, and even now still encourage me to see another endocrinologist on a regular basis "just in case."

of course, i don't really see any HCP on a regular basis anway, simply because i take care of my own health. i just have more success that way.

and certainly more success than my family, who goes to the doctor frequently if not for check ups, then for appointments for various upsets and illnesses.

Why do you think some women don't care?

I think that women do care, but that they have a different philosophical approach to these things. i'll tell another story.

one of my friends is a very amazing woman. she does everything under the sun that you can imagine--she runs our local farmers market, she runs a local community theater, she writes grants for both, she cares for her children, she helps out at their schools and with their non-profit organization activities. she can do just about anything that you can imagine.

but she won't make coffee.

it's not a feminist thing, it's nto because she's intellectually incapable. simply, she has decided that she doesn't want to set her mind to making coffee.

another friend of mine is a cardiac, pediatric anethesiologist. hard core, right? she's awesome. she can't memorize a sequence of pilates postures. there's a traditional sequence. she teaches it twice a week. she does it herself three times a week. she's been doing it for years. she simply hasn't memorized the sequence.

many of us have many things going on in our lives. many of us have responsibility for a variety of things in our lives. there are times and places in our lives where we might just let someone else handle it. sure, coffee and the pilates sequence aren't as intensive or as important as the health care situation, but it's meant to be illustrative.

and the illustration is this--people decide what to spend their energy on, and for some people, trusting the doctor is enough. they don't need to go farther, at the mental/emotional level, and they utilize whatever energy they save by doing so on other projects.

so, i do think that many people are very empowered in various ways, but may not be puttng that energy into their health care situations--because they are happy with those situations, or they're happy to trust that situation 'as is.'

and i can accept that.

Is there any way to get women to care?

i think that acknowledging that they do care is the first step. and if they don't care, i have no clue how to get them to care.

but when i notice that most women do care, but don't have the time or energy to put into their health care that i do, or simply have a very different ideology of what appropriate health care is, then i find i'm more accepting and less frustrated in general.
post #9 of 31
I became distrustful of allopathic medicine when I brought medical concerns and complaints to my doctor and was told that all my problems would go away if I lost 80lbs. I told the doctor that I actually had a raging eating disorder and was trying to recover- losing weight was not somethign I could focus on. He said I should continue to eat less and my issues would go away when I was sufficiently thin.

I have been to about 10 different physicians since my mid teens to complain about various health issues. Each one focused on a) my weight (I'm overweight, perfectly healthy, not obese) or b)the fact that I was not on birth control (Catholic, didn't date until I was out of high school- HBC was not necessary) and insinuated that I was lying about my lack of sexual contact.

Turns out I have a thyroid condition. I've been depressed, had achy joints, have been unable to make it through full days due to exhaustion, and had low basal body temps since I was a teen.

I always knew something was wrong, but didn't know how to find the help I needed, so I learned to deal with my symptoms. The entire experience made me realize that doctors knew less then I did about my own body. I learned to trust my own instincts and had a UC with my first baby.

Now I am a much larger participant in my healthcare.
post #10 of 31
When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs?
During my first pregnancy I got a hint when my OB frowned at the mention of the words "birth plan" I swear the man had a permanent smile on his face. I thought his face was going to break when he frowned. He was a very nice man, but I was wary of him after that. A week before dd1 was born he wanted to induce me the day before my "due date" to fit around his vacation. I protested and he said "Pitocin's not that bad" I declined the induciton and was really happy that my dd was born when he was on vacation. The moment he said that I knew I would never have him be my hcp again.

What made you be an active participant in your health care?
I took Bradley classes. I never really thought about it before I was pregnant. It had never occured to me that women's wishes wouldn't be followed when she was in labor. I thought labor was tortuous by default.

If you were ever non-active in your health care, why was that? When I first got pregnant I thought that I would just get an epidural. Mom was great at scaring me my whole life about the birth process. I never thought that I would be able to give birth without drugs. My dh convinced me that we should take Bradley classes in case there was some reason that we would be delayed in getting the epidural we needed to be prepared. I'm so glad he did.

Why do you think some women don't care?I think they do care, but they don't realize that there is a choice. Women who want choices in labor are painted as freaks and outsiders who don't care about their babies. Its such a smear campaign. "Why trust yourself when you can trust us?, You're ignorant anyway, we have all these wonderful technoligical things to save you and your baby from the horrible design that nature has made."

Is there any way to get women to care?I guess it comes down to education. If women don't know about their choices then they have none.
post #11 of 31
Honestly, I just don't think its on a lot of women's radars. Birth is personal for a lot of people and they only talk about it with close friends and family. They find a "good" OB, take the hospital tour and feel like they've done what they should do.
In addition, the moms I know who don't go this route are worried about that .00001% chance that they will need an MD ASAP to make everything right and if they get in the way of that, its just going to complicate matters. These moms DO care, thats whats weird. They care just as much as you or I, they just approach it differently.
Finally, I think for a lot of women to question the status quo it requires time that they don't think they have. Think about it, some moms are working 2-3 jobs, are exhausted and just have enough time to maybe get a beer or a hot bath at the end of the day. Do you blame them for not wanting to sit down and educate themselves about the issues with our health care system?
I agree, it seems like some people just are too lazy to care.
post #12 of 31
I use to think doctors were semi-omniscient, selfless beings like most Americans do. My first step towards enlightenment actually came through my husband's treatment for depression, during which I realized there is more guesswork than science to psychiatry, that most psychiatrists appear to be arrogant idiots, and that all they are in truth is walking prescription pads.

So, when I got pregnant with my first that started to extrapolate out from that specialty to doctors in general. I started with an OB, but knew early on I wanted a natural birth. I started reading, online and books, and decided I wanted a waterbirth. Switched to a hospital that had that option and used midwives. I took a Bradley class, which almost completed my deprogramming.

Years later, I've been teaching and attending births for awhile, had my 2nd at home unassisted, and consider myself completely deprogrammed
post #13 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro246 View Post
I'm sick and tired of women not taking responsibility for themselves. I don't understand if women don't care of if they don't know to care about what happens during pregnancy and birth.
Why do you care about other people's healthcare decisions? Maybe you should mind your own business.
post #14 of 31
When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs?
I attribute it to two sources: dh, and the public library. dh never trusted doctors. Especially for childbirth. I've never asked him why, but I imagine it has something to do with his mother, who had some very negative hospital birthing experiences and later turned to homebirth.
I knew I wanted to try for a natural, low-intervention birth, partly because I was afraid of the epidural. When I started reading natural childbirth books I learned a lot of unsettling things about how hospitals handle birth. This didn't dissuade me from a hospital birth but I did decide to use a midwife instead of an OB. dh had wanted a homebirth but felt this was a reasonable compromise (I had a homebirth with my second and third babies, having gained a lot of confidence after my first birth).

What made you be an active participant in your health care?
The things I described above, plus taking a Bradley class. That class gave me a lot of valuable tools for how to talk to doctors and make decisions, tools I've been able to apply to other situations, not just childbirth.

If you were ever non-active in your health care, why was that?
Two major factors: one, I was raised that way. Two: I personally have issues with authority figures. I find it very difficult to question them and am reluctant to seem "difficult". And I see doctors as authority figures. This is something I have had to consciously work on, and that I still struggle with.

Why do you think some women don't care?
Because they have been raised to trust doctors. I don't blame them; the way people talk about doctors, how they are shown on tv, how they are described in books almost always makes them out as knowing best, etc.
Another problem is that so many things have been medicalized in our society, including childbirth, but not limited to it. A lot of things which you once would have dealt with on your own - like acne, or being overweight - are increasingly dealt with by doctors. It seems like there's a pill and a treatment program for everything, and every aspect of your life has to be managed - maybe this appeals to people because then they don't have to take responsibility? I don't know.

Is there any way to get women to care?
Women need to have more confidence in themselves and less in doctors. They need to start seeing doctors more like we see politicians - people with some expertise, doing a tough job, but who often disagree on things and have different approaches one to another, and who are ultimately chosen by and answerable to the people. Unfortunately I don't see any way to accomplish this, at least not quickly. A few things that could help, and could be doable, would be to add some sort of "medical decision-making" lecture (that wasn't just "trust your doctor") to high school health classes. Or to have health insurance cover childbirth classes, and hope that a substantial number of women chose good ones instead of the hospital-offered ones. Perhaps hospital policies could be changed to ensure that doctors actually got informed consent for everything they do. Or maybe start a campaign to give away books to pregnant women...



Now that I think about it, it was going through the process of deciding what kind of birth I wanted that caused me to lose my blind trust in doctors (for all health matters, not just birth). I think this may be true for other women as well. Perhaps this is because, although most women do give birth in the "modern" way, with epidurals and a high c-section rate, etc., people do definitely perceive that there are choices around childbirth, when they rarely talk about choices in other medical situations (I actually don't see childbirth as a medical situation but most people do). So I think the more we can make natural childbirth a visible, viable alternative the more it will help women take responsibility for their medical decisions, even if those decisions are not ones I would make. Of course, I would like it to be the norm, and not an alternative, but that will take a lot of work and time...
post #15 of 31
I thought I knew how to achieve a natural birth. I certainly knew all the benefits of it, and I didn't want to gamble with drugs. I mistakenly thought that because I had midwives attending my birth, I could have the experience I wanted. WRONG. It was the "buy a hospital ticket, get a hospital ride" saying to a T. And even though I fully acknowledged that it sucked and I didn't want to do it again, it didn't really hit me how WRONG it was until a little while later, after it had had time to sink in and I'd been able to really sit back and think about it. I was outraged: at the CNMs for making me trust them, at the hospital for doing this to me, at myself for not knowing more, and most of all at those around me for NOT TELLING ME that this is how it REALLY goes down.

I'm definitely not a sheeple. I never have been and never will be. I thought I was taking the right proactive approach to my birth. But it wasn't enough. This monster was way, WAAAYYYY bigger than something a few Lamaze pamphlets and a nice birth plan could handle. But I just didn't know any better, and I think the majority of women out there don't know any better either. Like me, they don't have access to the kind of information, or the kind of people to GIVE them the information, so they either think "this is how birth is supposed to happen, what other choice is there?" or they go "oh well, that sucked, but that's the way the cookie crumbles." They don't realize that it doesn't HAVE to be that way, that it can definitely be MUCH better. And most of all, that they DESERVE to have that good experience.

Unfortunately, many decades of propoganda and brainwashing on behalf of OBs everywhere has demeaned that good experience as some hippy-dippy nonsense that is just a lot of suffering masked by incense and chants, and that birth is really a horrible ordeal that only they can save women from. Like they said in TBOBB, it was, and still is, quite possibly the most effective smear campaign ever.
post #16 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenOfThePride View Post
Why do you care about other people's healthcare decisions? Maybe you should mind your own business.
I don't care about their decisions. I care about the fact that unless a woman takes an active roll in the decision making process she's all too likely to recieve health care that isn't evidence based. I care that decisions women AREN'T actually making decisions--they are being made for her by OBs with their agendas.

Maybe I should just mind my own business and be content with American birth culture. Maybe it's OK if nothing ever changes.
post #17 of 31
Thread Starter 
I appreciate all of your perspectives! It's so interesting how and why each of you navigate the health care system.

I will say that I didn't mean that women don't care. I understand what you said, zoebird, about putting it in the hands of someone else is often "good enough"--because we can't educate ourselves about ever facet of life. We just can't.

My frustration is really with the fact that we shouldn't HAVE to care. Our bodies & processes should be supported by the protocols, not hindered by it. We should be able to trust the default birth experts (OBs, in this country)to practice evidence based medicine.

I don't care if an individual woman has a birth I wouldn't want as long as she's happy with it. I care that women are being. . .whatever it is that's happening to us.
post #18 of 31
Thread Starter 
So, I thought about it a little more.

I think it's unrealistic to get more women to become active participants. Maybe a few changes in the sex-ed stuff that kids go through would help, but other than that I think women are either ready and willing to "care" about pregnancy and birth or they aren't. There's probably very little to do to light fires under peoples bums unless a pilot light is already there.

I think changing the system from without is unlikely. I'll have to continue to focus my efforts on changing the system from within.
post #19 of 31
I actually started caring the more and more I breastfed my DS. The more and more I felt alienated from the rest of mainstream because of something so simple and natural as breastfeeding.

One internet site would just lead to the next and the trail finally led me here. I found out that the ones I was first visiting were too mainstream, then I moved on...and each one would have someone posting about another forum that seemed better suited to me.

I have to admit though... as much as I was/am a breastfeeding fanatic... I was still VERY clueless and pregnancy/birthing issues until VERY LATE in this 2nd pregnancy ... and then thing that really moved me to take action was a thread I read here on mothering.com.... it was about delayed cutting of the cord. I had NEVER heard of that before and suddenly realized that i better get with it and educate myself more. I ended up hiring a doula that same week...!! I have been clueless and there's probably still a lot I don't know... but I think I know a lot more than a lot of my other mainstream friends.

They all listen to me when i talk about delaying solids, breastfeeding and not wanting to be induced this time and not wanting an epidural but i know they all think i'm slightly crazy... oh well, it's their choice to go along with the crowd.

Why was I non-active?
I didn't know better. I followed the actions of the women around me.

When did I realize I can't trust HCP?
I started to learn this more and more through information about the formula companies giving free samples, etc. I found out about this through internet mainly. I found out that it doesn't stop with formula companies - it's a lot of drug companies and doctors are motivated by money. Through my love of breastfeeding, I went to see Dr. Jack Newman speak and I got a lot of this through his talk. When I attended a local bf'ing event, the speaker was a local doc who doesn't allow any "free lunches" in her office and NO products that advertise drugs. I realized the vast majority of offices are not this way.

Why do some women don't care?
Probably for the same reason I didn't... They just don't know better and they are following the examples they think are good - their moms, sisters, aunts, etc. They go to the doc and trust the doc. They don't even think anything is wrong with this picture. Others probably don't care because they don't have the time or resources... that is, they are under educated, in a socio-economic group that doesn't allow them the same access to internet and resources that would bring some of these issues to light.

How to get women to care?
WOW... big question. I can't even get my "educated" friends to care about something as simple as starting solids at six months and get them to realize that rice cereal is not going to make the baby sleep through the night. I don't have any clue on how to change the norms of our culture but I think sticking to your convictions and not being afraid to talk about them will slowly help. I was really ho-hum about breastfeeding until a friend before me had a baby and shared her list of bf'ing benefits with me. Then I decided it was worth trying. That simple conversation snowballed into me being who I am today as a parent and as a person. And i like this new me way more than the old non-caring me.
post #20 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graceoc View Post
FOr me it wasn't until after the birth of my first that I started even looking at what it really was to give birth.

With my first I think I was somewhat 'typical' - terrified of giving birth, ready to just go for an epi even before I was in labor, ect. I didn't really do any research and saw no reason why I *wouldn't* trust the 'system'.
Yeah, this is pretty much how I felt as well. And then I gave birth to dd1 and all of my illusions were shattered. When I came to the conclusion after her traumatic birth I realized that the only person I could rely on to make the right decisions for my body was me, I started researching. And that is how I became the crunchy no-vaxxin', no circ, co-sleeping, waterbirthing, cloth diapering, extended breastfeeding hippie that I am today.
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