When and HOW did you get a clue? - Page 2

[~sweet pea~]

I'm sick and tired of women not taking responsibility for themselves. I don't understand if women don't care of if they don't know to care about what happens during pregnancy and birth. I am SICK and tired of being angry at the system FOR women who are harmed by the system.

Then stop. Really. Just stop.

It is absolutely exhausting to carry such a grandiose responsibility on one's shoulders. We are truly like Atlas having to worry for all those clueless, irresponsible women who are too apathetic and ignorant to worry for themselves. If only they were half-so well-informed and responsible for themselves as we are. What a burden to be enlightened among sheep.

Sorry, but this just really rankles me. I realize that the intentions are benevolent, but the thought-process is paternalistic and condescending. Maybe it's just my contrarian nature. I can't speak for all women, but I can speak for myself: whatever choices (or non-choices) I may make in the realm of healthcare or otherwise, please don't worry FOR me; but, if you feel that you must worry FOR me, then at the very least, please don't whine about it.

(I edited this after re-reading it to make it less directed at the OP because my frustration is not really towards the OP, or anyone in particular, but just the generally pervasive attitude that makes certain, negative, presumptions about the knowledge and intelligence of women who participate in mainstream childbirths. Quite frankly, it's a little reminiscent of the "mommy wars" between WOHMs and SAHMs: if someone chooses a lifestyle or healthcare approach that differs from your own it must be because they are or they don't know... [fill-in the blank])

[elisent]

Honestly, I think the internet changed things for me. With my first pregnancy all I had was some second hand books my mom gave me from her pregnancy and a few similar books from our small town library.

During my second pregnancy we got internet and suddenly I could read message boards and articles about birth. For example, not only did I discover the Bradley method and that it was recommended I was also able to look at their website and find classes in my area.

[FillingMyQuiver]

When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs?

I think I've always been leery of HCPs in general, but it was definitely solidified after having DS1 in a hospital. I knew I wanted a drug free, non-intervention, vaginal birth followed by BFing DS for at least the 1st 6mo. That's not what I got.: While I'm still BFing DS 50mo later, I'm still mourning his birth experience and how I feel my OB took advantage of me as a scared firt-time mom.
My water was broken after only 6hrs of labor b/ I wasn't "progressing" fast enough for my OB. When he said he was going to break my water, he said it w/ such urgency that I was scared to say "No" even though I didn't want it to happen. Since my water was broken, I was "on the clock". 5hrs after having my water broken, I still hadn't budged dilation wise so I was put on pitocin. Those were the WORST ctx I've ever experienced and I felt like I was failing. The pitocin kept being increased every 15min and in 4hrs, I only progressed 2cm. At that point, the nurse suggested stadol to help me "relax". I told DH and my mom "no", but even my mom (who had 4 children as naturally as could be, even when induced w/ 1 of them) suggested I take it b/c she could see the tension in my body and face and knew it would only get harder as I fought the ctx. So, I took the stadol. I cried as they put it in my IV.
I dilated 4.5cm in 1hr after that. I pushed for 15min and DS1 was born. I developed a blood infection after that and was in the hospital for 4 extra days.

The day before I went into labor I had been at my OB's for a checkup. I told them I thought I had a UTI. Despite my insistence, nothing showed up on the in-office urine sample, so they didn't treat me for it, but they did send out the sample to be cultured.

Wouldn't you know, the blood infection that I developed was from the UTI they didn't believe was there and wouldn't treat me for??: It just confirmed my idea that some HCPs just couldn't be trusted.

What made you be an active participant in your health care?

I found MDC shortly after DS1 was born and started thinking about what had happened w/ DS1's birth. I started charting when AF returned and when I got pg w/ DD, I went to my OB (stupid me) and said I was pg. My period had been on and off for 6mo, but I KNEW when I got pg. They said it was impossible and when I had a u/s to confirm the pg and date it, I was right on. They were shocked. Then they told me I had to wean DS. I told them no and asked if I could have sex during pg. They of course said yes, so I told them that if I could have sex, I could BF through my pg. At 20wks, I left my OBs care and transfered to a team of HB MWs. That was the beginning.

If you were ever non-active in your health care, why was that?

I had been taught that we trust our HCPs. They went to school for so many years and they were the "experts". It's funny b/c now my mom questions everything she's told, too and is active in her and my father's health care.

Why do you think some women don't care?

I don't think it's that women "don't care", I think it's that women DON'T KNOW. I had only come in contact w/ 1 person IRL who had a HB before having DS1 and her family made it seem as though they did it for financial reasons. They paid for their medical expenses out-of-pocket and having a HB was cheaper than a hospital birth.

Then I met another mom who had a HB and she talked about it from the birth choice perspective. How wonderful it was, no stress, comfort at it's best, listening to your body, and I knew that's what I wanted. But before that, I didn't know the option was really there.

Is there any way to get women to care?

You can't *make* any one care, but you can offer them the choices. When I tell people I've delivered 2 babies at home, 1 weighing 8lbs 10oz, and the other 9lbs, with NO drugs in a pool, I get that "deer in the headlights" look. But then I start talking about how empowering it is and how I've done the hospital birth and how different it is. I try to offer education on the level that appeals most to them. Some people need to hear statistics, some need to be reached on the emotional level, some need to hear my once very medically minded DH talk about the difference.

[diamond lil]

I hear you, Mama, and I do care!

When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs?
When I went to visit my gyno after learning I was pregnant and the first thing out of his mouth was , "So let's get you a flu shot." I walked out of that office and have never been back.

What made you be an active participant in your health care?
When I realized that the snake oil practice is alive and well in the Western World. I started to do research on vaccine inujuries and deaths. It was a wakeup call.

If you were ever non-active in your health care, why was that?
I used to be a passive participant in my health care. I was young and stupid, and I trusted doctors because I was raised that way. Now I don't trust a doctor farther than I can throw him and it irritates my establishment-minded parents to no end!

Why do you think some women don't care?
Becuase it takes EFFORT to care. It takes EFFORT to do the research and HARD WORK to make wise choices about what goes into our bodies. I recently had to witness my SIL's pregnancy and elective c-section and it totally sickened me how uninvolved she was in her own healthcare, and ultimately, her child's. She never once offered her child the breast, not even for the collestrum. She was trained to believe that formula is best and now her child suffers as a result. It's so much easier to just sit back and let the doctors make the decisions for you. I'm not comfortable with that anymore.

Is there any way to get women to care?
I think there are small improvements. I think less women are smoking due to cancer scares. But as far as pregnancy and delivery, there is so much crap science out there, old wives tales, etc., it is really hard to seperate good info from crap. I learned a lot here. Honestly. If it were not for MDC, I wouldn't be as knowledgeable as I am. This website has pointed me to countless resources I otherwise would not have known about.

[Synchro246]

Originally Posted by ~sweet pea~

Then stop. Really. Just stop.

It must be absolutely exhausting to carry such a grandiose responsibility on your shoulders. You are truly like Atlas having to worry for all those clueless, irresponsible women who are too apathetic and ignorant to worry for themselves. If only they were half-so well-informed and responsible for themselves as you are for all of them. What a burden to be enlightened among sheep.

Sorry, but this just really rankles me. I realize that your intentions are benevolent, but your thought-process is paternalistic and condescending. Maybe it's just my contrarian nature. I can't speak for all women, but I can speak for myself: whatever choices (or non-choices) I may make in the realm of healthcare or otherwise, please don't worry FOR me; but, if you feel that you must worry FOR me, then at the very least, please don't whine about it.

Please read my follow up responses sweet pea. I don't worry for individuals, I worry for women, as in the generic half of the human species. Maybe it is paternalistic to care and want better for women. I'm going to whine about the crappy system until it's different though.

[~sweet pea~]

It seems that about the time that you were replying, I was already self-editing my post. I'm guessing that my edits don't make much difference for you.

I don't care if an individual woman has a birth I wouldn't want as long as she's happy with it. I care that women are being. . .whatever it is that's happening to us.

I see this now and confess (I need a mea culpa smilie) that I hadn't seen it before.

Originally Posted by Synchro246

Please read my follow up responses sweet pea. I don't worry for individuals, I worry for women, as in the generic half of the human species. Maybe it is paternalistic to care and want better for women. I'm going to whine about the crappy system until it's different though.

I get it. You are frustrated with the crappy system. It certainly needs work. Western medicine's approach to childbirth is to "fix" a natural process that isn't (usually) broken, on account of the fact that childbirth involves pain and requires patience. [IMHO this is because western society in general has zero tolerance for either pain or delay; the medicine merely reflects those values.]

Whine about the system if you want. But if you are going to characterize women (whether individually or "half the species") as willing or uninformed victims of "whatever it is that's happening to us", I'm going to respond by objecting to the condescension.

[frontierpsych]

When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs?
I've had so many various health problems that doctors just couldn't figure out. So from the time I was a young teen, I was acutely aware that doctors didn't know everything. Since then I began to do my own research on matters concerning my own body by looking up symptoms and seeing what I could do about them without meds (since I was a Navy brat, and all the military hospital ever did was prescribe motrin for everything and never even attempted to deal with the source).

What made you be an active participant in your health care?
I finally realised that doctors could/would only do so much, and that their way wasn't the only way. If I wanted help above and beyond what they were giving me, I'd have to seek it out myself.

If you were ever non-active in your health care, why was that?
Because I was a kid and didn't know any better!

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by Synchro246

When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs?

I'd kind of been skeptical of doctors in general since I was a teenager, since it seemed like every time I went to one, they either couldn't figure out what was wrong with me, or they told me what I already knew was wrong and they couldn't do anything about it.

What made you be an active participant in your health care?

When I decided to have a homebirth, I guess...I think it's kind of hard to make that decision without willing to be an active participant. Also, I got more into "natural" living and part of that for me was attempting to diagnose/fix things that doctors either blow off or just prescribe meds for, like acne.

If you were ever non-active in your health care, why was that?

As a kid and young adult I guess I was pretty much non-active, although I developed a skepticism of doctors and their effectiveness fairly young. I guess I didn't really think about becoming active, other than occasionally deciding not to go to the doctor because they never did much anywhere, or blowing off whatever they recommended if I didn't agree with it, until I got more into "natural" living.

[crittersmom]

I'm a minority and its just part of the baggage to mistrust a HCP while at the same time still obeying.Its a doublethink struggle, you don't really think they know best but you don't know what else to do so you follow along.Over the years I've had too many Drs not know how to help me and just throw pills at me to cover it up.Each of my births helped open my eyes a little wider.When I was pregnant with my first,I did not know anyone and the only "education" about childbirth I had was A Baby Story.The scenes of women being told when to push and when not to push made me angry but I didn't know that you didn't have to do it that way.I chose an OB because I didn't know what a MW was and family lore is that the women need OBs.The Dr wanted to schedule an induction at my 39 week visit.I told him lets talk After the baby is due.With each of my pregnancies I read more and more and found internet and talked to more women and was respected less by the Drs I saw.I would never have even known about UC if I hadn't seen it here.It was something I instinctively wanted but didn't know about.
Its part of our everyday mainstream American culture to give birth with drugs and Drs and machines.A way of stepping off that bandwagon is seeing how normal alternatives can be.A woman can stay home and still be safe.A woman doesn't need to be told when to push if she doesn't have an epidural and you aren't looking at the machine.I see more and more woman wearing thier babies and carriers being offered at Target and walmart.All birth stories need to shared mroe, not just the dramatic,knuckle clenching kinds you see on TV and movies.

[thefragile7393]

When did you realize that you can't just "trust" your HCPs?

I was raised with the "doc knows best" mentality. Because of this, I watched my mom always do what docs said, she literally turned into some sort of meek mouse at my doc appts when I was younger; same with the ones I went to her with when I was older. I watched her as she went through an un-necessary mastectomy by listening to the first doctor she went to, never having a 2nd opinion. I watched as the doc (who had the personality of a barracuda) was extremely rude whenever she called with questions in the days following the surgery. To this day she refuses to acknowledge the doc was a jerk and a mastectomy could have been avoided. It protects her mentally so I cannot push it. I vowed to never ever be like this, because I saw the pain and anguish she went through after the surgery.

I realized it even more after ds was born and I got flat-out lies and bs from my son's first ped (and subsequent peds) about bf'ing and vax'ing. That's when I turned into full-blown X-Files mode (Trust No One).

What made you be an active participant in your health care?

My first pregnancy. I worked in medical records at a few local hospitals for a while, and saw and heard the things the docs said and did. I always wondered if whatever was done was really necessary. I also have had hormonal problems my whole post-puberty life, and i realized that I didn't want a terrifying birth experience, especially since I feel I'm a risk for PPD/anxiety as it is.

So I researched. Found the local birth center where a lady from church had birthed in water...I decided I wanted that. It is exactly what I got and it was amazing.

Looking back I realized there was a lot I DIDN'T know (didn't visit this site like I should haev, read mostly the mainstream books and websites/message boards). Now I've come to the realization I'm going to have to work for the birth I want and not blindly trust anyone (as one PP mentioned, she was let down greatly by her care providers, and I'm in a situation where the same could happen to me). I will ahve to work for the birth I want, and if things don't go as they should, at least I can say I did my best. 1st battle will be coming in a few weeks with the way I want the GD test done :

I do believe women care. Every woman wants a safe birth, healthy baby, healthy mama. The obstacles, I feel, are the medical establishment and their treatment of normal pregnancies and birth, and the media, with their ignorance/misinformation and showing of birth as always high-risk, dangerous, and painful beyond belief. Change those two and women will likely come around eventually to at least realizing that not every intervention is warrented or needed, or that you don't HAVE to have drugs, or that you do have choices. I don't see any of that happening anytime soon though.

[Synchro246]

Originally Posted by crittersmom

All birth stories need to shared mroe, not just the dramatic,knuckle clenching kinds you see on TV and movies.

This is something I was thinking about. I know TV loves drama, but ALL birth has drama. The baby story is usually a pretty mellow show. If there's a show dedicated to high-risk birth (Special Delivery?) then why not have a birth story show that's all natural and homebirth. I mean, who are these shows marketed to anyay--women in their childbearing years. Homebirth stories would be no less attention getting than any of the other shows. Can you imagine the teasers "Is she going to take a bite of that placenta or not?"

It seems like it'd be fun too. . . .I know I'd be willing to act out and "dramatize" my homebirth with my second.

Anyway.

In the realistic aspect of sharing all birthstories--where? how? I don't know when it's appropriate. Birth comes up, and people tell there stories and it's so apples and oranges that bringing up my birth story in one of these conversations is almost always non-sequitur.
Ok, I'm rambling.