"you're counting on the vaxers to save your child" - Page 2

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

Just thought I would share MY personal experience as of recent. My GF and I were having a discussion about the NY bill, 10942, and she made a comment about they might be trying to protect those who DO choose to vaccinate? I was genuinely inquisitive? I asked, Protect them from what? She said, from those who dont vaccinate? Still not understanding, i said, what would they need protecting from? (Now at this point, I am still not understanding her, because i really didnt think she was THIS misinformed) So she said, we I can see (a common friend of ours with a baby the same age as mine) being leary about Charlie (my son) being in the same class as hers because hes not vaccinated. I about LOST my mind! I said, If So and So's son is completly vaccinated, what does she have to worry about from my son if vaccines are soooo effective? If anything, my son would have more to worry about from hers, since certain ones like Varicella and MMR SHED! Not that I would care if he got any of those. So she proceeded to ACTUALLY state that she thought my sons immune system would be weaker because he DIDNT get vaccineated, because vaccines make your immune system stronger. MY GOD, I was appalled. I dropped the conversation right then and there because i couldnt stand knowing anymore how uneducated she was, although she thinks I am the stupid one. I ended it with, well with the amount of research I have done, I feel comfortable with my facts.

I just cant get over how brainwashed people have become.

[YesandNo]

I'd tell them that their statement makes absolutely no sense. If they believe vaccines work and their child is vaccinated then why would my child put them at risk? They're suppose to be immune, right?

The theory is this: vaccines are supposed to eradicate childhood illnesses. Non-vax kids are instead introducing the diseases into communities. This gives the diseases a chance to mutate into *new* strains....... strains that the vaccine does not protect against.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by YesandNo

This gives the diseases a chance to mutate into *new* strains....... strains that the vaccine does not protect against.

I have never seen any evidence of this idea.

-Angela

[applejuice]

That is a bad theory. Actually, new strains would be introduced because of vaccination.

The vaccines that shed are given to children which makes them carriers of the disease they are vaccinated against and they carry the disease to those who are not vaccinated.

As one can see, there is a difference of opinion here.

[Angela512]

Originally Posted by YesandNo

The theory is this: vaccines are supposed to eradicate childhood illnesses. Non-vax kids are instead introducing the diseases into communities. This gives the diseases a chance to mutate into *new* strains....... strains that the vaccine does not protect against.

Because no virus and no bacteria could POSSIBLY mutate on its own. LOL I had a "friend" state this to me.

And, for the poster who had the child with pertussis...the vax does not prevent pertussis!! It's supposed to make the case more mild. So not vaxing with Pertussis means nothing. LOL Oh, geez...scare 'em so they'll vax.

I'll say one thing...if they have to use fear to get me to do anything, you can bet I'll never do it.

[In Exile]

Most of the time it's absolutely useless to debate vaccines with
a) a doctor and
b) somebody that's given "informed consent" by reading the yellow handout at the doctor's office and maybe "what to expect".

For Doctors that debate is scary as hell, it questions everything they have learned-and who are you non-doctor to tell them they might be not up to date? I stop debating if a so called doctor refutes shedding and calls the possibility of vaxed children as carriers an "urban myth". They don't want to see any different and will not budge a millimeter on "herd immunity"- nor are even doctors aware of the ingredients of vaxes. Always blows my mind that most parents that researched the topic for years know more about the make-up of vaxes, than doctors.
They just feel threatened and a debate with them leads to nowwhere.

Debating with someone who has not read a single book on the topic, or does not even KNOWS what vaxes their child received- debate it just as fruitless. It's very rare somebody is willing to open their mind that there MIGHT be a problem- most people grow up with "if everyone is vaxed we're all safe" and anyone that does not vax is a thread for "weakening herd immunity"- and fear and fearmongering is what keeps people vaxing, not evidence or "studies".

My father only knows "vaxes are good", that's all- how are you supposed to argue with someone like that? You don't.

[thefragile7393]

Originally Posted by Angela512

I'll say one thing...if they have to use fear to get me to do anything, you can bet I'll never do it.

That's what I thought when I started educating myself....if you have to use fear-mongering and bullying to to get me to do something, then I must be doing something right in refusing.

Debating with someone who has not read a single book on the topic, or does not even KNOWS what vaxes their child received- debate it just as fruitless. It's very rare somebody is willing to open their mind that there MIGHT be a problem- most people grow up with "if everyone is vaxed we're all safe" and anyone that does not vax is a thread for "weakening herd immunity"- and fear and fearmongering is what keeps people vaxing, not evidence or "studies".

Exactly. The handout at the appt is enough, for instance. I had one friend who thought package inserts and the handout were the same thing :

[CanidFL]

Debating with someone who has not read a single book on the topic, or does not even KNOWS what vaxes their child received- debate it just as fruitless.

Yeah I remember getting into a vax conversation with a new mom at a breastfeeding class I went to and she said she just researched vaccines and I was all excited to have someone to talk to so I eagerly asked what books/studies she read. She looked at me and said “I read all the pamphlets and talked to my doctor, I am so glad I did the research and now know that all those non vaxers are just paranoid. We will be vaxing on schedule based on my research”. My heart broke and I just said “well good for you”. To continue that conversation would be pointless

To the OP – I used to be one of those people who though non vaxers were dangerous to society and I was mad that people would actually ‘withhold’ vaccines from children. I was appalled by non vaxers. Now I’m on the other side : I have had a few people use that line on me. One mom on another board actually said “it’s not fair that I have to inject my babies just so you can be protected and keep your son pure”.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Danielle13

true...but I think they're saying I'm also putting their kids at risk because I"m not vaxing...? thats not true right? if anything they're putting MY kid at risk.

To that I would say that if they are so confident that vaxes are the be all that ends all with disease, then their vaxed child has nothing to worry about from my non vaxed child.


And in general my feeling is that to continue to vax everybody for everything just breeds new diseases and strong strains of the one we already have. If anything their insistence on vaxing is putting EVERYBODY at risk.

[In Exile]

Originally Posted by CanidFL

Yeah I remember getting into a vax conversation with a new mom at a breastfeeding class I went to and she said she just researched vaccines and I was all excited to have someone to talk to so I eagerly asked what books/studies she read. She looked at me and said “I read all the pamphlets and talked to my doctor, I am so glad I did the research and now know that all those non vaxers are just paranoid. We will be vaxing on schedule based on my research”. My heart broke and I just said “well good for you”. To continue that conversation would be pointless

To the OP – I used to be one of those people who though non vaxers were dangerous to society and I was mad that people would actually ‘withhold’ vaccines from children. I was appalled by non vaxers. Now I’m on the other side : I have had a few people use that line on me. One mom on another board actually said “it’s not fair that I have to inject my babies just so you can be protected and keep your son pure”.

Gee, it really isn't fair that you are being expected to inject your child with all kinds of poison-she has a point...But, she is just as free to keep her child "pure", as we all are. Wonder who forced her??

[paquerette]

Meh. If anything, they're putting my children at risk. It's hard enough to find chicken pox these days, let alone measles and mumps and rubella.

[Danielle13]

does anyone have any information on herd immunity and how it doesn't work?

[mama_mojo]

I genuinely believe our children might come down with the diseases I am not vaccinating for. I had to really accept that my children might get polio or pertussis. But I CHOSE this risk. Most people do not actually make a real choice when they vaccinate; it's not herd immunity, it's herd mentality. I have yet to hear someone who vaccinates admit that they CHOSE the risk of poisoning their children (or something less provocative); I'm sure there are exceptions, but everyone I talked to vaccinated their children because they were supposed to. That is not the same as choosing.

eta: Because I believe in informed consent, I tell people my kids are not vaccinated. They can risk themselves out of the opportunity to know me.

[dancingmommyof2]

That's a good response, red head!

Originally Posted by rredhead

As for the info being no one's business - I'm proud that we don't vaccinate. I want to engage people in debate. Sadly, no one else wants that. They all freak out, or mumble something about how they had all their shots, blah blah blah.
If you're really looking to stop someone and make them think, I'd try this:
You're not supposed to give a baby solid foods until 6 months. At that point, you're supposed to only try one food every 5 days. But somehow, it's OK to inject 8 different disease-preservative combinations into my baby's bloodstream. How does that work?

I've found that effective, as usually people will change the subject at that point.

[dancingmommyof2]

Good point

I'll say one thing...if they have to use fear to get me to do anything, you can bet I'll never do it.[/QUOTE]

Very good point.

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by lyttlewon

I would tell them that most vaccines have host protective abilities not transmission prevention abilities.

People really don't get this.

Originally Posted by moodyred01

I would tell them if they research they'll find that in almost all outbreaks of disease with available vaccines the vast majority of children were those that were vaccinated. If anything they DO put your child at risk.

Exactly.

[dancingmommyof2]

Why is it hard to find Chicken Pox these days?

I've been looking/waiting for a Chicken Pox party, and none have come along... How can I get my kids immune before they're adults????

Diane

Originally Posted by paquerette

Meh. If anything, they're putting my children at risk. It's hard enough to find chicken pox these days, let alone measles and mumps and rubella.

[greenthumb3]

Originally Posted by Danielle13

does anyone have any information on herd immunity and how it doesn't work?

Someone on this forum shared this site, and I found it very informative without so much bias.

For the Good of the Herd

from the Comments toward the bottom was written this:


"I have a few more comments about herd immunity. I think this is an important subject, especially because the media vilifies vaccination “exemptors” and people who don’t understand the facts just go along with that vilification. With regard to the Time magazine article (6/2/08): the article states that 77% of all US kindergartners are completely up-to-date on their vaccines and that 2-3% of them have been legally exempted. It dismisses the remaining 20% of the kindergarten population as “most of the remaining children are missing just a few shots”. Of course there are no citations as to where they got that information or how it was verified. I would imagine that the 20% of the population that is partially vaccinated would have a much larger impact on herd immunity than 2-3% of the population that is exempt (and let’s not forget than many exemptors choose selective vaccination, so they are not completely unvaccinated). My point is this: if we’re going to criticize one group (exemptors) for a breach of moral obligation with regard to herd immunity, what about the moral obligation of 1) the 20% that is partially vaccinated and 2) the promoters of vaccination policy who have effectively eliminated the life long natural immunity acquired from contracting disease in favor of temporary vaccine-induced immunity, thereby creating new groups of higher risk “susceptibles” including infants and the elderly? (See above comment with regard to American Journal of Epidemiology article that documents the medical community was aware of this effect of vaccination at least 25 years ago). I don’t understand why the blame and criticism is reserved only for exemptors, except that it is easier to point the finger at the one group that is outspoken about their beliefs."

[neostudded]

Originally Posted by Barbie64g

I just cant get over how brainwashed people have become.

I agree