DH Showers with dsd.. Is this OK? - Page 6

[CherryBomb]

But we don't live in these other cultures, we live in THIS culture. And in THIS culture, men showering with their 10 year old daughter's is not considered appropriate, so while there certainly might not be anything else going on, it shouldn't be surprising that it sends up red flags.

Getting "caught in a rainstorm" and then showering together, in THIS culture, sounds like something LOVERS do, not fathers and daughters.

I don't know about your showers, but mine is a pretty tight squeeze with more than one person in it. I don't see that as the same at all as a gyms shower, where you have more personal space.

I would ask other questions, like, was the door locked? Did the SM know that they were going up to do this, or did she come upon it unexpectedly? "She wanted it, I felt uncomfortable doing it" like it or not, is a pretty common defense when abusers get caught. Does the child's mother know they shower together? If he's always been open about showering with his daughter and her mother knows and it's just not an issue in their family, then while I'm personally seriously freaked out by it, I'd be a lot less concerned that something insidious is going on.

[polishprinsezz]

my uncle bathed with his teenage sons. i was a teen myself at the time and thought nothing of it. now as an adult i know this wasnt normal or healthy behavior. my uncle molested his children and they all now have problems as adults. my oldest cousin has been caught fondling young girls, i dont trust my middle cousin and my youngest cousin is facing a sexual identity crisis. he has never had a girlfriend.he has only one guy "buddy" but still cannot admit his sexual preference as it is ingrained in his mind that it is dirty or nasty to be gay. as adults it is our job to keep our children protected and safe. if this situation doesnt feel right it is the parents duty to go with their gut feeling and protect their child. nudity shouldnt be as big of a deal as it is but the simple fact is there are preditors out there waiting to hurt children. nudity isnt openly accepted in our culture. i would be very concerned about this in almost any situation.

[Xoe]

Originally Posted by choli

So now a failed marriage is a red flag for pedophiles? Does this refer to women as well or just men?

yup...a failed marriage actually is a red flag for pedophiles. you'd be surprised at the number of pedophiles seek out relationships with single women who have young daughters (and sometimes boys. ) it gives them easy, 24 hour access to children that they can "groom" into accepting their sexual advances, without thinking anything is abnormal, or without telling anyone. and getting a young, unrelated girl to accept being alone and naked in a confined space seems like "grooming" to me. next, you night hear "why would i tell anyone he touched me? there's nothing wrong with touching people, is there?" and it can go on from there. I'm happy to hear that so many of you were nude around your parents, and nothing went wrong. but frankly, in the u.s., lets be honest-- we have a serious problem with pedophilia. sure, you might have escaped it in your childhood. but with one in four girls reporting being molested in the u.s., would you really want to roll the dice and gamble with your kid showering with a man who is not her father?

Revised to add-- But now, noting that the girl is the biological daughter, i still say there's a risk. family dynamics often change when a girl no longer has her biological mother in the household-- and not in the girl's favor. biological fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins and grandfathers do rape rape related girls. family members provide easy access for exercising inappropriate sexual desires. perhaps this dad's reason for showering with his daughter was innocent-- but I just don't get why this guy felt the need to shower with his daughter. I...just...can't...figure out why he couldn't wait. Does he need to conserve water or something???

[PassionateWriter]

Originally Posted by MayBaby2007

I'd call CPS in a heartbeat. It's not normal. Nobody will ever change my mind or make me feel bad for my convictions. Just. Not. Normal.

ok. well, im glad we don't live near each other. i would fear you calling CPS on me being with my children. i dont want to make you feel bad about your "convictions"...just offering that there are other ways of looking at nudity that are not so prudish and paranoid. I consider my children to be very much aware of their bodies and very much aware that no one else (even a parent) shoudl touch them.

Originally Posted by MadameXCupcake

DH was raped by a woman as a young child.

i am sooo sorry.

Originally Posted by bente

How does being naked elevate the risk of anything?

Where I live nudity is a non-issue in families. Children are nude on the beach - on warm days you will see children undressing down to their undies og nude in the city parks.

IMHO it doesnt. its the person who has ill intentions that is the problem, not the nudity. my kids and i are nude around each other daily and they are NEVER in any jeopardy of being molested by me. I would venture to say they are less likely to be molested by anyone else b/c we talk about our bodies, what they are for, how it is not appropriate for them to be touched in their genitals or any other area that makes it uncomfortable by another adult (including hugs). They know the names of their body parts....and are pretty comfortable around each other and me. One of the biggest problems with children being molested is also when the children do not know the proper names of their body parts and can only refer to them as "privates" or "wee wee".....it has caused many issues w/ children who have been abused.

And of course, child abuse is absolutely horrible. I just don't equate it with nudity at all.

[Xoe]

Originally Posted by PassionateWriter

.....
IMHO it doesnt. its the person who has ill intentions that is the problem, not the nudity. my kids and i are nude around each other daily and they are NEVER in any jeopardy of being molested by me. I would venture to say they are less likely to be molested by anyone else b/c we talk about our bodies, what they are for, how it is not appropriate for them to be touched in their genitals or any other area that makes it uncomfortable by another adult (including hugs). They know the names of their body parts....and are pretty comfortable around each other and me. One of the biggest problems with children being molested is also when the children do not know the proper names of their body parts and can only refer to them as "privates" or "wee wee".....it has caused many issues w/ children who have been abused.

And of course, child abuse is absolutely horrible. I just don't equate it with nudity at all.

well....I'd love to know if the op's step daughter has had all these discussions about nudity, touching, inappropriate touching, and knows all the proper names for her body parts. I'd also like to know if they all walk around nude as a family, and shower together as a family-- or was the shower the only place she'd seen her dad's genitals recently? a family that supports nudity as natural and discusses the body, privacy, and human sexuality openly is different than a family that isn't normally open about nudity-- and therefore showering with dad might be a different type of affair in different types of families. You can't assume that because you have an open lifestyle and showering together isn't a sign of a problem in your family-- that showering together isn't a sign of a problem in the next family (and vice versa.) there needs to be a constellation of things going on to make father/daughter nudity a "norm" inside a family. without those things....father/daughter nudity might simply be the beginning of a period where a father losses his bearings, and begins an inappropriate relationship with his daughter.

I'd like to add that fathers are people with a variety of stresses going on at various times in their lives. a man who might not-- under nomal circumstances-- take advantage of a girl, may change during a time of mental stress. all kinds of people find themselves doing that which they would not do.

xoe

[tiffani]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

But we don't live in these other cultures, we live in THIS culture. And in THIS culture, men showering with their 10 year old daughter's is not considered appropriate

according to who? judging by reading the responses here, it's considered entirely appropriate in many families, and inappropriate in many others.

I'm shocked and saddened by the families who are insisting that their kids remain clothed at home before the child decides for themselves that they want privacy. We always bathed with our kids when they were babies, and continued to do so until they could bathe on their own, and then even after that they'd sometimes crawl in the tub with dad or myself. yes, they tried to grab certain body parts that floated, but why not just say "that's my penis, and it's not for you to touch" who cares if kids are curious, or ask questions, or try to touch you -- you just explain that parents and kids don't touch each others' genitals, and nobody is allowed to touch anyone's genitals unless they are given permission. why the shame and secrecy?

to the op (if you're still here...) I don't think there is anything wrong with what happened, but if it gives you a weird feeling, then maybe you can talk with your dh about it a bit more. I'm assuming that they jumped into the shower because they were cold and wanted to warm up, they were having fun together and he didn't think anything of it until maybe he got in there and THEN thought that maybe she was getting a bit too old for him to feel comfortable. maybe she's starting to develop breasts or pubic hair or something, and it made him feel like it was time for more modesty, whether she wanted it or not. that's ok too, but not a requirement of decent behavior.

Personally I agree with the pp who asked why a father/daughter relationship would change as the child got older -- we all shower at the pool together (dh, me, our almost 7 yo boy and almost 9 yo girl) and will continue to do so until the kids want their own changing rooms for privacy. If they never care, then why would we? We wouldn't suddenly lust after our own children, regardless of their age, nor would they suddenly lust after us. I understand that there are sexual predators in the world, but that doesn't mean that every dad who is comfortable being naked around his kids is a sexual predator. And how sad is it that there are moms who will NEVER trust their partners, just because of the statistics?? I don't care how stressed out my dh was, he would NEVER be inappropriate with our kids, or any other kids -- that sounds like a sad excuse to me...

We need a little more europe here in north america!!!

[choli]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

But we don't live in these other cultures, we live in THIS culture. And in THIS culture, men showering with their 10 year old daughter's is not considered appropriate, so while there certainly might not be anything else going on, it shouldn't be surprising that it sends up red flags.

Getting "caught in a rainstorm" and then showering together, in THIS culture, sounds like something LOVERS do, not fathers and daughters.

I don't know about your showers, but mine is a pretty tight squeeze with more than one person in it. I don't see that as the same at all as a gyms shower, where you have more personal space.

I would ask other questions, like, was the door locked? Did the SM know that they were going up to do this, or did she come upon it unexpectedly? "She wanted it, I felt uncomfortable doing it" like it or not, is a pretty common defense when abusers get caught. Does the child's mother know they shower together? If he's always been open about showering with his daughter and her mother knows and it's just not an issue in their family, then while I'm personally seriously freaked out by it, I'd be a lot less concerned that something insidious is going on.

This is the internet, not the US. Your particular culture does not supersede all other cultures of worldwide internet users.

[PassionateWriter]

Originally Posted by Xoe

a family that supports nudity as natural and discusses the body, privacy, and human sexuality openly is different than a family that isn't normally open about nudity-- and therefore showering with dad might be a different type of affair in different types of families. You can't assume that because you have an open lifestyle and showering together isn't a sign of a problem in your family-- that showering together isn't a sign of a problem in the next family (and vice versa.)

i agree with you about that. i just dont think we shoudl ASSume either way...we arent in the home, know the family, etc. etc. i don't assume there is or isn't a problem in this family....I just don't think it necessitates a call to CPS.

Originally Posted by tiffani

I'm shocked and saddened by the families who are insisting that their kids remain clothed at home before the child decides for themselves that they want privacy.

why the shame and secrecy?

I don't care how stressed out my dh was, he would NEVER be inappropriate with our kids, or any other kids -- that sounds like a sad excuse to me...

yeh, i have been plenty stressed (while working full time at a very demanding job 100 plus hours per week with 2 kids) and ive never fallen prey to sexual molestation..i don't know why men would be more susceptible to that.

[Xoe]

Originally Posted by PassionateWriter

i agree with you about that. i just dont think we shoudl ASSume either way...we arent in the home, know the family, etc. etc. i don't assume there is or isn't a problem in this family....I just don't think it necessitates a call to CPS.

yeah, perhaps we shouldn't ASSume. But the OP had something go off in her head that made her feel this might not be appropriate- so she posted here. The father also admitted he no longer felt that showering with his daughter was appropriate. I wonder why??? Whatever the case, I like to go with the intuition or gut feelings of the person who is involved with a situation IRL. If the op and her husband feel something might not be right-- I'm going to wager my bet with what I know from my life and statistics, and then combine it with what the OP's gut says. You can call my oppinions ASSumptions if you like. But when it comes to the molestation of young girls, I'd rather be called an A$$ and then be found wrong, rather than be called open-minded and be found right. Child molestation is just something I can't abide by. We are simply not careful enough in this country. And once a child is violated, well-- you can't un-ring a bell, and you can't undo child rape either.

Originally Posted by PassionateWriter

yeh, i have been plenty stressed (while working full time at a very demanding job 100 plus hours per week with 2 kids) and ive never fallen prey to sexual molestation..i don't know why men would be more susceptible to that.

I'm not talking a grown woman falling prey to child molestation. I'm talking children falling prey to abuse by adults when adults are stressed. And without going into the specifics, the type of stress I'm talking about is not the type of stress you get from working hard. It's more the type of stress some people feel from failing, losing out, losing jobs, losing money, feeling inadequate or threatened, feeling berrated and less-than, blows to their ego, blows to one's sense of self or man-hood (woman-hood.) the type of stuff that eventually might be a reason for someone to need mental health treatment or that might cause one to turn to substance abuse. sometimes people marry people they don't know well. sometimes people marry people who change over time-- for one reason or another. I'm married almost 20 years to a man I've known and trusted since I was 14-15 years old. Perhaps I'm not the oldest woman on this board, or the longest married-- but believe me when I say that i've heard newly weds tell me that their spouse is the best man on earth, and they know this to be true through and through....then five years later the story is very different. More than 50% of americans wouldn't marry their spouse if they had known at the alter what they now know today-- so please don't tell me the "i know my spouse" defense is supposed to be a good enough protection for our children. Many Americans don't know their spouses well enough to make a marriage last for 5 years. "And I thought I knew him" will be words of cold comfort if anything sad happens to the daughter. But remember-- we are all tossing ideas around here. Hopefully, the OP's daughter will be fine. But because some of us wrote down how we felt about this subject, some other girl-- some 1 in 4 girl, will have a mom or step-mom who will recognize an inappropriate situation, will listen to her gut, and will be spared the devistation of being molested because of what someone here said.

xoe

[tiffani]

but you see, the problem we have is not with dads taking showers with their daughters, it's all the f~ed up messaging we have in our society about sexuality, coupled with whatever it is that creates a pedophile, and people not being willing to speak up when they are being violated, or someone they care about is being violated. we are too afraid to step over the boundaries of politeness, and I think that prudishness contributes heavily to that problem.

any kind of shame, including "being careful" is telling a child not to listen to their inner voice -- it's making them think that they should feel shame/privateness about their bodies in situations where they don't need to, which, I think, is just confusing and discredits their own boundaries. why create boundaries when they don't need to be there? to me, that just fuzzes up the essence of boundaries -- kids need to be able to be free and comfortable with their family to know what that feels like, so if someone makes them feel "off" (including someone in their family) they will know right away that there is a problem. If we just insist on a false modesty, what happens when they WANT to get butt nekkid with someone -- how do they trust their own instincts when they've been told all along that their instincts are not to be trusted??? How do they step up and say NO when they feel off, or to tell someone if someone is abusing them, when they've never had the opportunity to feel truly well and free without shame?

sorry I'm not more clear here, I'm tired.... g'nite!

[GoBecGo]

Reading these posts, if i were a man in america i'd be castrated ASAP to avoid the pointing finger! Paedophiles are people. Right? I'm not talking morally, i'm talking literally. So they will do what people do.

Yes, most paedophiles are men. NOT most MEN are paedophiles. Many paedophiles seek out work with children. NOT most people who work with children are paedophiles. SOme paedophiles abuse their own kids, NOT all parents abuse their kids. Most paedophiles have failed relationships. PRACTICALLY EVERYONE DOES! These random casual statistical relationships are doing NOTHING to prevent child abuse and are making everyone crazy about it all. 100% of people who die were breathing immediately beforehand - quick, everyone stop breathing! It kills you!

Protecting your child from the depraved parts of society isn't so simple as telling them to cover up and not mention their privates! My DD grabbing at mine or her dad's genitals is the PERFECT opportunity to say "yes, that's mama's vagina/dada's penis, we don't touch one anothers genitals sweetie". She will never remember being taught the lesson (she's only 2) but by the time she's old enough to be in danger (she is currently always either with myself or her father) she will know very well what is ok and what is not. Kids are curious. If you tell them not to touch or show or talk about their own genitals and never let them see your own you are missing a million SAFE opportunities for them to learn. If you think peadophiles don't know about and EXPLOIT this natural curiousity, so often crushed by reluctant parents who don't want to talk about "those things" you really ARE mad!

Studies done where convicted paedophiles were asked how they selected victims show that most will go for children who don't know the proper names for their genitals (a child who can shout in a park or a court "you're not allowed to touch my VAGINA" is a poor target for grooming and a giant liability, plus there can be no little "lessons" about how wonderful genitals can be, because the kid already knows and will think it's weird to be told in that context), children with low self-esteem and a strong sense of shame (because they don't LIKE feeling the shame and the paedophile can relieve them of it by telling them how beautiful/natural/wonderful their body is), children who are curious about genitals and haven't explored their curiousity with their parents (i.e. haven't been allowed to talk about it. A child who has never seen a penis is not going to react like a child who has seen dada's in the shower and knows that if you're not in the shower it is NOT OK to have your penis out!), children who lack confidence when talking to adults ("Seen and not heard" kids are less likely to tell and more likely to really deeply value the attention of the paedophile) and children who don't have many peer-age friends (again because they will value the contact enough to put up with the abuse).

Making NUDITY into the reason children get abused actually HELPS paedophiles. How many rapes are overturned because of how a woman is dressed? That's revolting - NOTHING gives someone the right to rape, NOTHING. There was a case in America several years ago where an 18 year old was not convicted after raping an 8 year old girl (they found his DNA inside her vagina and anus) because she had on RED panties and had "inflamed his passion". They had minnie mouse on them. But he got let off because the general consensus is that how you dress or don't dress can ACTUALLY give PERMISSION for someone to abuse, assault or rape you. Stand up for your little girls. Their bodies are not a liability, the puritanical legal system and general societal norms that support it are.

[tiffani]

awesome post, gobecgo!!

I have an acquaintance whose family is VERY modest. A little girl in the family told her mom that her step-grandpa had touched her underwear. the mom flipped out, accused, etc, and something very well may have been untoward... but, this little girl had been seriously warned about nudity and privacy, and touching and all the rest, but not in clear, empowering language that she could be clear about -- so maybe the grandpa did touch her underwear, in a totally innocent way (she was very little, still needing help with bathroom, bathing, etc) and she thought that was a grievous sin needing confessing -- nobody will ever know, because this family does not talk about body parts in clear, actual terms, and they are so paranoid about abuse that they've constructed all these arbitrary rules for their very young children that essentially strip the child of their ability to trust their own gut about when it's ok to be naked, when it's ok for people to touch whatever part of their bodies, etc.

It's so harmful to be so paranoid about every male around you -- it clouds the issue of how to listen to your gut instinct, how to tell the difference between your grandpa brushing the sides of your underwear when they're helping you get dressed, and abuse. Not to mention that when you talk about it with paranoia and shame about nudity (and if you're asking them to cover up before they naturally want privacy, you're shaming them about their bodies, in however small a way) it makes them far more reluctant to speak up when something does happen.

I'm not saying nothing happened with this little girl, but nobody will ever really know unless she (now she's much older) breaks down those family taboos about talking about these things -- and that's so hard for a child to do!!!

Nudity is a natural, beautiful thing -- if YOU don't want to be naked around your kids, that's fine, but in my opinion, kids should be able to run nekkid and free until they are no longer comfortable doing so. In the event that they are still comfortable at the onset of puberty, you can have a gentle talk about it.

There is a public waterpark near us that has a sign reading "no nudies" which makes me so sad. they say it's to deter pedophiles, but I don't think pedophiles are all that deterred by the tiny little bikinis that are out there for young girls, which in my mind are worse than nudity.

[PikkuMyy]

Just popping in to mention that this was the OP's first post on MDC, a rather controversial one, which seems to have sparked off quite a heated discussion, though the OP said thanks on the first page and has not been back since, nor has she posted anywhere else on MDC.

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

100% of people who die were breathing immediately beforehand - quick, everyone stop breathing! It kills you!

Ok, that line made me crack up.

The whole rest of your post was awesome though. Well stated.

[mamamaris]

GoBecGo

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by choli

This is the internet, not the US. Your particular culture does not supersede all other cultures of worldwide internet users.

You can get as snarky and condescending as you'd like, but the majority of posters here appear to be from Western countries, where nudity is considered more private than in other parts of the world. So, once again, it shouldn't be some huge shock that some people posting would be uncomfortable with it.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

You can get as snarky and condescending as you'd like, but the majority of posters here appear to be from Western countries, where nudity is considered more private than in other parts of the world. So, once again, it shouldn't be some huge shock that some people posting would be uncomfortable with it.

The OP didn't state their location.

Are we to think that American dada's are sex crazed lunatics who, at the slightest glimpse of flesh, will forget that their child is their child, whereas, say Dutch, dada's can remember their kids are there own even when said kids have passed through puberty? If that's what living in a "culture" that thinks nudity should be private does to a person then i'll pass thanks!

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

The OP didn't state their location.

Are we to think that American dada's are sex crazed lunatics who, at the slightest glimpse of flesh, will forget that their child is their child, whereas, say Dutch, dada's can remember their kids are there own even when said kids have passed through puberty? If that's what living in a "culture" that thinks nudity should be private does to a person then i'll pass thanks!

I wasn't talking about the OP, I'm talking about the commenters and the board in general. Of course I could be wrong, but it generally seems that most (but certainly not all) posters are from the US and Canada, where culture norms surrounding nudity are more "prudish" than others, so, once again, it's just shouldn't be shocking that some would find it odd that a father would shower with his 10 year old daughter. Where I live people are pretty conservative about nudity, it wouldn't be considered normal around here, it's certainly not normal in my particular family unit, so if I caught my dh showering after "getting caught in the rain" with our 10 year old daughter, it would most certainly not be okay.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that men in Western cultures can't "handle" seeing a child naked, but that certain actions in one culture will send up red flags while they won't in others.

[choli]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

I wasn't talking about the OP, I'm talking about the commenters and the board in general. Of course I could be wrong, but it generally seems that most (but certainly not all) posters are from the US and Canada, where culture norms surrounding nudity are more "prudish" than others, so, once again, it's just shouldn't be shocking that some would find it odd that a father would shower with his 10 year old daughter. Where I live people are pretty conservative about nudity, it wouldn't be considered normal around here, it's certainly not normal in my particular family unit, so if I caught my dh showering after "getting caught in the rain" with our 10 year old daughter, it would most certainly not be okay.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that men in Western cultures can't "handle" seeing a child naked, but that certain actions in one culture will send up red flags while they won't in others.

And those red flags can be erroneous due to cultural indoctrination.

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by choli

And those red flags can be erroneous due to cultural indoctrination.

Yep. I never said otherwise.