New Posts  All Forums:
 

Thanks! All set. :)

post #1 of 44
6/15/08 at 1:48pm
Thread Starter 
ETA-- For anyone coming in late, I'm good. I know folks dont always read through, so I want to say I have the info I need to make a decsion. I thank you all.


We are planning titres first just in case. Although it looks like the info from that isn't always reliable.

Here's a NYT articlle about recent outbreaks. It's not a ton of cases, but it can spread quickly and be a problem for older kids/young adults It looks like there was only one case of a fully vax'd person getting it. We know it's not 100% effective for all, so it doesn't surprise me.

Tell me why or why not measles outbreaks would or wouldn't concern you if you have teens who are out in the world. We already do flax seed oil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/02/he...tml?ref=health

You may also like:

Sitting or Squatting: What's Really Best in the Bathroom?
There Is Not Always a "Fix" For the Difficult Child
10 Things You Don't Need For a New Baby
post #2 of 44
6/15/08 at 1:56pm
I am considering the MMR for my unvaxed ds when he's 11 or 12. I'm not worried about him getting measles now (5yo), but I would be concerned about it in a teen or adult. Like you, I'd check titres first. Although I'm not sure how reliable that really is.
post #3 of 44
6/15/08 at 1:57pm
We have and will do the MMR with our kids; they are still very far from teenage years but I thought I would give my take anyway.

Do I FEAR measles? no. I have written about this in the past. I feel fear isn't the right word. I do not fear rip tides while swimming in the ocean; however I know the 'rules' of getting out of them. But I don't find myself cautiously worrying or constantly thinking about them while out there.

The outbreaks don't really concern me as much as they give more support to the reasons we do the vaccine. (to others they will be support to why they DONT)

So, anyway....we do the MMR. Measles is one reason. I feel the measles vax is a good idea for our family because the vaccine is highly effective and the disease is highly infectious....we travel and are around travelers a lot, and, as the recent outbreaks show us, measles can be brought here and spread. We feel there are dangerous side effects which are rare but present. We don't believe the MMR is linked to autism; we researched this in depth and see no connection.

So, we are faced with that fact that we can prevent measles easily and with good confidence by getting the vaccine. we have decided, for our family, this is a good idea. So we do it.
post #4 of 44
6/15/08 at 2:01pm
Thread Starter 
We are leaning 99.99%. buit as always, one worries. I mostly want to come clean about it. lol I have said I didn't vax little children, so I guess I want to be open about this. I know as a family our health has benefitted from a society where the children have not been exposed to serious diseases, where we have clean water and good food etc.

ETA- we are around travelors lots as well. We live in a tourist area, plus our friends travel.
post #5 of 44
6/15/08 at 2:27pm
I am agonizing over this decision right now with my 20 month old dd. She has had some health issues which we don't fully understand yet. Seizure like episodes on several occasions (4 months, 9 months & 14 months) and some food allergies. She has not received ANY vaccinations because I have honestly just been too scared of what would happen to her.

Now we have a measles outbreak in the county right next to us. Ten people confirmed as of last week. We homeschool and aren't out in the mix, but I am still so worried. I had my pedi order the single measles vax, but I know that it might not be any safer for my dd. But what is worse? Her catching the measles or her reaction to the vax?? I still feel like something is going to happen to her if I vax. I am petrified.

I am also scared of all these outbreaks. What if she does get the measles? Of course the pedi is all for the vax. I don't know what to do at this point. I change my mind every five minutes. I just don't want anything to happen to my dd.
post #6 of 44
6/15/08 at 4:42pm
I had measles when I was 13; I don't remember it being any big deal, just a fever and some spots, really. Everything I've seen from Mendelsohn, Tenpenny, etc leaves me feeling like measles is nothing to fear unless you're already immunocompromised or live in conditions of abject poverty; so, living in a developed nation and having access to clean water and fresh food, I don't see any reason to fear the disease.

Mendelsohn, in fact, says that the risks of the vaccine far outweigh the risks of the disease. From How to Raise a Healthy Child: "I would consider the risks associated with measles vaccine unacceptable even if there were convincing evidence that the vaccine works. There isn't." Also from the same book, he says that according to the WHO, the chances are about 15 times greater that measles will be contracted by those who have been vaccinated for it than by those who haven't.
post #7 of 44
6/15/08 at 5:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heidi_m View Post
[
Mendelsohn, in fact, says that the risks of the vaccine far outweigh the risks of the disease. From How to Raise a Healthy Child: "I would consider the risks associated with measles vaccine unacceptable even if there were convincing evidence that the vaccine works. There isn't." Also from the same book, he says that according to the WHO, the chances are about 15 times greater that measles will be contracted by those who have been vaccinated for it than by those who haven't.[/COLOR][/FONT]
I have that book, and it's really old, so I am concerned about outdated statistics as I make 21st century decisions about my teens. Mendelsohn died in 1988 or 1989 or something, before my first child was born.

I don't find anywhere on the WHO website that gives the 15 > number, either. Anyone?

I admt that one the reasons this one scares me is becuase one of my old friends became alomst totally deaf when she got measles as an older kid. She was your basic upper middle class healthy child.

Yet I am feeling like the disease at this age is worse than the vax itself.
post #8 of 44
6/15/08 at 5:37pm
Sorry if this is a repeat, I don't have time to read all the replies - but the MMR vaccine could cause life long rheumatism. I would not go that route.

From what I've read, measles is not that dangerous for teens. And for sure not for kids that are still younger.
post #9 of 44
6/15/08 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
I have that book, and it's really old, so I am concerned about outdated statistics as I make 21st century decisions about my teens. Mendelsohn died in 1988 or 1989 or something, before my first child was born.

I don't find anywhere on the WHO website that gives the 15 > number, either. Anyone?

I admt that one the reasons this one scares me is becuase one of my old friends became alomst totally deaf when she got measles as an older kid. She was your basic upper middle class healthy child. Interestingly, she married an an MD who was also an accupunturist and they didn't vax their own kids.

Yet I am feeling like the disease at this age is worse than the vax itself.
Yes, that book is "old" and the stats are obviously outdated, but a lot of the information still applies. That book is a treasure, regardless of it's age.

Did you friend receive treatment for the measles back in the day? Sometimes the treatment(s) were as bad or worse than the diseases.
post #10 of 44
6/15/08 at 6:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidspiration View Post
Yes, that book is "old" and the stats are obviously outdated, but a lot of the information still applies. That book is a treasure, regardless of it's age.

Did you friend receive treatment for the measles back in the day? Sometimes the treatment(s) were as bad or worse than the diseases.
(Edited for TMI) They didn't do any conventional meds. Maybe if they had? Do you know what treatments would be bad? This would have been in the 1970's.

I am not saying the book is without any value. But it doesn't offer any current stats for my current needs.
post #11 of 44
6/15/08 at 6:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti View Post
Sorry if this is a repeat, I don't have time to read all the replies - but the MMR vaccine could cause life long rheumatism. I would not go that route.

From what I've read, measles is not that dangerous for teens. And for sure not for kids that are still younger.
Where is this reading? I would like to read it. And what does 'not that dangerous' mean?
post #12 of 44
6/15/08 at 6:20pm
Thread Starter 
I
post #13 of 44
6/15/08 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
(Edited for TMI) They didn't do any conventional meds. Maybe if they had? Do you know what treatments would be bad? This would have been in the 1970's.

I am not saying the book is without any value. But it doesn't offer any current stats for my current needs.
Depends upon what they might have given. Did she have a typical case, or any other factors like a secondary bacterial infection that they may have treated with antibiotics? Did they give her any antipyretics to bring down the fever? This is where it becomes really important to get the full case history and any other factors that might have contributed to your friend's hearing loss.

Also...was she vaxed for it? That's a crucial bit of info.
post #14 of 44
6/15/08 at 6:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidspiration View Post
treated with antibiotics? Did they give her any antipyretics to bring down the fever? This is where it becomes really important to get the full case history and any other factors that might have contributed to your friend's hearing loss.

Also...was she vaxed for it? That's a crucial bit of info.
She was not vax'd, as she had an unconventional family. I hate to keep talking about it, I haven't even asked her if I could. She was a healthy upper (very upper) middle class child, she had access to good food etc. She was an unvax'd healthy person who a bad outcome after contracting measles. Maybe her parents did everything right, maybe they did something not quite right. Maybe their timing was off for whatever they did.

Sometimes bad things happen, which is one of my concerns in vaxing, and in not vaxing older children for measles. I was willing to take certain risks when the children were smaller that no longer seem appropraite for older kids.
post #15 of 44
6/15/08 at 7:25pm
There are several women that have posted on this board that have developed rheumatoid arthritis from post-partum MMRs and it has been implicated in juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. The risk of the vaccines does not end with early childhood.

Here is the information on the Switzerland Measles outbreak:

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ew/2007/070726.asp

483 cases total for November 2006- July 2007.


Quote:
Six percent of the 445 cases for whom a detailed questionnaire had been submitted were vaccinated against measles (18 with one dose and nine with two doses), 87% were unvaccinated, and the vaccination status of the remaining 7% was unknown. There were 43 cases (10%) requiring hospitalization. Among 445 cases for whom information about complications was available, four cases were reported with encephalitis (1%), all among children, 29 cases with pneumonia (7%, median age 10 years), and 31 cases with otitis media [earache](7%). No deaths were reported.
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/edit...8/080221_1.asp
Switzerland Measles Outbreak - From Nov 2006 to Feb 2008:

"1405 cases
1319 cases for which detailed information available**

Hospitalizations** 104 -- 7.9%
Pneumonia** 63 -- 4.8%
Otitis Media (ear aches)** 62 -- 4.7%
Encephalitis** 6 -- 0.5%

The proportion of vaccinated patients has been low for all ages (Figure 4). There were 104 cases (8% of 1,319 cases for whom information about hospitalisation and complications were available) who required hospitalisation. Six cases were reported with encephalitis or suspicion of encephalitis (0.5%), all among children. No deaths have been reported." The average age is eleven.[/quote]

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/table.htm
III. Measles, mumps and rubella virus-containing vaccines in any combination (e.g., MMR, MR, M, R)
A. Anaphylaxis or anaphylactic shock 1
0-4 hours
B. Encephalopathy (or encephalitis) 2 5-15 days C. Any acute complication or sequela (including death) of above events 4 Not applicable
post #16 of 44
6/15/08 at 8:18pm
Thread Starter 
Where can I find information the the percentage of people who get the MMR vax as older children or adults and contract RA? I've been looking for such numbers and I can't find anything.

The Swiss findings are profound. That's a significant percentage of folks with complications. I'd like to weigh that against MMR -caused RA stats.
post #17 of 44
6/15/08 at 8:30pm
According to the WHO 2006 Measles Bulletin , the diagnosis of measles is very unreliable unless it is done using blood work, and the problem is not limited to Africa. So, to begin with, I think measles is probably over-reported. There is no question, however, that it can be a very serious disease, but it HAS to find that systemic weakness in order for this to be the case - how else could it be that it is so rarely serious for so many? Even wealthy people can have nutrient deficiencies and not know it - in diagnosing scurvy doctors found that people could appear quite hale and healthy and be on death's door from malnutrition.

Granted, your children could be among the few that are susceptible. As long as you are aware of what their specific nutritional needs are, and keep the C and A up, you are reducing that susceptibility in practice.

As for traveling, if you find that your lifestyle is MORE likely to expose you to measles, then your kids are more likely to have wild-type exposure on a regular basis!
post #18 of 44
6/15/08 at 8:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallacesmum View Post
According to the WHO 2006 Measles Bulletin , the diagnosis of measles is very unreliable unless it is done using blood work, and the problem is not limited to Africa. So, to begin with, I think measles is probably over-reported. There is no question, however, that it can be a very serious disease, but it HAS to find that systemic weakness in order for this to be the case - how else could it be that it is so rarely serious for so many?

What makes you think measles is over reported? I get that it's hard to track measles in Africa, but we are not facing the same challenges about that here in the US

It seems to be serious in the people who contract it. The Swiss findings (above) seem significant to me.
post #19 of 44
6/15/08 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
It seems to be serious in the people who contract it. The Swiss findings (above) seem significant to me.
Your conclusion from the Swiss stats is that it is serious in the people who contract it? That is not usually the reaction that posting gets. Yes, some of the one thousand three hundred and nineteen cases with reported complications were serious complications, but that seems to me to be small in comparison with the size of the outbreak.

There were one thousand, four hundred and five cases. The stats on complications were from one thousand, three hundred and nineteen cases.

104 people out of one thousand, three hundred and nineteen cases were hospitalized. We don't know anything about these people; their age (they could all be infants and elderly), their state of health, what treatment they had received... I expect that these hospitalizations overlap with some of the other complications like Pneumonia (63) and Encephalitis (6). Then there are the 62 people with ear aches...

I think measles is under reported in the US. How can a Dr diagnose it if he believe that the fever and rash you developed 11 days post vaccination "is just some virus" or that "since you had the MMR it can't be measles; it must just be some random virus."
post #20 of 44
6/15/08 at 9:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
What makes you think measles is over reported?
Isn't that in that link, that the WHO needs to open clinics everywhere because the diagnoses are all wrong? I guess I need to read it again.

Quote:
From January – December 2005, 2717 cases (22% of all tested serologically) have been lab
confirmed and 540 cases have been confirmed by epidemiologic linkage, bringing the total
number of confirmed measles cases to 3257. Fifteen of the 29 countries (52%) have less than
10% of their investigated cases becoming serologically positive for measles. Cameroon, Benin,
Burkina Faso, Niger, Angola and South Africa have had more than 30% lab confirmed measles
cases, mainly as a result of outbreaks. The rate of measles confirmed cases for the Region is 0.7
per 100,000 population under case based surveillance. The rate ranges from 0 for most countries
to 3.3 per 100,000 in Cameroon. Seventeen of the 29 countries (59%) have confirmed measles
incidence rates below 0.5 per 100,000 population. (See figure 1)

You may also like:

Sitting or Squatting: What's Really Best in the Bathroom?
There Is Not Always a "Fix" For the Difficult Child
10 Things You Don't Need For a New Baby