Do you buy into the gifted label? - Page 2

[sharr610]

Oh! And also, all the kids in the gifted program were from the wealthiest families in the area. I think there was one kid from a lower income family...it just smacked of something wrong. Perhaps this has changed...

[lovbeingamommy]

Originally Posted by sharr610

May be slightly off tangent here, but I've always had some issues with the term gifted. My reasons are that I was labeled gifted in school and we got to do really cool stuff like huge independent projects on things that interested us and tons of creative based learning. Overall, I've always felt it was a curriculum that ALL kids would have benefitted from(granted I have no educational background, so perhaps there is something I'm missing) and thought it was really silly it was being saved for certain kids who scored well on some tests.

: I been watching this thread all day as the posts continue to quickly increase. WOW, this does seem to be a hot topic!! However, this post convinced me I need to throw my : out there and get some feedback.

sharr610 you are absolutely RIGHT. ALL students should be offered the benefit of independent study based on their interests and abilities. This shouldn't be reserved for just the gifted. The strategies and thinking skills that gifted students are exposed to through indep. study are good for ALL students. As an administrator, this is one area that I am very passionate about.

[Needle in the Hay]

I think it's a public school (or similar type school) thing, for the most part. Your DN is probably bright and ahead of most in his class. Put him in the G&T program and it keeps his parents happy, hopefully his needs are better met and maybe the school benefits by keeping a few kids who would have been otherwise sent to private school or homeschooled.

It doesn't mean anything as far as your DD is concerned as she is not in that same environment. You are right when you say it's something your DN is doing at his school. Let yourself be genuinely happy for him (as it sounds like you want to be you are just worried about your DD) and you can let your DD know that it's a good thing for DN so he's not bored at school and that her school doesn't do that because...(here you can say a few great things about her Montessori school).

ETA: I don't mean to say that your DN isn't gifted (how would I know?), or that giftedness doesn't exist.

[NoHiddenFees]

Originally Posted by lovbeingamommy

ALL students should be offered the benefit of independent study based on their interests and abilities. This shouldn't be reserved for just the gifted. The strategies and thinking skills that gifted students are exposed to through indep. study are good for ALL students. As an administrator, this is one area that I am very passionate about.

Absolutely, but conversely too often pullout programs with "cool" projects masquerade as a meaningful gifted program or acceleration policy. It's heartbreaking hearing about kids who are reading, say, The Chronicles of Narnia at home, but who are forced to do phonics worksheets and "learn to read" along with their classmates. We homeschool and don't have to fight this battle, but my oldest would have been bored silly in a regular classroom, even with TAG pullouts. There is a highly gifted magnet school in our district, but it has a waiting list and doesn't take kids before 1st grade (and it doesn't have much in the way of P.E. or arts).

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees

Absolutely, but conversely too often pullout programs with "cool" projects masquerade as a meaningful gifted program or acceleration policy.

Yes, this. We woefully underserve the brightest minds in this country. It sickens me to know how little we provide for really smart kids - mostly under the guide that other children will feel badly or that other children deserve the same things. Parents of gifted children have to fight for quality services for their children, and it's often a losing battle. We as a nation spend 10 times more money on services with special needs than on gifted children.

When we looked at places to move, we specifically sought out a place with an excellent acceleration program for gifted children. Just to know that there's a clear policy for grade-skipping made me happy because it indicates a district where administrators understand the issues related to the education of gifted children.

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees

Absolutely, but conversely too often pullout programs with "cool" projects masquerade as a meaningful gifted program or acceleration policy. It's heartbreaking hearing about kids who are reading, say, The Chronicles of Narnia at home, but who are forced to do phonics worksheets and "learn to read" along with their classmates. We homeschool and don't have to fight this battle, but my oldest would have been bored silly in a regular classroom, even with TAG pullouts. There is a highly gifted magnet school in our district, but it has a waiting list and doesn't take kids before 1st grade (and it doesn't have much in the way of P.E. or arts).

I think that there is NOTHING wrong with this at all...

Maybe I'm coming at this from a different angle. The school I went to had being able to read as a requirement for entry into grade 1. They didn't have an IQ requirement. But you had to read to the principal as part of the 'interview'.

Then - we spent the first half of grade 1 really 'learning' phonics. Going into FAR more depth than any other phonics program I have ever seen. And at the same time - reading books and memorizing poems. (they did 1 poem each week that we recited on Fridays... This started on the second week of school).

As an adult I am constantly required to do 'learn' things that I already know how to do. I have gone to 3 training courses this year alone where I read the 'manual' before I got there - and was bored silly by the actual course. But the coping skills that I developed over my course of school are REALLY useful. Because I've learned that there is nothing wrong with 'practicing' skills I already have. There is also always something 'knew' to learn.

I just don't understand what's 'wrong' with a kid practicing their phonics skills even when they can read. Isn't that the point of school - to practice these things? You do repetitive math problems until it's second nature to add, subtract, differentiate....

[Scribe]

As someone who had (has?) this label, no, I absolutely don't buy it.

[NoHiddenFees]

Originally Posted by Kessed

I think that there is NOTHING wrong with this at all...

I've heard rumours that you go to school to learn. You think it's OK for a child to go to school for a year and learn nothing? It happens, and there are plenty of school districts with a no acceleration policy.

I just don't understand what's 'wrong' with a kid practicing their phonics skills even when they can read. Isn't that the point of school - to practice these things? You do repetitive math problems until it's second nature to add, subtract, differentiate....

Because we're not talking about a little "practice," we're talking about day after day of phonics and reading drills and it's a waste of their time. Phonics to learn spelling, great. Phonics to read the goat book in unison with their class? No. And that was just one example. What about math? My DD would have started school being able to do multiple digit addition and subtraction in her head. I hope you're not suggesting that it would have been good use of her time to do worksheet after worksheet of single digit problems to hone her skills?

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Kessed

I think that there is NOTHING wrong with this at all...

Maybe I'm coming at this from a different angle. The school I went to had being able to read as a requirement for entry into grade 1. They didn't have an IQ requirement. But you had to read to the principal as part of the 'interview'.

Then - we spent the first half of grade 1 really 'learning' phonics. Going into FAR more depth than any other phonics program I have ever seen. And at the same time - reading books and memorizing poems. (they did 1 poem each week that we recited on Fridays... This started on the second week of school).

As an adult I am constantly required to do 'learn' things that I already know how to do. I have gone to 3 training courses this year alone where I read the 'manual' before I got there - and was bored silly by the actual course. But the coping skills that I developed over my course of school are REALLY useful. Because I've learned that there is nothing wrong with 'practicing' skills I already have. There is also always something 'knew' to learn.

I just don't understand what's 'wrong' with a kid practicing their phonics skills even when they can read. Isn't that the point of school - to practice these things? You do repetitive math problems until it's second nature to add, subtract, differentiate....

Um, yeah, because kids respond to being bored by learning that it's good for them and just complying...

... or, out here in the real world, they become disruptive, discouraged, and turn off school for life.

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees

I've heard rumours that you go to school to learn. You think it's OK for a child to go to school for a year and learn nothing? It happens, and there are plenty of school districts with a no acceleration policy.

I learned 'nothing' my first year at university because the school I went to covered a bunch of university material in grade 12.

I think that there's SO MUCH MORE for a child to learn in grade 1 beyond simple academics.... If I just wanted my child to learn to read and do math - I would homeschool. I want my child to get the 'other' benefits. I want her to learn how to sit still, how to do what her 'boss' says even though she thinks it's dumb. I want her to learn skills she won't learn at home.

Because we're not talking about a little "practice," we're talking about day after day of phonics and reading drills and it's a waste of their time. Phonics to learn spelling, great. Phonics to read the goat book in unison with their class? No. And that was just one example. What about math? My DD would have started school being able to do multiple digit addition and subtraction. I hope you're not suggesting that it would have been good use of her time to do worksheet after worksheet of single digit problems to hone her skills?

I do think that's useful. The school I went to was a private school with a very long waiting list. And has historically ended up in the top 5 rankings for grade 6 and 9 in my province....

And having been through a system where repetitive practice for gifted (by grade 4 or 5 everyone was 'gifted) was what happened - I think it's incredibly useful. I saw how I did in university VS how my classmates (just as smart) who went through the public system did. In my 1st year linear algebra class the prof had to devote a lecture to teaching how to do algebraic long division?????? Seriously. Even though my classmates had "learned" to do it - they'd forgotten. Examples like that were all over the place.

To use your example of doing single digit addition. Of course there's something to it.

But here's my question for you - what's the harm? What's the worst that happens? The kid already know the answers by sight - and quickly writes them down and moves onto something else? That doesn't sound to bad.

I know how to wash dishes.... But I still have to do it everyday. I know how to write my timesheet for work - but I still have to do it at the end of the month if I want to get paid. I see incredible value for students, ESPECIALLY 'gifted' ones, to learn how to do things they find boring or that they already know how to do.

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

Um, yeah, because kids respond to being bored by learning that it's good for them and just complying...

... or, out here in the real world, they become disruptive, discouraged, and turn off school for life.

I'm thinking about 1 guy I knew who was in a public school 'gifted' program (really cool and elite program) with who really was gifted (notice no quotes this time). He was really really smart. But he didn't learn that valuable lesson.

He did great in university and found an awesome job. But then the computer game company he was working for got bought. He was unable to adapt to the new rules because he thought they were 'dumb' - and I'd agree that they were. Well - he lost his job a couple months ago. And now he and his wife and their new baby are screwed. She can't work - health issues. They need a nanny or similar to help with their baby. His mother is really sick and he's the only family so he doesn't want to move away to work in another city. They own a house that he needs a real job to pay the mortgage.

So - what would be more valuable. That he learned 'more' in school and got to learn at his own pace and wasn't constricted by having to fit into a standard classroom.... Or that he learned how to 'play the game' and still had his awesome job doing something he really loved to do?

I know what I think is more valuable.

[NoHiddenFees]

Originally Posted by Kessed

I think that there's SO MUCH MORE for a child to learn in grade 1 beyond simple academics.... If I just wanted my child to learn to read and do math - I would homeschool. I want my child to get the 'other' benefits. I want her to learn how to sit still, how to do what her 'boss' says even though she thinks it's dumb. I want her to learn skills she won't learn at home.

Your "interesting" conception of homeschooling aside (though I suggest you go over to the homeschooling board and ask about this), do you think that a child need go to school for 12 years in lock step with age mates to know how to sit still? And I guess we have different goals for our children. FWIW, the last thing I want is to bring up a child who will mindlessly follow directions.

In my 1st year linear algebra class the prof had to devote a lecture to teaching how to do algebraic long division?????? Seriously. Even though my classmates had "learned" to do it - they'd forgotten. Examples like that were all over the place.

I'm not quite following your logic here. I'm not seeing how this means children with advanced skills should be made to "relearn" lower level skills.

To use your example of doing single digit addition. Of course there's something to it.

I fail to see what.

But here's my question for you - what's the harm? What's the worst that happens? The kid already know the answers by sight - and quickly writes them down and moves onto something else? That doesn't sound to bad.

The harm? For the kids who are bored stiff and start to act out in class? Who are labeled troublemakers? Who learn that school is a place not to learn? Who have their intense desire to learn ground out of them? There couldn't possible be any harm...

[NoHiddenFees]

Originally Posted by Kessed

He was unable to adapt to the new rules because he thought they were 'dumb' - and I'd agree that they were.

This is not uncommon with highly gifted individuals.

So - what would be more valuable. That he learned 'more' in school and got to learn at his own pace and wasn't constricted by having to fit into a standard classroom.... Or that he learned how to 'play the game' and still had his awesome job doing something he really loved to do?

Ummm, both? Are learning how to work with others and self paced education mutually exclusive?

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees

Ummm, both? Are learning how to work with others and self paced education mutually exclusive?

Because it feels that many people pursue the gifted label for their child to avoid having their child learn how to fit into the classroom.

Little Jonny is bored in grade 1 - well - get him tested so that he doesn't have to do the work he finds boring...

[NoHiddenFees]

Originally Posted by Kessed

Because it feels that many people pursue the gifted label for their child to avoid having their child learn how to fit into the classroom.

Little Jonny is bored in grade 1 - well - get him tested so that he doesn't have to do the work he finds boring...

I'd prefer to give Johnny a challenge that will make him work, think, and stretch his capabilities. I'd prefer Johnny experience occasional failure and learn to learn from it and learn techniques to deal with frustration. I'd prefer Johnny not be blindsided as a young adult by the realization that some things do require work, that not everything happens by osmosis. I'd prefer Johnny not be set up to fail or give up.

[YesandNo]

I don't know how it's done now, but when I was in elementary school (late 80s), I was tested for the gifted program. And was told I "just barely" didn't make it. I remember the test, it was: "If an apple is a fruit, then a carrot is _____", stuff like that.

I don't know if the "just barely" was true or just to spare my feelings, but it hurt:

• ONE test determined whether I was gifted or not, no fair, it was orally given by a creepy guy who I didn't like.
• To learn you aren't smart enough to hang with the 'gifted' set was a bit crushing for a 10 year old.
• My brother was in the gifted program!!!!

So I'm not a fan of segregating kids, especially based on a single test. Maybe they don't do it that way anymore.

[Flor]

I do think the the term 'gifted' is used differently in different districts. Our district uses an IQ test, test scores in the 98% percentile or above OR teacher evalution, which means that a kid who has a pushy parent can still get into the gifted program without the test scores. For some reason, most of the teachers I know have kids who are "gifted." Some schools have an "honors" program separate from gifted for kids who don't test gifted but are strong students.

[katheek77]

Originally Posted by Kessed

Because it feels that many people pursue the gifted label for their child to avoid having their child learn how to fit into the classroom.

Little Jonny is bored in grade 1 - well - get him tested so that he doesn't have to do the work he finds boring...

This is just mindblowing to me. I can't imagine the outrage if I said this about any other exceptional child.

"It feels that many people pursue the (autistic/ED (emotionally disturbed)/dyslexic/ADHD(sub your choice of labels here)) label for their child to avoid having their child learn how to fit into the classroom."

Do you see how absolutely insulting that would be?

And, yes, gifted IS exceptional. The gifted brain works in ways that are much different from the "norm".

BTW, I am gifted, and never had any social problems in school, but, I found some grades particularly boring because of the teachers/curriculum...like, mind-numbingly boring. What do you do with a kid like me who will literally finish the 15 minute - worksheet in one and a half minutes? Give me more worksheets - because that's fair...you're "smart", so, do 8 times the work? I've already shown that 1) I know how to complete the task and 2) I can sit there and do the "boring" work, and do it well. Now what? Perhaps - just perhaps - a different curriculum should be available to me.

I also taught gifted kids - a couple were very gifted. The most profoundly gifted child (I mean, off the charts...the most gifted the GT coordinator had seen in the district in her 20 years) that I taught was absolutely well-behaved (military family), thoughtful, kind, athletic, and very popular with his peers. I had a couple more students who WERE disruptive if they weren't being stimulated, and another who was "difficult" (not my label - the one that had followed him into my fourth grade class) because he was always figuring out new ways to solve math problems, got antsy in class, and was easily frustrated (and, yes, I recommended him for gifted testing early in the year, assuming he'd test as gifted for math, but was actually a little surprised when he tested gifted for BOTH math and language arts - his lang. arts grades were not all that great, and he struggled a bit with reading, but, obviously, there is great potential there - but you couldn't have gone just on grades alone). So, he was well on his well to getting a label and medication, anyway. (ADHD) I saw that he was at least gifted in math, and gave him differentiated instruction. ie...the basics of what the class was being taught, and, once he showed he had mastered that (in no time, usually), more challenging, more abstract concepts, etc.) after the first quarter. Once he was receiving differentiated instruction his behavior DRAMATICALLY improved, so, the gifted label (or, at least, the recognition of his behavior as being an indicator if giftedness) was a Godsend to him, his family, myself (I will admit I was going crazy the first quarter trying to figure out what this kid's "problem" was), and probably his future teachers who will have an idea of what they're going to need to do for him.

Our district did not do solely IQ tests (they did, but there were other routes to AIG)...they went on teacher recommendations, then a couple tests (I do not recall the exact tests, but I'll try to find out), and then AGAIN, teacher recs for those kids who tested above the baseline...(ie...is this child truly gifted, or just "smart", and what did we have to back that up?) - the recs were a checklist that indicated a CLEAR basis for the need for differentiation. You could test into the program based solely on IQ test, but had to be at the 98th percentile or above I've rambled, and DD is attempting to break things...

[veryerin]

I do "buy" the gifted label, but feel is it widely misused.

I tested into the gifted program (IQ tests) in elementary school. Where I lived the program was one of those where you basically just got to do cool projects and field trips and skip out on some of the boring class stuff. Entirely NOT what a gifted program should be.

This was fine for me, however, because despite testing highly on IQ tests I really fell more into the "high acheiving" category. I had a great time in school and really enjoyed myself. I didn't need special education classes or programs as truly gifted children often do.

[gabysmom617]

Originally Posted by Treasuremapper

I think the underlying issue here has nothing to do with the term gifted. I would be very ticked off by the interaction you described, and I am fine with the term gifted.

It sounds like the issue is that grandma is competitive and implying that your nephew is somehow superior because he is gifted.

That would be highly annoying, especially if this is not the first time.

You didn't mention your kids' ages, or maybe I missed it. How old are they?

^^^ I was going to post this very thing. I think the whole thing people are discussing about giftedness is totally beside the point as to why this interaction rubbed you the wrong way, OP.

But for what it's worth, my views on TAG are somewhat different and more simplistic based on my own experiences.

I live in a very small closed minded town. I was in TAG up until middle school (unresolved AD/Hd issues took over then...)

Anyhow, I was in every TAG, I was in language arts TAG, reading TAG and math TAG.

In 5th on up, all the kids that were in "every" TAG, went once a week to "All day TAG".

I noticed in my class room that just about nearly every white student got to got to All Day Tag, and A handful of black students got to go. Every. single. black student who got to go to all day tag I noticed had parents who were teachers or otherwise in the school system.

My parents were not in the school system. My best friend (a black boy), his parents were not in the school system either. We were the only two children who were in "every" TAG but did not get to go All Day Tag with the rest of the students who had been in "every" TAG like us.

There were a few other students who got to go to TAG classes, but none of them were in every single TAG class like me and my friend were. We were absolutely the only two students who had been in "every single" TAG but did not go to All Day Tag...and we also the only two black students left in "every" TAG that didn't have parents in the school system.

Teachers kept asking us over and over again "Arent you in Language Arts, Reading, and Math? Aren't the two of you supposed to be in All Day Tag then?" Certain teachers were scratching their heads, totally baffled by the two of us not being in.

We didn't get it back then. Looking back on it, the reason is obvious.


Since then, I've had a bad taste in my mouth regarding TAG.

(Let's not even talk about how the teachers were trying to help the other white students who had AD/HD problems get them treated when times start getting tough in about 8th grade on up; but black TAG students with every obvious AD/HD problems like myself just slipped through the cracks and eventually slipped out of TAG altogether by high school...)

But these small experiences that I witnessed are but a small hint of the larger issue going on in my school; just a tip of the iceberg I'm willing to bet. I wonder how many other black students who could have very well been gifted (met many of them as I got older that were EXTREMELY intelligent and could have easily survived in the TAG and college prep classes...)

but I know this is probably not the case in all areas. But anyhow, for what it's worth this has somewhat tainted my vision of how the schools treat giftedness, and I'm more or less uninterested; Actually, I plan to homeschool, so it won't be too much of an issue for us.