Need support for FF moms who choose not to Vax

[Tanibani]

A friend of mine is the new mom of a preemie (3 months old). She's not BFing (believe me she would have if she could). She and her DH are adamant about not Vaxing.... but like many of us just beginning on this educational journey, is freaking out feeling confused : and scared about the possibility of getting one of the diseases. So she is considering vaxing, even though she does not want to!!! My friend, a brand new mom (we've all been there) is having a major freak-out.

Let's start a thread to support all FF moms who don't/can't BF with data, tips, knowledge on how to strengthen, protect and support their babies immune system WITHOUT vaxing.

Another issue: How to find a pediatrician who is supportive of not vaxing... especially with preemie issues (mom needs to go to well-baby visits, but mom doesn't need to be ambushed by staff everytime. )

Thank you!

(stopped vaxing at 6 months... DH feels the schedule is safe.)

[BowenTherapist]

i have a friend who formula feeds(long story, but she really wanted to bf) and doesn't vax her son. she makes her own formula for him and takes him to a naturopath that specializes in women and children.
making her own formula is safe as long as you have researched how to do it, and much better in my opinion than what is avaliable in the stores

[Tracy]

tanibani,
what a great thread. I have been thinking about something like this for the last month. I had a friend give birth in September and she had oodles of bf problems.

here are two small threads about formula that I found...


http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...hlight=formula

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...hlight=formula


I hope Hilary and Amnesiac will swing by along with others.

[PurplePixiePooh]

Howdy! I am a FF mama who does not vaccinate her children! I have bf'd for three weeks, though I had to suppliment as I had next to no milk. I tried relactation techniques, but my ds is not a "sucker" he needs to be stimulated to even suck on a bottle, and yadda, yadda, yada. Anywho, I have been placing one pinch of vitamin C powder in each bottle. He had a head cold and cough just this week. It lasted 36 hours. My dd was schedule vaxed till I learned about vaccines and we have since discontinued vaxing her. She is 3 (as of this past Wednesday) I watch her diet, give her a multi vitamin suppliment and have placed her on a rotating schedule of a vit. c and echinacea suppliment. You can also use aromatherapy on babies 3 mos and older. I make a resistance booster spritz with 1/2 c. spring water 6 drops each Lavender and Tea Tree EO. Lavendar causes the body to produce more white blood cells, thus making it more resistant to infection.

Since the mama in your post has a preemie, I really cant be too specific on preemie nutrition, although she can try to get milk from a milk bank and should qualify as she has a preemie. That would be great.
Also this may seem overly simple, but try to limit their exposure to germs. I wipe down shopping carts with an anti bacterial/anti viral solution made from 1 c spring water and 60 drops of Grapefruit Seed Extract. Wash hands after using the potty, diaper changes and always before making/handeling bottles.
I carry hand sanitizer in my diaper bag and purse. We use it after touching doors, shaking hands, touching railings etc...It may seem alot, but think of all the people that poop, sneeze and all and don't wash and touch that very same thing.

Moms should also do all they can to keep their own immunity high. A sick mama will usually get her chidren sick and vice versa. I also rotate vit c and echinacea, take a multi and eat a healthy organic vegetarian diet.

Avoid unnecessary medications, even OTC. I use homeopathics, herbals and aromatherapy.

Try to make doctor appts to be the first patient of the day, that way the healthy children will not be exposed to the germs of all the sick ones that have been in and out all day, and believe me that thin useless paper on the exam tables are useless - ds caught his first cold on a well baby visit.

While I have no advice for finding a non vax friendly ped (mine is, but by a coincidence) I would just encourage her to have some stats on hand, to "defend" her choice should it arise and a vaccine refusal form ( I can post a generic one I have on my computer) filled out and ready to be placed in her file.

Next, keep well baby check ups, but as long as the baby has no health issues, after a while I would (and do) limit them.

I also have begun keeping a small journal for each of my children about their health. I just write their name, age and diet in it. I include vitamins given and then when they are ill I write in what it was, symptoms, diagnosis (if taken to a doc) and treatment given.
It is handy as well if you get advice for a treatment, then face needing to use it again, that way you never can forget it and can chart how well it works too. I use a cheapie notebook from the dollar store.

Well, that is all I can give, I am looking forward to other resonses.
Even if you are a breastfeeding mama (or a knowledgable papa) I would love to hear about things that you do to keep your treasures healthy!

[Tracy]

Tanibani,
if your friend can come to mdc...she can search this thread for possibly a non vax doctor in her area...

I went through the search engines here state by state and pulled out all pertinent threads to each state and a number of them had discussions about non-vax friendly peds.

kwim?

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=88436


tracy

[PurplePixiePooh]

Hilary, you said:

However, in this country, where people have selected a formula, I strongly recommend adding in yoghurt or kefir, or powdered probiotics, and also something called Transfer Factor.

Can you please elaborate on this, what exactly do I need to buy, how do I add it, and what does each do. Oh, yes and amounts too.

I have had no success at relactation, and the pump does not provide adequate stimulation for me. We have no LC's who are willing to help me for what we can afford to pay and the local LLL is not helpful, sad to say.

I am very appreciative.

[Mirzam]

Originally posted by Hilary


so, whoever knows how to make a decent formula, I'd love to see a recipe.

Hilary, I cannot vouch for this recipe because thankfully I have never had to use formula. It comes from the Weston A Price Foundation and is by Sally Fallon author of Nourishing Traditions:

Homemade baby formula

Edited to add a some of Aajonus Vonderplanitz recipes for babies, but I doubt you would go for it!!!

I don't think he recommends these for babies under 9 months.

Infant Glandular Booster:
8 servings

1 cup of organic raw liver
1 cup raw milk
1/4 teaspoon unheated honey

Cut liver into small chunks. Blenderize all ingredients in a 16-ounces jar on high speed for 20-25 seconds. Strain mixture through strainer or cloth pouch. Squeeze pouch to speed straining. Use nipple with large hole.

Infant Immune Booster:
8 servings

1 cup organic raw liver
1 cup of raw milk
2 raw eggs
1/4 teaspoon unheated honey

Instructions as above.

Infant milkshake:
2 servings

2 ounces of raw milk
2 onches of raw cream
1 raw egg
1/4 teaspoon of unheated honey

Blenderize all ingredients together in an 8-ounces jar on medium speed for 5 seconds.

Infant Nervous System Booster:
8 servings

1 onces fresh ocean wild-caught raw fish
3 tablespoons raw cream
1/4 cup fresh organic liver
2 ounces raw milk
1 raw egg
1/2 teaspoon unheated honey

Instructions as for Glandular Booster and Immune Booster.

These recipes come from his book "The Recipe for Living Without Disease", and again I can't vouch for them as I have never used them on my kids.

Thank heavens for breastmilk!


Deborah

[mum2corbie]

Mamaof2 really said a lot. Not sure I can add to that. I understand relactation not working and not being able to pump. Happened with my first, very frustrating.

As for making your own formula. If I were put into that situation (we've come close with my low supply issues but narrowly avoided it) Dr Sears has a Goats milk recapie on his site. That's what I;'d use and then add in soem of the stuff suggested by previous posters.

As for well baby cks. I would avoid them personally. If for some reason I felt I wanted to see a DR I would switch to a chiropractor that has a general practicioner on staff, a neuropath, a homeopathic or herbalist Dr. They are more likley toaddress the nutricional needs of the child to keep the immune system boosted as well as have less patiends to expose the baby to.

HTH

[Mirzam]

Originally posted by Hilary

I'm sort of at some of the ingredients... I just can't conceive of giving my baby some of that stuff, but I'm open to being educated on this, though its an area I have no guilt about being ignorant on. If I need to help someone in this position, I would at least like to be able to point to good sources.

Hilary,

As you know I am no expert! Doing the research on all this is somewhat daunting, given the huge amounts of junk science, misinformation and vested interests out there.

Generally people live their lives in F.E.A.R. (false evidence appearing real) because they assume what they have been told by health departments that reside in the cerebral dark ages is true. IMO these so called experts base their raw food restrictions on prejudicial correlations, erroneous statistics and pseudo science. They hold the totally one-sided position that contends all pathogens are bad and must be eradicated. They hold fast to their theories on “bacterial-food poisoning “ theories and ignore the existing data that proves pasteurization does not make food safe nor does it prevent disease. Rather it causes disease. This makes for very poor policy making judgments. Combine this with the population’s fear of loss, injury and the unknown and you have the perfect environment for control. Sounds like the Patriot Act!!!

We must learn not to fear the FDA, USDA, and the CDC. And we must “follow the money” to free ourselves even more from this mindset of fear. Those with a vested interest are corporations concerned with product shelf-life. The food industry wants pasteurization, chemical washes, antibacterials and irradiation because their products will have a longer shelf-life and will reduce their spoilage costs. They care more for their profits than they do about our health. Add to this the pharmaceutical, agri-chemical giants and of course the medical profession that fuel microbe-hysteria.

Here is a nice quote from Aajonus:

“Pathogens” are to the body what vultures, crows and ants are to the Earth. They are a few of the Earth’s janitors. They find carcasses and eat them. Without the Earth’s janitors, our air would be in jeopardy of becoming toxic gas in which animals could not thrive. “Pathogens” are our bodes’ helpful, organic, inner-ecological recycling organisms that help us thrive.

I believe what makes us sick is biological degeneration through eating cooked and processed foods, industrial, environmental and therapeutic pollution, this includes medication. This last reason is, I know, difficult for many people (those outside of the choir, that is!) to comprehend. So the question is according to Aajonus, “Should we teach how to prevent and reverse disease, or should we spend our lives in fear, fighting futile microbial wars? My choice is to live without disease.”

The medical profession, consistent with their beliefs, prescribe food and therapies for babies and children that create disease (including, as we well know, vaccinations). For example, they say raw milk is dangerous for infants, causing bacterial food poisoning and death without ONE credible scientific study to support their theory. The published data from the first five decades after the introduction of pasteurization and processed infant formula proves it is dangerous and causes disease and prove that feeding infants raw milk is safe and health-giving. But just about all these studies date back to the early to mid part of the 20th century and it is very easy for modern day scientists to ignore them especially given who pays for their research. Just look at the work of Francis Pottenger and Weston A. Price as two examples on the value of raw milk and food.

I realize the list of ingredients in the infant formulas I post are off the charts, but when we realize that microbes and so called “pathogens” really are not our enemies they make more sense. Breastmilk is alive, so are the ingredients of these formulas.

Deborah

[Tracy]

For those moms who might not go for milk from a milk bank or make their own formulas....which I understand might be too much a stretch for some...but are there are any other ways supports to immune systems that others can add...

I would love to give this thread to my friend and I'm not sure where she would be on those two ideas...although I think they are great...

just wanted to add:
I think one of the reasons why I like this thread is that it opens up, or is a beautiful bridge for those moms who do ff but still would like to not-vax. I know we all get kind of lumped together..I've had some people describe me as hippy/bf/nonvaxer... as though one definitely meant the other, mean the other, mean the other, mean the other...I'm much more complicated than that.. although, I have been to a grateful dead concert..but that is another thread entirely.......

[phathui5]

1/4 teaspoon unheated honey

Please don't feed honey to children under a year. Can you say botulism?

[Mirzam]

Originally posted by phathui5
Please don't feed honey to children under a year. Can you say botulism?

Please read my post above. This is not true! But I have no problem with you not feeding your baby honey, if you are fearful of botulism.

I could go on at some length about unheated raw honey and its properties vs heated honey but it probably isn't worth it. Same old same old.....

Deborah

[goodpapa]

Deborah...

...if you don't have the time to post these over at "Natural Nutrition Project"...


...I would like to.

I got a Grouper head and spine yesterday at my local Whole Foods for .99/lb. You wouldn't happen to know where the thyroid gland is in the fish head, or what it looks like? I'll "stock" the whole thing if I have to, but I'd rather eat the gland raw before I cook it.

Been findin' little black ants in the kitchen these days, got tired of washing them down the sink-- what a waste of water...



Just settin' that "inner boy" free,


Ray

[Mirzam]

Re: Deborah...

Originally posted by goodpapa
...if you don't have the time to post these over at "Natural Nutrition Project"...


...I would like to.

I got a Grouper head and spine yesterday at my local Whole Foods for .99/lb. You wouldn't happen to know where the thyroid gland is in the fish head, or what it looks like? I'll "stock" the whole thing if I have to, but I'd rather eat the gland raw before I cook it.

Been findin' little black ants in the kitchen these days, got tired of washing them down the sink-- what a waste of water...
Ray

I will be happy to post the recipes over on the Natural Nutrition Project. Not sure they will go down too well though! It also means I will have to write another discourse on why microbes are not the enemies.

I am sorry I have no idea where the thyroid is in a Grouper! It can't be very big, why don't you dig around inside and see what you come up with!

So you have ants in your pants now Ray?



Deborah

[pumpkinhead]

Please read my post above. This is not true! But I have no problem with you not
feeding your baby honey, if you are fearful of botulism.I could go on at some length about unheated raw honey and its properties vs
heated honey but it probably isn't worth it. Same old same old.....

http://waltonfeed.com/grain/faqs/iid2.html

uccomama,

I agree with you in principle. So-called 'pathogenic' bacteria are not always the enemy. That said, giving honey, raw, unheated or otherwise to a child who is too young to have a properly formed gut-flora is folly (this doesn't happen until 12 mos or more).

Clostridium botulinum is a strict anaerobe and a spore former and you can find it just about everywhere as it is soil flora (mesophile). These spores are REALLY heat resistant. The bacteria and the spores themselves aren't the problem, it's the toxin the bacteria makes as it germinates and grows. In a mature gut, they can't compete with the intestinal flora and die off quickly but in a babe's gut, there isn't enough competition and they can germinate and grow and begin toxin production. Botulimun toxin is one of the most potent neurotoxins around. It only takes picograms of this stuff to cause paralysis and/or death.

I don't mean to sound as if I am preaching gloom and doom. It's very possible that feeding your child raw milk or honey will never harm them, but there is a small chance that it will and the consequences are severe. As a parent, you need to make a calculated risk, I guess.

One needn't be afraid of pathogens, but I do feel that a healthy respect and as much knowledge as you can gather IS needed.

[Mirzam]

Originally posted by pumpkinhead

I don't mean to sound as if I am preaching gloom and doom. It's very possible that feeding your child raw milk or honey will never harm them, but there is a small chance that it will and the consequences are severe. As a parent, you need to make a calculated risk, I guess.

One needn't be afraid of pathogens, but I do feel that a healthy respect and as much knowledge as you can gather IS needed.

Pumkinhead, I agree you have to take a calculated risk and for me giving my children processed formula is far, far more dangerous than giving them a tiny bit of unheated honey. Not that mine ever had honey at that age, as they were breastfed and had no need of any supplemental feeding. But if I had to I would feed them Aajonus Vonderplanitz's formulas. I would never feed infants honey heated above 104 degrees though.

As for raw milk I totally disagree with you. There is far more risk in feeding a child pasteurized milk products than raw milk. As I said, there have been no credible studies that have shown raw milk to be any thing but healthful. By credible I mean studies done by those without a vested interest of some kind. There have been no known outbreaks of bacterial food-poisoning associated with raw milk, but there have been plenty associated with pasteurized milk. I would say thousands of babies die in this country from being fed pasteurized milk products whether directly or indirectly.

I would also dispute what is acutally "bacterial food poisoning". In most cases the symtoms described are of anaphylaxis, or drug-damage or poisoning, rather than bacterial food poisoning. In rare instances death can be caused by dehyration or excessive bleeding caused by violent vomiting or diarrhea and "pathogens" are sometimes found in the presence of diarrhea and vomit, but they have not been proved the cause. So I would contend that those people reported to have died, died from the medical treatment of antibiotics and/or other medication. The treatment of bacterial poisoning involves drugs that contain poisons (ie thimerasol). Mercury can cause symtoms of Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome, which is usually blamed on E.coli, and kidney failure and neuological damage. Cipro has been linked to kidney degeneration. These drugs damage the kidney cells so that virus and bacteria can get in and disolve them. The medical treament for bloody diaherrea is probably the major cause of HUS and kidney failure.

Of course you are not going to get anyone to research this because it would open the flood gates for lawsuits against doctors, hospitals and the pharmaceutical companies.

Deborah

[amnesiac]

-

[Lucysmama]

I just wanted to say that we mostly FF, and we do not vax. DD did have a few months of expressed breastmilk, but went to formula after that. Is there any way the baby could have just a bit of BM/colostrum? I'm sure it would do a lot of good!

I recommend adding to the formula if she is going to buy it from the store, comercially produced. Vitamin C and fatty acids especially!

Tell your friend to take obvious precautions...avoid people with illnesses, don't pass the baby around the room to all different people, etc...most of all, find a supportive doctor!!!! We found one who was willing to never mention it again, as long as we signed a paper stating she had recommended it and we said no.

And good luck to her!

[mum2corbie]

Wow, facinating thread. I feel smarter having read it.

[mum2corbie]

Re: Deborah...

Originally posted by goodpapa
...if you don't have the time to post these over at "Natural Nutrition Project"...


...I would like to.

I got a Grouper head and spine yesterday at my local Whole Foods for .99/lb. You wouldn't happen to know where the thyroid gland is in the fish head, or what it looks like? I'll "stock" the whole thing if I have to, but I'd rather eat the gland raw before I cook it.

Been findin' little black ants in the kitchen these days, got tired of washing them down the sink-- what a waste of water...



Just settin' that "inner boy" free,


Ray

Ray, I got those lil ants in my kitchen too. My 3 yr old son thinks they make great playmates. He caught me squishing some and got really mad. Good thing I didn't pull out the ant sprey in front of him.