Need support for FF moms who choose not to Vax - Page 2

[goodpapa]

Let me clarify....

"...Been findin' little black ants in the kitchen these days, got tired of washing them down the sink-- what a waste of water..."

....so I eat them.


They're a little peppery, and nice n crunchy.

Now I just need the nutritional backup to justify.


Gettin' back to my roots,


Ray

[pumpkinhead]

uccomama,

Please don't misread me. I didn't say that raw milk was detrimental to infants. I stated that raw milk-associated L. monocytogenes infection of PREGNANT women is associated with still birth and spontaneous abortion. I cited several credible studies for your benefit. These were not hawking drugs, merely discussing the epidemiology of a pathogen.

Listerosis is not a new disease. Raw milk drinkers were suffering from it before the dawn of pasteurization. IT's known as 'milk sickness' and is a chronic condition. It's not a hugely common thing, but it does exist and it is a risk. I would contend that it is more prevalent from milk that is associated with HUGE diary operations, where raw milk is left to sit in a vat for extended periods of time, tho.

I do want to applaud you for your attitude tho. I may not agree with you on every point, but it's refreshing to encounter a 'free-thinker' in a world where Lysol is trying to convince us to live in bacteria-free 'splendour'.

I must, however, take issue with a few of the comments you made with regard to food-poisoning. First off, I have seen what cholera and botulimun toxin do to healthy cells. I have seen this first hand in my own lab through my own inversion scope with my own epithelial cells. It ain't pretty. The drugs you describe, my exaserbate the situation, but the are not souly responsible for all the damage.

I have seen what these diseases do if left untreated. Note, I didn't say 'treated with drugs', just 'treated'. Cholera and Shigella kill thousands of people in developing countries every day (many of them children)and they do it without the benefit of modern western medicine. I have also seen this with my own two eyes.

I believe that formula (commercial or home made) is a hugely useful resource IF (a big IF) it is needed. Many women cannot breast feed due to mastectomy, HIV infection and many other obstacles and lots of them can't afford (or don't have access to) the costs associated with a milk bank. I recall a poster in here stating that she didn't think formula should be availible w/o a perscription. A little extreme, perhaps, but vaild in it's own way.

The key here is to be aware of the risks; to EDUCATE one's self. We need to gather ALL of the info, not just the stuff that interests us, ALL OF IT and then make an informed descision based on the FACTS. Then, the hardest part, live with the consequences of that descision, whatever they may be.

[goodpapa]

What I'd like to see....

...and I'll start searching for it myself, is what probiotic cultures do to raw milk.


I eat a raw milk cheese that (I think) has been cultured for 60 days plus.

I am looking for raw milk here in central N.C. and Saturday I learned that Amish/Mennonite farmers will sell it to you. Now I just have to find them. Apparently, also, you can buy "animal-grade B" raw milk legally. Unfortunately none of the dairies at the farmer's market were interested.

I do know that I have to heat my pasteurized milk to about 190 degrees before I culture it to kill ambient yeast--- I had a culturing failure when I didn't.

I'll bet though that that is a WEAKNESS of pasteurized milk that wouldn't be necessary if I used raw milk---- now I just have to find the right milk to experiment.


Enzyme Surplus, NOT Enzyme Debt!


Ray

P.S. I can't wait to see Sally Fallon when she speaks in Chapel Hill Nov. 7

[Mirzam]

Originally posted by pumpkinhead

I do want to applaud you for your attitude tho. I may not agree with you on every point, but it's refreshing to encounter a 'free-thinker' in a world where Lysol is trying to convince us to live in bacteria-free 'splendour'.

Thank you!

Pumkinhead, I will not get into cholera etc with you because the conditions in third world countries where it does exist cannot be compared to the conditions in which we live. Were I to live in a country where it occured, I would still have no fear of it, knowing what I know.

I realize that some women can't breast feed and they need to be offered an alternative, but I am not convinced that commercial formula really is the solution. There is so much wrong with our society and medicine that needs to be addressed, but this is not the post to do it. As you might expect, I do not agree with mastectomy as a treatment for breast cancer nor do I belive HIV is a reason not to breastfeed. Just look at Christine Maggiore. Milk banks are fine, but once they pasteurize and flash freeze the breastmilk you might as well not bother (IMO).

I am sorry I didn't get to respond to your Listerorsis post. But again this not something I fear having drunk raw milk while pregnant. I will ask Aajonus about this, just haven't gotten around to sending that email!

Deborah

[Mirzam]

Ray, as I understand it the problem with yoghurt is that it is heated, so the milk is no longer raw. It's got to be way better than using pasteurized milk though.

Here is how you can make raw milk kefir without a culture-additive:

Let the raw milk stand at room temperature in a dark cupboard. An upper cupboard is better because it is warmer. It is ready when the milk becomes thick, usually after two days.

We also used to make kefir with a starter but getting fresh raw milk from the farm that hasn't been refridgerated adding the starter and placing the milk jar in hot water (but no hotter than 98 degrees) in a cooler box. leave it over night in a dark warm place and you should have kefir in the morning.

Deborah

[Mirzam]

Originally posted by Hilary
Dear Deborah,

What you have just described in the post above, is not kefir, it is matsoni, which is basically, soured milk.

Kefir is kefir is kefir, and requires the "plant" in order to make it. And it also has a totaly different probiotic mix to Matsoni.

Thanks for telling me. I didn't realize that.

My at the ingredients had nothing to do with pathogens. I know what the function of a liver is, and cannot imagine feeding my child raw liver, especially from commercially raised animals, that have livers that are severely stressed, often with scorbutic patches, and full of garbage that the poor animals body is trying desperately to get rid of, "knowing" that the "stupid" farmer is putting stuff into their bodies, which shouldn't get within and arctic's reach of them....

the thought makes my guts crawl.

That I can understand, I too wouldn't give my children any old raw liver either! Not that they would eat it anyway. But Aajonus has done some interesting research on organic vs non organic meat. It seems that the disgusting stuff in commercial meat, provided it is eaten raw, is not stored in the body, but passes right through it. This is not the case for cooked meat. Not that I would ever recommend eating the commercial trash sold in most supermarkets, raw or cooked. We are lucky in that we can get grass fed, organic meat easily. He said that while living in France he ate supermarket beef raw which was likely to have been infected with Mad Cow. This prompted him to do the research because he was very concerned for himself!

I realize that this isn't very scientific, but for some reason there just isn't the interest out there to do the research.:

[Lucysmama]

Hey...I'm not trying to be an a$$hole or anything, but isn't this thread dedicated to support for FF moms who don't vax...? How is all of this debate being supportive to a mom who needs it? :

Edited to add....perhaps ya'll can post this debate on Good Eating or Health forum..? A new momma needs advice, and this thread was created to help her out.

[pumpkinhead]

Dear Hilary,

Correct me if I'm wrong (and it has happened MANY times before ), but isn't a pregnant woman, by definition, immunocompromised? Doesn't she have to be, to a degree, so that her immune system doesn't attack the fetus? The Listeria isn't a threat to Mom, but to babe.

On the gut flora issue, ITA. A breastfed babe's gut is far different from a formula fed babe's. BF'd babes do still have 'leaky' guts until at least 6 mos tho, no? Twelve months is just an arbitray age, but IMHO, it's better to wait a bit longer to be sure than to not wait long enough.

I do think that modified commercial formula would be the way to go, in addition to vit C. I love the idea of making my own formula (if I had too) but I don't think I could do it unless I could find a source of iron rather than raw liver.

Lucysmama:

I think if you read the original post, it's asking how to boost a non-vaxed FF infant's immune system. I think if you read the majority of the posts here, you'll find that this is what is being discussed. I.E. Probiotics, kefir, raw milk, home made formula etc and the merits of all of these things. I agree that we may have strayed a bit off-topic in places but I don't believe that we've strayed completely off the garden path. My appologies.

[Mirzam]

Hilary and Pumkinhead

I totally respect your choices. I realize I am very radical in the way I eat, but I 100 percent believe in my choices.

Lucysmama

I am sorry if you think we are not being supportive of FF moms who don't vax. Like Pumkinhead said, we have covered many topics that are relevant to the OP. It may have strayed OT a bit, but hopefully most have found it an interesting thread.

Deborah

[pumpkinhead]

Dear Hilary,

ITA with you with respect to breast milk and it's benefits and that solids should be delayed longer than 4 frickin' months (reccomended by my ped). I guess what I getting at was some babe's sensitivity to aspects of their mama's diets when BF'ing. I don't drink cow's milk period but I must confess to indulging in the occasional...(okay, maybe not so occasional ) scoop of home made icecream. When DS was really little (between birth and 3-4 mos) if I ate ice cream, he'd have blood in his diaper. Looked like red threads. This didn't happen when I ate yogurt (which I eat tonnes of). I was assuming it had something to do with the size of the protiens in the cows milk/cream that he wasn't able to deal with = leaky gut? (He had NO solids til 5.5 mos when he got a handful of rice outta my plate and then not again til 7.5 mos.) As I said before, it's not unusual for me to be wrong....


I also TA with the culturing of formula. THe problem with formula is that it's 'dead' whereas BM is alive and full of living cells. This might be a way to make it alive? In a very dif way, albeit...

[Tracy]

bump

[Lucysmama]

Originally posted by Hilary
Dear Lucysmama,


If I were a mother happy to use a formula, (and didn't want to know that it was severely deficient in several significant areas) and just wanted people to pat me on the head and tel me that my current state of knowledge, was the state of art,...... then that isn't support.
.
I'm sorry you don't feel that its supportive enough for the mother needing "support". It's a shame she isn't saying, herself.

Perhaps you would like to define for me how I'm not being supportive, and what you feel "being supportive" means, and how you would like to be more "supported".

Hey now, no need to get snarky....

I was just trying to make things a little less intimidating for possible posters to get involved in, for the mother who needs advice, and to try to stick to what the OP said...to create a thread to support FF moms who don't vax. Sometimes when there is a debate about such things as food poisining/bacteria in a thread about supporting FF mamas, things get a little hard to sort through....esp. if you are new to MDC, and have a friend write in for advice.

Just keeping the OP and her friend in mind. That's all. No personal attack here. White flag. No defenses needed. What I posted, I did out of respect for *all* posters...please afford me the same courtesy.

I think a lot of valid points were made here, some of them very useful...and I am not discrediting anything any posters said...I was just hoping to help steer the thread in a new direction that may be helpful in another way to the OP/her friend.

No one needs to pat anyone's head here and tell them anything. That is condescending and not what I was saying at all. (Nor did I suggest anything remotely similar.) But the fact is, there ARE mamas here who cannot breastfeed, and will not vax, and need support, reassurance, and information about the correlation between the two. I know. I was one of them.

I am trying to help support a mama, just like you are. I apologize if I offended anyone!!!

[sweetfeet]

I just wanted to jump in..my thread was one of the ones listed on the first page as one to look into. I guess I just wanted to update
Well that post was written when Sophie was 10 months old. She had her 9 month vaccinations and those were the very last that she had. We have her on a whole/organic foods diet as much as we can. She is now almost 18 months old and has still never gotten sick. I just had bronchitis and a sinus infection at the same time and she never caught it Im so happy with my decision to stop vaccinating her. Oh and Sophie was a preemie born at 35 weeks. I don't know that Id let that sway my decision. I guess if she was an earlier preemie or had other problems. Luckily she was really healthy except for some jaundice.
Anyway, just wanted to update so that the OP could share my story with her friend. Sophie is healthier than most kids in the area and has never had a runny nose or any illness to speak of and she is frequently around her 3 yo cousin who always(literally) has double ear infections and who knows what else.
Sorry its a bit of a ramble..Im making a grocery list and balancing the checkbook as well. My work is never done:LOL

[Tracy]

Oh and Sophie was a preemie born at 35 weeks. I don't know that Id let that sway my decision. I guess if she was an earlier preemie or had other problems. Luckily she was really healthy except for some jaundice.

Anyway, just wanted to update so that the OP could share my story with her friend. Sophie is healthier than most kids in the area and has never had a runny nose or any illness to speak of and she is frequently around her 3 yo cousin who always(literally) has double ear infections and who knows what else.

I don't know if the original poster will post with her friend but I certainly will bring this to my friend's attention.

Thank you so much, sweetfeet.

[najles2001]

Thank you

Hello

I am the one Tanibani wrote about in this thread.

I am having a really difficult time with this. You gave me a lot to think about.

And thank you Tanibani for helping me out and starting this thread.

Take care,
Madeline