Do you think lack of discreetness hurts lactivism?

[SuzyLee]

I am not a modest person, I just never have been. I am the wierd lady walking around the gym locker room naked.

So that has transferred somewhat to BF'ing in public, I will do it anywhere, I will feel myself up to decide which side to nurse on, and I am not very discreet. What I mean by that is I will pull a low cut shirt down to nurse, or if the baby pulls off to look around, I forget that I should probably cover up a bit. When people say you don't show anymore than a Vic Secret model... um plenty of people have probably seen my whole naked boob.

I sometimes wonder if that is actually a disservice to nursing in public. Because when people are uncomfortable with NIP, one of the first arguyments is that you can't see anything, it is totally discreet, etc. And I am not discreet at all.

What do you think? Is there anyone else out there that doesn't worry about being discreet?

[mamabadger]

I am all for babies being nursed anywhere, any time, and fortunately live in a place where that right is protected. However, I think it is reasonable to consider the questions you raise. Is how we nurse going to affect the public perception of NIP? Are there etiquette issues that could apply to NIP?

Just to get the discussion started...
No matter how publicly acceptable a bodily function or activity is, there are always ways to do it that are polite, inoffensive, and "nice," and other ways to do it which might be rude or inconsiderate of others. Consider how you might do the following in either of the two ways:

1. eating
2. blowing your nose
3. talking on a cell phone
4. kissing your spouse
5. coughing
6. adjusting your clothing

None of those things are wrong or inappropriate in public. All of them could be done in a way that is more offensive or inconvenient to others than is really necessary. How would breastfeeding fit into the list?

[changingseasons]

Why should I have to worry about everyone else's comfort level when I'm feeding my baby?? :

(Sorry... still seething after a "taking a dump is 'natural' too, but no one wants to see you do it" comment on my blog from a family member, in response to my NIP comments.)

Back on topic... I try to be fairly modest, I'm not just whipping out breasts and leaving them hanging out, but my DD pops off a LOT... and I'm not always jumping to cover my breast because she will pop right back on 3 seconds later. So yes, I'm sure many have seen my whole breast as well.

Honestly- I think that the more people see it, the more 'normal' it will be for them. I think that if you are constantly trying to hide and cover up, you will just be promoting the thought that breasts are taboo, or gross, or should be hidden.

[tireesix]

What I don't get is how its beautiful to see a tribes woman breastfeeding or in fact, people totally nonplussed by it yet when someone in our own country does it its gross.

I just don't get it at all.I don't get why its ok to have topless women in the sun, to have mostly naked women on front covers on low down shelves but when I breastfeed, I have to be discreet otherwise I am offending people.

[milkeriffic mama]

actually, i think that encouraging women to be "discreet" (a word that I personally hate, btw) perpetuates the idea that breastfeeding is something shameful to be covered up.

to me, it is about personal comfort level- if one woman prefers to cover up, that is her prerogative, and she should not be judged for it. but as we know that some babies/children will not allow themselves to be covered or some women aren't comfortable covering themselves, and those women shouldn't be judged either.

i personally am not nursing my child differently to make it palatable for someone else, and i think we do a greater disservice to women by placing expectations on them of discreetness, since many women feel they can't be modest enough and choose not to nurse at all because of it.

[miss_sonja]

I think the discreet thing is overblown. Most complainants would complain about nursing whether they could see a sliver of boob or not. I mean, you don't see n*pple, and what you could see is less than some swimsuits show. I think it's a side issue, a distraction.

[luvmy3bees]

See, I am a discreet lactivist...... But that is for me, not any reason to be. Nobody has ever made me feel like hiding. It is just what I prefer. When I go to the IL's I love to go into the other room because I need a moment away from well my MIL. I have NIP. Without a problem. DH doesn't mind at all what I do.
But I have to say I love seeing a mom bf in public and will be more then happy to get all momma bear for her as well if someone bugs her.

BTW, ds loves showing off my nipple!

[mamadelbosque]

I'm not discreet either. And I don't sweat it. I too feel my boobs to try and member' which side we're 'on', and pull the boob out whichever way's easiest.

Honestly, I think the whole 'discreetness is key' thing is contracitory to lactivism - it makes it seem like we're doing something wrong that should be hidden, when it shouldn't.

[sapphire_chan]

I gave up worrying about "discreet" when I read about a woman being told to feed her child in the restroom when she was using a blanket to cover up.

Also, as long as people aren't freaked out by seeing babies suck on bottles, they've got no business saying word one about breastfeeding.

And the ideas people have when they say to "breastfeed discreetly" usually has nothing to do with how they'd expect an adult to eat discreetly.

[~sweet pea~]

This is a really thought-provoking thread.

I don't think the issue comes down to discretion per se, because as one PP noted, even a sliver of boob, sans nipple can cause a reaction.

The lactivist response is often that the more mothers NIP, the more our culture will acclimate to the sight of a naked, nursing boob/nipple. I've usually agreed with this theory, but some of the points raised in this thread now make me wonder.

First, I think we have to start by accepting that, except for certain progressive pockets, the prevailing culture here in the US is that ALL female nipples (nursing or otherwise) should be covered in public.

From there I think we have to answer the question: is it the goal of lactivism to change the prevailing culture to accept the sight of a naked boob/nipple in ALL situations or only in a nursing situation? In other words, are we seeking a nursing exception to the existing cover-your-nipple custom or are we seeking a new custom that allows public nipples in all circumstances?

(Here I'd have to confess that while I'm perfectly okay with nursing mother naked nipples, I'm not too keen on the idea of me, my grandmother, or my (as yet theoretical) teenage daughter walking around topless on a general basis.)

If we are only seeking an exception, I wonder if that will be easier or harder to accomplish.... on the one hand, if the sight of nipple is still deemed "wrong" in most circumstances, it will be hard for people to "unlearn" that visceral reaction for one circumstance. On the other hand, nursing is probably the most "wholesome" circumstance in which a naked nipple could be viewed.

I think that somewhere this line of thought overlaps the discussion over the boob as functional vs. sexual, or both at the same time.

Just a few thoughts to chew on....

[AngelBee]

Yes.

[library lady]

Originally Posted by changingseasons

Back on topic... I try to be fairly modest, I'm not just whipping out breasts and leaving them hanging out, but my DD pops off a LOT... and I'm not always jumping to cover my breast because she will pop right back on 3 seconds later. So yes, I'm sure many have seen my whole breast as well.

Honestly- I think that the more people see it, the more 'normal' it will be for them. I think that if you are constantly trying to hide and cover up, you will just be promoting the thought that breasts are taboo, or gross, or should be hidden.

I am sure that I have flashed a person or two. I try to be discreet depending on where I am at and the situation at hand.

I have had discussions with people that have a problem with the mere idea of a babe suckling at the breast. If a babe is under a blanket nursing, the person is completely taken aback and disgusted even if they see absolutely NOTHING. No amount of discreetness would make these people any more comfortable with nursing. These are the same people that do not see breasts as taboo or gross. They are they for sexual purposes. I had a friend who was pressured to quit nursing because breasts are for men not babies. Breastfeeding is seen as something that animals do and it is not for civilized people. I don't like this attitude and I don't agree with it but I have encountered it enough to know that whether or not you are discreet is irrelevant. People that see it as animalistic are going to find a million reasons why it is gross and the lack of discreetness is just one reason among many.

[saimeiyu]

Sweat pea, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

It's not just the nursing nipple we have to be concerned with, IMO. It's the whole perception of the breast as a sexual object that we are or should be concerned with.

If the female breast/nipple is no more or less sexual than a male breast/nipple, I think that would be great.
I'm trying to find a way to say this without sounding nudist, but I can't quite think of the way to say it-- I'm not nudist, but with that in mind--
Women shouldn't be expected to cover up their nipples when not breastfeeding any more than men are. I think that it should be MORE acceptable for a nursing mother to show her nipple in public, than it would be for a man to show his nipple in public. So, for example, at the pool, I think it should be more OK if a nursing mom went topless than for the menfolk to be topless. (I probably wouldn't because I need some form of control for the girls, but if a less-endowed woman was comfortable with that, I think it should be OK and publicly accepted.

I don't think indiscreet bfing hurts lactivism, personally. I think that the more people see a nursing breast, nursing babies, or whatever, the more normal it will become. Just like, those skimpy bikini's or hankerchief halter-tops are almost completely normal, now, most people don't looks sideways at them. If more women flashed more booby while breastfeeding, and it was on the media all the time, I can't see how that would hurt lactivism.

I mean, it would really upset those types of women who really only want their husband to see their own nipples, but... well, IMO, that's just too darn bad. I want my daughter to never, ever, ever have to worry about whether she'll get kicked off a plane, kicked out of a restaurant, or otherwise made a spectacle of because she chose to feed her baby in a manner or place that other people didn't like.

[sapphire_chan]

Yes, I do think there is something inherently wrong with our society's persistence in treating breasts as genitals.

I do think that has a lot to do with the anti-NIPers who compare breastfeeding to urinating and defecating.

[Cyann]

Yes and no. I do think that "indiscreet" nursing affects some people very negatively, and that those negative opinions will transfer over to NIP-ing in general, to some extent.

However, what we're really working toward is a social change, and social change is rarely accomplished by people striving to be meek and inoffensive. Ultimately, we want people to be comfortable with nursing in public in *all* its forms -- we want the mother of the newborn with latch problems and the mother of the twiddling toddler to be just as accepted as the mother of the "ideally nursing" three month old. And there's no way to do that but just to do it.

[VijayOwens]

I think so many of us assume that it's the exposed boob or nipple that's the issue, that as long as the boob is covered, that people can't complain... but it's actually the *act* of nursing that disturbs people. It doesn't matter what they can *see* it matters that they *know* what is going on... and they don't like it.

So discreet or not, some people are always going to have a problem with NIP. And I don't think they will ever feel like *they* are the ones with the problem if we scurry off to the restroom or the car every time our babies (or toddlers, or preschoolers, lol) need to nurse.

So I don't think being discreet or not helps or hurts lactivism, it is about the mother and *her* comfort level with exposing her body in public. Personally I don't mind NIP anywhere and everywhere, but I try not to flash anyone. But that's about me not wanting strangers to see my body, not about the lactivism movement. That's my version of discreet. But if someone said "you have to do that in the restroom" I would not comply. That goes beyond discreet into discrimination, IMO.

-Vijay

[gingerbane]

Yes.

[TefferTWH]

I think that for people who accept the breast as a way of nuturing a child that indiscreet nursing is fine. For those who think of the breast as a sexual object or are starting to come around about the ways they view breasts, indiscreet nursing is harmful. In the first case, that person is only going to be offended by you feeding your child with a sexual object and whipping it out and leaving it there isn't going to change his/her mind. The second case might be hindered severly by indiscreet nursing though; I can easily imagine a modest woman who is considering BFing or NIP thinking that she doesn't want to do it if she has to expose herself that much to get the job done. How would you feel if you knew that your indiscreet nursing had made a mother change her mind about trying it? Sure it's not your responsibility to help her, but what if she just can't imagine doing what you do and hasn't seen nursing in any other way?

I also seriously cannot see the argument that seeing more indiscreet nursing will acclimatize people to it and make it more acceptable. You would never teach your kids to not be afraid of/uncomfortable with something by just throwing it in their faces, so why would that work with uncomfortable adults and nursing?

[Jaysfamily]

I've always tried to NIP discreetly, because that's what I'm comfortable with. I love nursing shirts, but never used a blanket and never could figure out how to nurse in a sling. Sometimes I'd use a cloth diaper to cover my belly or the top of my breast if I didn't have a nursing shirt on. I don't NIP anymore because I prefer to nurse my acrobatic toddler while lying down. Most people in my area are surprised just to see a baby nursing, that I figured discreet nursing was pushing them far enough as it is. I only have one child so far, so I might loosen up a bit with future children, who knows. Most nursing moms here will give their babies bottles while in public because they're afraid of the attention it will cause. Even though my son had to be supplemented, I was always adamant about nursing him in public and giving bottles at home, just to try to help make NIP more acceptable and to maybe encourage other mothers. So, I guess I can see both sides. I think it would maybe hurt lactivism if a mom were to take her whole top off and go completely topless to NIP. I'm cool if a mom pulls her whole breast out. I'm just not comfortable doing that myself. I think it's reasonable to expect to see nipple while the baby is latching on or off too.

I agree that the underlying issue is that the breast is viewed as a sexual object that is strictly for a man's pleasure in our society. I think that alone is a problem, even without breastfeeding or NIP issues! I could go into a long rant about that and other related issues, lol! My husband agrees too.

My response to the comments that defication and urination being natural, but not polite to do in front of others is this: The tongue can also be a sexual object, but I'm not asking anyone else to only ever eat under a blanket should I happen to catch a glimpse of their tongue.

[saimeiyu]

Originally Posted by TefferTWH

I also seriously cannot see the argument that seeing more indiscreet nursing will acclimatize people to it and make it more acceptable. You would never teach your kids to not be afraid of/uncomfortable with something by just throwing it in their faces, so why would that work with uncomfortable adults and nursing?

Eh, to be honest, I'm not really counting on converting any adults. Adults are usually pretty set in their ways. It's the younger generations I'm concerned with.