Do you think lack of discreetness hurts lactivism? - Page 5

[purple_kangaroo]

I have seen a number of commenters here saying that when someone seemed uncomfortable with or made a comment about their nursing, they squirted the person with milk. That, I would call in-your-face.

[saimeiyu]

Originally Posted by kaylee18

You know what I think hurts lactivism? This constant back-and-forth about how to nurse in public and which way is better. It pits us against each other when we could be supporting one another and working together to remove the barriers to nursing that others may encounter. LLL officially takes no stance for or against nursing covers/discreetness/modesty. For a reason.

: ITA

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo

I have seen a number of commenters here saying that when someone seemed uncomfortable with or made a comment about their nursing, they squirted the person with milk. That, I would call in-your-face.

I have never ever ever in my however-many-years here or in real life ever seen anyone write that they squirted someone in the face. I've seen people say that they wanted to, or suggest it as a joke. I think that we all know that to do so would hardly be lactivism and would also probably be considered a form of assault.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by kaylee18

You know what I think hurts lactivism? This constant back-and-forth about how to nurse in public and which way is better. It pits us against each other when we could be supporting one another and working together to remove the barriers to nursing that others may encounter. LLL officially takes no stance for or against nursing covers/discreetness/modesty. For a reason.

Amen, sister.

[elanorh]

Since we just had friends visit, whose children were bf'd but not for a full year (NIP was a concern for the mom, modesty ) .... And I'm currently nursing a 1 1/2 year old .... I've been thinking about this, as I found myself thinking that I hoped I wouldn't make the dh uncomfortable (she's an old dear friend from college but this is only the third time I've seen him, including their wedding).

I think that the posters who say that the concept of discreetness is what hurts lactivism, are correct. It's not about how 'discreet' we are because 'discreet' is very much in the eye of the beholder. And some of the 'beholders' out there think that 'discreet' means that breastfeeding moms stay home or pump a bottle for when they go out in public (or just give a bottle of formula when that happens). And I think we all agree that those 'beholders'' solution is actually not breastfeeding in public, is it? It's at best, bottlefeeding breastmilk in public.

I think it's important that mothers nurse in a manner which is comfortable for them and for their child. I think it's important that they have confidence that they *can* breastfeed in the manner that works for them (whether that's under a nursing cover, or topless) without people being rude and verbally abusive towards them.

And I think that the more variations of a mother comfortably and confidently feeding her child in public, that children and adults are exposed to (no pun in tended ) -- the more aware they will become that when/if they have a child, they will be able to find a way to feed their child in public which works for them.

My friends have watched me evolve from a 'blanket mama' in the first few months of Ina's life, to a publicly breastfeeding mama of a 2 1/2 year old; they (if they were paying attention) watched me move from the blanket to nursing tops to regular shirts .... At this point, there are friends who've gone to NCAA Division 1 basketball games and sat next to me while I nursed a 16 month old.... I guess I'd say they've seen almost every variation there is, short of topless .... depending on what was going on.

We need to stress to expectant mothers that they need to nurse in a way that is comfortable for them; and that it may change as they become more adept and comfortable with nursing. And that it's OK. I think the more mothers who also know "Breastfeeding is legally protected in this state and is not considered indecent exposure," the better.

A young woman who sees a mother nursing 'indiscreetly' (whatever her own interpretation of that is), has still known that she has seen a woman nursing. A woman who's confident enough about it, that the thought hadn't crossed her mind that someone would find it indiscreet or offensive. For every young woman (or MIL or dh or whatever) who sees that an is offended and decides bf is not for them "if a woman must be so indiscreet," there are undoubtedly many more who think, "Well, if SHE can nurse that way, then I can certainly nurse MY way (whether it's a blanket or nursing top or a string bikini).

I think it's best to focus on how we can reasonably respond to people who tell us that they don't want us to NIP, rather than focusing on how 'discreet' people are.

I think it's sad that so often we women are used to enforce 'acceptable' behavior among our gender. So often, it's another woman (who breastfed, at least for awhile) who is saying "What's wrong with that floozy, throwing her breasts around in public!" Or who is being held up as the example. "My neighbor's DIL nursed all her babies until they were a year old, but she always went to a different room or pumped a bottle when they were in public."

And incidentally I think the best response to comments like that are, "Oh, I am so glad that worked well for her[insert comments about possible supply issues or barriers to X solution if desired]! What we are doing right now, works well for us. There are lots of different ways to feed a baby, we're feeding ours the way that works best for us." Or, "Since this is how babies are meant to be fed, and parenting is hard enough work without me adding something more into it like pumping ahead of time etc., I'm just doing this the efficient way."

[Silvercrest79]

Originally Posted by Silvercrest79

As for "throwing it out there" "letting it all hang out" or "whatever else you want to call it" IT DOES EXIST!!! I've seen it with my own eyes. Granted it was at a Breastfeeing walk but this city was/is not at all forward thinking and it was not ALL already breastfeeding mothers in attendance and someone walked from their table to the food table and back to their table with their entire shoulder/breast/and nipple hanging out in front of EVERYONE.

Does it say anywhere in this post or my other post in this thread that I was offended by this instance of boobage (EVEN in the total absence of a baby attatched to it, there was no baby nursing from it) or any other, or by the idea of NIP?

There were several posts saything that such a thing DOES NOT happen when in fact it does. What is there to misunderstand about my post? My point was someone walked around with their breast hanging out without a child attatched to it in front of mixed company (mixed being mothers not yet nursing and their husbands) and may very well have done harm than good for the cause.

I think this thread was originally about the cause...

[Silvercrest79]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

So, it was exactly like couples kissing and hugging in a Gay Pride parade? "OMG, they're doing THAT in PUBLIC!! I mean, nothing wrong with it, I'm sure, but do they have be so BLATANT?!"

(I really wish there was an eyebrow raising smiling. Like Mr. Spock from Star Trek.)

#1 We don't have gay pride parades here.
#2 I don't think non gays would be going to a gay pride parade to learn more information on gay pride or to see how gays act, or to get their s/o other more comfortable to the idea of gay pride because they wanted to become gay. (wow that might be a record word count in one post for the word gay )

but then I could be wrong on #2... wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

[purple_kangaroo]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

I have never ever ever in my however-many-years here or in real life ever seen anyone write that they squirted someone in the face. I've seen people say that they wanted to, or suggest it as a joke. I think that we all know that to do so would hardly be lactivism and would also probably be considered a form of assault.

There are dozens of posts about this here on MDC and elsewhere. I did a quick search in just the breastfeeding forums here on MDC on a few terms like "squirted" and "sprayed" and found at least 10 posts where people said that they or someone else squirted someone who annoyed or offended them, and dozens more where people advised others to squirt someone, threatened to squirt someone, or said they would squirt someone if they found themselves in a given situation (these were not clearly joking, although there were many more that were joking or tongue-in-cheek in addition to the ones saying things like "REALLY DO IT, PLEASE.").

I can post the links to the posts, but I'm not sure if that's allowed?

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by purple_kangaroo

There are dozens of posts about this here on MDC and elsewhere. I did a quick search in just the breastfeeding forums here on MDC on a few terms like "squirted" and "sprayed" and found at least 10 posts where people said that they or someone else squirted someone who annoyed or offended them, and dozens more where people advised others to squirt someone, threatened to squirt someone, or said they would squirt someone if they found themselves in a given situation (these were not clearly joking, although there were many more that were joking or tongue-in-cheek in addition to the ones saying things like "REALLY DO IT, PLEASE.").

I can post the links to the posts, but I'm not sure if that's allowed?

It's not. By all means, if you can find a post where someone actually squirted someone else with breastmilk as an act of anger or retaliation, report it. But honestly, I've been around here for years and I have never, ever seen anyone actually purposely assault someone else with their breastmilk.

ETA: Also, even if someone did such a ridiculous thing, it would have absolutely zero to do with lactivism or the purpose of this thread. Bringing it up here is a complete red herring.

[ramama]

I NIP exactly how I nurse at home (minus the occasional laying-down, which I may do at the park but not at the bookstore). I don't wear a nursing top or a cover. I don't even wear a nursing bra for that matter. I don't think anyone would accuse me of being indiscrete, although discretion is no where on my list of things to do.

I also think that the idea of the "in your face" BFing mama is an urban myth. Like the proverbial fishing story, non-BFers like to sit around telling stories about the crazy BFing lady who flapped her boobs in their face and took of her shirt and bra to nurse in church or wherever, and OMG she was nursing an 8mo old, hasn't she ever heard of a bottle?

I am of two minds when it comes to the desire for cultural and societal change regarding breastfeeding. On one hand, just saying "oh well, it's our culture and change is slow" is incorrect and places the blame on greater society rather than individuals. Our inability to separate the sexual function of the breast from the biological function of the breast is not that ingrained in our culture. Arguably, only over the past 40 or 50 years has this overpowering sexualization of the breast occured, around the time when the most important familial relationship shifted from the mother/child relationship to the husband/wife relationship. It's like complaining about the rude person on the subway in NYC and someone shrugging and saying "Well, it's NYC, what do you expect" as if that excuses the behavior. Our culture really isn't all that old here in America. There have been cultural practices much more ingrained that have been eradicated or are recieving massive media attention in order to eradicate (such as FGM, ethnic cleansing, child soldiers, aparatheid, etc.).

At the same time, I do see a big problem with the normalization of bottle-feeding. I just don't know...I can see both sides.

Perhaps a BFing mother should go out and NIP and rather than say "This is how our culture should be" she should say "I am part of this culture too, I am doing what is natural, therefore, this IS my culture." We shouldn't act like we're the counter-culture.

There are still many people in our society who are uncomfortable with interracial relationships even though desegregation happened 40 years ago. Yeah, change is slow if you let it be. The time comes when you just have to tell someone that they're WRONG and stop making excuses.

[tbone_kneegrabber]

Originally Posted by Silvercrest79

#1 We don't have gay pride parades here.
#2 I don't think non gays would be going to a gay pride parade to learn more information on gay pride or to see how gays act, or to get their s/o other more comfortable to the idea of gay pride because they wanted to become gay. (wow that might be a record word count in one post for the word gay )

but then I could be wrong on #2... wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

You are VERY wrong about #2.

There's a thing called SOFFA (significant others, family, friends, and allies) you can be SOFFA to any cause!

[annettemarie]

I have removed several posts from this thread. Please keep the User Agreement in mind when posting:

Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

Thanks, all, and please feel free to PM me with any questions or concerns.

[Hippie Mama in MI]

I nursed in public when neccessary, but I didn't like it much because of the odd looks I would get. I didn't know much about lactivism then. I would cover my son with a receiving blanket, or sometimes I would even nurse him in the restroom. I just didn't like being stared at by unfriendly eyes.

Even my cousin's wife, who has 2 of her own babies, was upset by me nursing my child in their living room at Christmastime. She said loudly, "If you're looking for privacy, the back bedroom works great."

I hope I have another baby, now that I am more of a lactivist I won't be covering up or scuttling to some back room to hide. In fact I hope I have two more. So I can tandem nurse at the mall.

Hee hee..

[purple_kangaroo]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

It's not. By all means, if you can find a post where someone actually squirted someone else with breastmilk as an act of anger or retaliation, report it. But honestly, I've been around here for years and I have never, ever seen anyone actually purposely assault someone else with their breastmilk.

ETA: Also, even if someone did such a ridiculous thing, it would have absolutely zero to do with lactivism or the purpose of this thread. Bringing it up here is a complete red herring.

There was one just in the past week or so. But I was speaking rather tongue-in-cheek anyway. Squirting someone with milk is really the only example I can think of that would literally be "in-your-face" breastfeeding (which was being discussed in this thread). Anything else probably doesn't fit that definition.

I wasn't trying to derail the thread; I was trying to say, "In-your-face is squirting someone. Anything short of that is probably fine. Staying in your own personal space (wherever you happen to be standing or sitting or whatever) nursing your child without regard to others watching is not being in-your-face."

I'm confused, though--why would it be grounds for post reporting/removal for people to post things like, "My brother made a comment about not wanting to see me nurse, so I squirted him" or "My hero--the woman who taught me to nurse confidently in public--was a woman I once saw squirt a stranger with breastmilk when he told her that he was uncomfortable seeing her nurse." Is mentioning such things not allowed on this board? I couldn't find anything in the TOS about it.

[annettemarie]

We don't host threads that encourage illegal activity. Actually squirting someone with breastmilk could probably be considered illegal at worst, and disrespectful at best. I think it's covered under #1 in the UA. If you want to discuss the User Agreement further, please feel free to PM me.

ETA: Also, I do see what you're saying now, and it's funny. I just honestly, in six years of being here, have never heard of anyone actually squirting someone with breastmilk as an act of hostility.

[purple_kangaroo]

Oh, ok. That makes sense. Thanks!