Radical unschooling and organized sports - Page 3

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Kessed

But please don't insult recreational team sports. Just because the kids aren't good enough or have enough money to play on a high level team - that doesn't mean that most of them don't care.

How did the OP insult recreational team sports? I get the feeling that she'd thought the emphasis in Ultimate would be on the joy of playing -- which to me is a wonderful thought and not an insult at all.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Believe me, I want to call him a coersive jerk. I do. I'm thinking the OP's dc wants to play on a team with a nice guy who is doing what he can to keep them safe. I am not an organized sports person, so inside I want to jump all over him. lol

I just want to say, again and for all time , I do not think of this guy as a jerk. I could be wrong, but I am a pretty intuitive judge of character and I don't think I am. I do not think he's intending to make things worse for my son or hurt him in any way. I think he's just not really thinking about it at all, and just behaving in a habitual way, the way that almost all adults in our culture do, even parents who love their kids. I think he's got in his head rules about the way things are "supposed" to be, the right order of things in the universe is that whoever gets to be in charge gets to be obeyed unconditionally, proper reverence paid to convention is next to godliness, etc. He's not mean about it, though. I've seen some practices (softball and football) where the coaches and parents are so incredibly mean to the kids, and the kids (except for a few star players) are clearly miserable. It makes me want to weep (and gives me some understanding of why we are such a war-loving culture.) I wouldn't touch that sort of thing with a ten foot pole.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

We did try playing soccer with some other homeschoolers once but there was a disconnect with communication. The organizer called it not competitive which I took too literally. I didn't understand why my suggestions of playing with more than one ball so the younger kids would have more opportunity to kick was assumed to be a joke.

That sounds like something I'd suggest! It's a great idea -- and I hate it that most people are so locked into a "one way of doing things" mentality, they can't see how much more fun an activity might be with a little tweak.

I've never understood why people insist on taking away a chair when small children play "musical chairs." I've found that it's just as exciting to little ones to rush and find a chair when the music stops, when there's a chair there for everyone. I see no need to turn it into a stressful, tear-inducing activity.

But some seem to think children will be ill-prepared for the "real world" if someone doesn't get kicked out of the game each time the music stops. I say, I guess it really depends on your world-view. My world-view is one that's centered around an abundant God, with plenty of fun and good stuff for everyone.

True, many are not experiencing the abundance -- but I see that as a challenge to all of us to work at making good things more accessible, not as "evidence" that life's really cr@ppy so we better prepare our 3yo's by taking a chair away.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I just want to say, again and for all time , I do not think of this guy as a jerk. I could be wrong, but I am a pretty intuitive judge of character and I don't think I am. I do not think he's intending to make things worse for my son or hurt him in any way. I think he's just not really thinking about it at all, and just behaving in a habitual way, the way that almost all adults in our culture do, even parents who love their kids. I think he's got in his head rules about the way things are "supposed" to be, the right order of things in the universe is that whoever gets to be in charge gets to be obeyed unconditionally, proper reverence paid to convention is next to godliness, etc. He's not mean about it, though. I've seen some practices (softball and football) where the coaches and parents are so incredibly mean to the kids, and the kids (except for a few star players) are clearly miserable. It makes me want to weep (and gives me some understanding of why we are such a war-loving culture.) I wouldn't touch that sort of thing with a ten foot pole.

So does your kid want to play on his team?

How long is the run?

How many paractices have there been and what has your child decided about it?

I've not run into any of those war -mongering- you-can't -marry-who-you-love nutso coaches here in MA , lol , so I can't relate to your particular coaching experinces.

Of course, we do have our anit-war mongering MA coaches who still want kids to warm their mus-kels. lol

Please tell me how much they need to run, how long, and why the coach won't let your kid walk!

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I've never understood why people insist on taking away a chair when small children play "musical chairs." I've found that it's just as exciting to little ones to rush and find a chair when the music stops, when there's a chair there for everyone. I see no need to turn it into a stressful, tear-inducing activity.

Oh! Oh! Oh, I can answer this one in a different way! I went to a party where the children had to help each other onto the chairs. It was awesome. The kids sat on laps and the point of the game was to get everyone together on one chair at the end. It was so cuuuuuuute.

I have not seen anyone play Musical Chairs the other way since I was a kid. I know Parents mag had a whole artilce about this when my oldest was about 5. (He's 19 now). I thought that was cool. Nobody is left out, and everyone has to help each other.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Oh! Oh! Oh, I can answer this one in a different way! I went to a party where the children had to help each other onto the chairs. It was awesome. The kids sat on laps and the point of the game was to get everyone together on one chair at the end. It was so cuuuuuuute.

That sounds real fun! We'll have to try it here.

I have not seen anyone play Musical Chairs the other way since I was a kid. I know Parents mag had a whole artilce about this when my oldest was about 5. (He's 19 now). I thought that was cool. Nobody is left out, and everyone has to help each other.

You mean you haven't seen it played where one person had to get kicked out each time the music stopped? Wow! That's the only way I've seen other people do it -- I'm the only person I know of, who doesn't say, "You're out!" Maybe that's a difference between East Coast and Midwest?

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

That sounds real fun! We'll have to try it here.



You mean you haven't seen it played where one person had to get kicked out each time the music stopped? Wow! That's the only way I've seen other people do it -- I'm the only person I know of, who doesn't say, "You're out!" Maybe that's a difference between East Coast and Midwest?

\
Nope, not since I played it in Kindergarten. I personally thought it was fun in K. I don't mind not winning. I even buy losing lottery tickets on occassion. Which reminds me of something: we played the pile one at a college Halloween party I went to years ago. It was a bunch of grad students from UC, Davis. lol Those nerds know fun.

I had totally forgotten about this and I woke up at 3am and almost turned on my computer to post! I emailed my dh this morning and he emailed back "Good times". hehehehe

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Which reminds me of something: we played the pile one at a college Halloween party I went to years ago. It was a bunch of grad students from UC, Davis. lol Those nerds know fun.

I had totally forgotten about this and I woke up at 3am and almost turned on my computer to post! I emailed my dh this morning and he emailed back "Good times". hehehehe

Oh, and I'd thought it was little kids who played the pile one!

This brings up an interesting question, which the OP already introduced: Why is it that when adults do games/sports, they have the freedom the make adaptations to increase their enjoyment -- but adults can be such sticks-in-the-mud when it comes to adapting games to what the children really want?

For instance, I can imagine all kinds of silly warnings I'd get about possible injury if I tried the pileup game with little ones. Still, I hope to try it anyway. (:

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Oh, and I'd thought it was little kids who played the pile one!

. (:

No, I've seen the kid pile one. It's so cute.

I think people do adapt. I also don''t think kids need adults telling them what to play all the time.

My questions in this thread is not related to not adapting-- I mean can the child walk the warmup? It's related to I have no idea what is going on at the practice, and whether the expectations are off or whether it's safe not to do a warm. All I know the coach is nice and the OP's child doesn't like the warmup. Can he walk it? How long is it? Is it a reasonable expectataion to have children warm up before an Ultimate Sport?

[bellymama]

okay, people...i get the "joy of playing" thing, i do. sports, dancing, all athletic activities should be for the joy. but sometimes the joy of playing equals some hard work. why is hard work considered bad? i love dancing more than anything but my child, but sometimes it really hurts...but that is what is required for me to become a better dancer. i just don't get the big deal.

i mean, i get it, you are a radical unschooler. i get it. you want your kid to be free to learn on his own, and to not have to follow rules that make no sense and all that. i get it.
but if you put your kid on a team, the kid is going to be expected to participate with the team. it's a no brainer. the only and obvious solution here is that your kid shouldn't be on a team, that he should just play pick-up games at his leisure. no matter how much you love the concept of free will and no rules and all that, other people might not. and teamwork requires a bit of cooperation from all members of the team.
i totally respect the OP's wishes to provide her son with a certain lifestyle. that's her perogative and i am sure it's what's best for her kid. but you can't expect other people to feel the same way, nor are they responsible for making sure that everything works exactly the way that one specific kid needs. in most places, regardless of how "competitive" a sporting team is, practice requires some warm-up, and some stamina building, and some activities that are going to create muscle fatigue, which to some people equals some discomfort during the period where they are building up the stamina and muscle memory that is required for the activity. ultimate frisbee requires a lot of running. so if your kid doesn't run, i don't get how he will build up the stamina required to be a decent player.
i am not an "athlete", i am a dancer...and i am not in competition dancing, so nothing that i do is in any way to be "better" or to "win"...my students still participate in a very "intense" warm-up, including conditioning the muscles in the legs, abdomen, arms, and building up stamina to dance for long periods of time with out getting out of breath. and it's not because i take it to seriously, or because it's all about winning...it's because you need to do that in order to be safe. if you don't have the strength to do the warm-up, how will you have the strength to do the activity.
now, if a student comes to me and says :"i'm not feeing well, or i hurt myself" then i of course will provide them with an alternative or allow them to sit out of certain parts of the warm-up. but if they were to just not feel like doing it, i would have a problem. luckily, i have never had a student who didn't give it 100%, they come ready to particpate fully in the class.

so again, the only solution is to just let your kid play pick-up games. because the coach is doing exactly what a coach should do, provide a warm-up for the players who's safety he is responsible for.

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by bellymama

okay, people...i get the "joy of playing" thing, i do. sports, dancing, all athletic activities should be for the joy. but sometimes the joy of playing equals some hard work. why is hard work considered bad? i love dancing more than anything but my child, but sometimes it really hurts...but that is what is required for me to become a better dancer. i just don't get the big deal.

ITA.

As I said before - I have coached many different levels of soccer. I had 1 team for 1 outdoor then 1 indoor and then 1 outdoor season (in a row)... So I basically had mostly the same kids. The first season they were all 14 and still really interested in playing soccer and working hard. We did OK. Same with the indoor season. We didn't win too many games - but the kids practiced hard, played harder and really found joy in playing soccer.

Then that second outdoor season - a few of our really committed players weren't able to play - and the dynamics of the team changed. It was really rough. Those kids were OK with having a loosing season when everyone tried hard and pulled their weight. But suddenly - some of the girls started to completely slack off. They didn't work hard during the practices. The overall level the team played at dropped over the season rather than going up. We went from being an OK team - to loosing at the very bottom.

They found NO joy in that. None.

They knew they were loosing because we didn't have enough players with stamina to play the whole game. By the second half of each game - we would be down to ~8 players who were still in good shape and have to put 3 tired kids on the field. And that really hurt us. It was demoralizing all around.

There can be joy in loosing. But, IME, that come when kids loose and they know that eveyone tried their best.

[bellymama]

and by better dancer, i don't mean like, i want to be the best dancer and win a prize, i just mean that i want to be the best i can be, i want to give it 100% of my ability, and i want to fulfill my potential as a dancer. just wanted to clarify that i didn't mean it on a competitive level.

[umami_mommy]

Originally Posted by happyhippiemama

Really? Your nine year old son told you that he felt that way? That's some pretty advanced self-awareness, abstract thinking, communication, and vocabulary for a nine year old.

Are you sure you're not projecting a little bit, and your son just wants to get out of running because he doesn't like it?

my son is pretty clear about expressing this with his dad and he's not 6 yet. why wouldn't a nine year old understand this?

and what's wrong with "getting out" of running if he doesn't like it? why should he be forced to do something he doesn't like. that seems pretty disrespectful to me. this is the unschooling forum right?

[4evermom]

I doubt anyone thinks there is a problem with hard work or thinks it is bad. I'm quite fond of it, myself, when it is internally motivated.

And I do hope my ds learns the difference between the "good" pain of tired or sore muscles and the "bad" pain of injuries that need to be allowed to heal. My dh doesn't seem to be able to make that distinction.

[pookel]

Originally Posted by honeybeedreams

and what's wrong with "getting out" of running if he doesn't like it? why should he be forced to do something he doesn't like.

Because he signed up for the team?

:

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

This brings up an interesting question, which the OP already introduced: Why is it that when adults do games/sports, they have the freedom the make adaptations to increase their enjoyment -- but adults can be such sticks-in-the-mud when it comes to adapting games to what the children really want?

I don't know.

Ds and I always played an adapted tag game we call "hide and go tag". I'm always "it", He hides, sneaks around to places I've already looked. When I find him (I wait until the kids seem ready to want to be found. They get noisier, lol.), he runs away. And he can freeze me if I get too close. Being really chased was too scary for him so we started the freeze feature so he could slow things down and not get in that panicky, fight or flight, state.

But random strange adults would shout out that that wasn't fair. The kids shouldn't be allowed to freeze me (I'd end up playing with all the kids).

[umami_mommy]

Originally Posted by pookel

Because he signed up for the team?

:

eh? he "signed up" to play frisby.

forcing a child to do something he doesn't want to do but the adults feel is best for him is not what unschooling is all about. though it might be what the rest of the world is all about.

would you treat an adult like this? besides, who's in charge of his body? the adults or himself?

:

[Kessed]

Originally Posted by honeybeedreams

eh? he "signed up" to play frisby.

forcing a child to do something he doesn't want to do but the adults feel is best for him is not what unschooling is all about. though it might be what the rest of the world is all about.

would you treat an adult like this? besides, who's in charge of his body? the adults or himself?

:

He didn't sign up "just" to play frisbee. He signed up for a team - and that includes things like running when the coach says so, or playing a certain position, or doing a specific drill.

If he just wanted to play frisbee - then they should have found a drop in thing, rather than a team.

Teams come with rules.

What's so hard to understand about that.

As an adult I have played high level soccer - and I tell you - I was not 'in charge' of my body in the way you mean. I could quit - but if I wanted to keep playing on those teams - I did what the coaching staff asked.

I didn't get to pick and choose what things I did and didn't do. Sure - on one team we were in charge of our own fitness and warm-ups... But that didn't work very well. The team got relegated at the end of the season because we didn't have the stamina to play. I switched to a MUCH better team with a fitness schedule and much more regimented practices. And that team did much better.

[LilyGrace]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

This brings up an interesting question, which the OP already introduced: Why is it that when adults do games/sports, they have the freedom the make adaptations to increase their enjoyment -- but adults can be such sticks-in-the-mud when it comes to adapting games to what the children really want?

I think there's a HUGE difference between doing games/sports, and being on a team, if that makes sense. No matter how old you are you follow the coach. If you don't, you're probably not going to be playing.

B's dad plays softball (all grownups, mind you!) and if he doesn't show up to batting practice or doesn't feel like doing parts of the group practice, he's batting last. And he's in outfield. The coach has told some to just go home when they show up for the game because they're not giving the effort needed.

Now, if it was a bunch of his buddies out there on the field playing for fun, yeah, they could make the rules how ever they want. But as part of a league that's not going to happen.

It's not a kids vs. grownups thing here. It's a coached vs. noncoached thing.

[pookel]

Originally Posted by honeybeedreams

would you treat an adult like this? besides, who's in charge of his body? the adults or himself?

As a matter of fact, I require my employees to do things every day. My husband even requires them to do physical labor! The horror!

If he doesn't like the coach, he is free to quit the team. What's ridiculous is joining a team and then refusing to do what the coach tells you to. Would we be having this same discussion if an Army recruit called his mom from boot camp and said, "Mom, they're trying to make me do push-ups! And I'm listening to my body, and my body says it hurts!"

I certainly hope not.