Time-Outs and "Obedience" - appropriate for Montessori school?

[monkeybum]

DS (4years) just started at a new Montessori school last week, (they are in the Summer Camp program until Sept, but it is the same teachers, same rooms, just non-Montessori activities during the summer). I was so excited to get him in to this school, he was on the wait-list for a year. I toured and interviewed several schools, and finally made the decision to switch him to this school. It has an excellent reputation "around town", (people who's parenting styles I am not familiar with though...) and is considered an excellent school in terms of academics. It is also the only Montessori school in my town that offers some kind of care 12 months of a year, all day (i.e. includes before/after care, summer camps and Christmas/March break camps). I WOHM FT so I need something consistent for my DS all year, every day.

It is not cheap, (it is a private school that goes to grade 8) and we made the decision to move him here from his previous daycare because I really think he'll thrive in a Montessori environment. I was impressed at my visits, I had heard great things, the location is great, it provides consistent care all year, etc.

BUT...on his first day, I witnessed the teacher giving a 4 yo boy a time-out for grabbing a toy from another child. They made him go and sit by himself on a chair away from the other kids and told him to "think about what he had done". Then they eventually led him back to the group, and said, "next time you want a toy, you will use your..." and he said right on queu, "...words". So obviously this is not the first time it has happened. I was just shocked. I was told in my tour they didn't use time-outs. Apparently they do. They didn't speak meanly, they were calm, but everyone was staring and I felt bad for him. I felt he was humiliated a little, ostracized, singled out.

So I am talking to the "head of school" today and I mention the time-out to her and ask if they routinely use time-outs. Her response was that it depends on the level of the child's "disobedience", (her words ) if he was routinely "disobedient", and this was a method that they found worked on this particular child, then yes, they would, but that it wouldn't normally be a "knee-jerk" reaction; they would try to use other methods first. She said that if the child was "extremely disobedient", then they would ultimately remove the child from the class.

I told her that I was surprised as I hadn't thought that "obedience" and "time-outs" were in line with my understanding of Montessori philosophy. She had no comment and just said she was sure it was done appropriately.

WTF? : Is this what I have signed up for? I have already paid a $1000 non-refundable deposit, plus $1200 first months fees, and they say you are committed to paying for the whole year if you cancel. I have spent hundreds of dollars on the school uniform, I have lost my son's spot at his other daycare, I don't have any other Montessori options, and there are still lots of reasons why this school is a good choice for us. But, are these things appropriate for a Montessori school?

What impressed me during the tour was how polite and calm all the children were, even the grade 8's politely saying "excuse me" and smiling "thank you" as they passed us in the hall, all the Casa children working quietly and independently, the teachers using calm quiet voices when asking the children to "quiet down" or use "walking feet in the classroom". Everything seemed so serene and peaceful (for a room full of 18 3-6 year olds). But now I am wondering, were they made to be "obedient"? Is this why none of them "misbehaved"?

Is it possible that this woman just used a poor choice of words, and if my son ends up having to sit on a chair by himself, "thinking about what he's done..." is it going to do him long term harm? We just don't do time-outs at our house and the whole thing is just surprising to say the least...

Now I will say that I was equally shocked by how the rest of the children all politey asked other children if they could borrow a toy, or share a toy, or join in a game, and the responses were equally polite. I kept expecting "normal" 4 yo behavior, grabbing of toys, arguing, etc. so I guess what they are doing is "working"...

Thoughts?

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by monkeybum

BUT...on his first day, I witnessed the teacher giving a 4 yo boy a time-out for grabbing a toy from another child. They made him go and sit by himself on a chair away from the other kids and told him to "think about what he had done". Then they eventually led him back to the group, and said, "next time you want a toy, you will use your..." and he said right on queu, "...words". So obviously this is not the first time it has happened. I was just shocked. I was told in my tour they didn't use time-outs. Apparently they do. They didn't speak meanly, they were calm, but everyone was staring and I felt bad for him. I felt he was humiliated a little, ostracized, singled out.

It's hard to say without seeing it myself. Generally speaking, removal from the group is the consequence for this. That is different from "time out." One of the largest differences has to do more with the purpose. A Time Out is more a punitive thing, and the child knows it. I continually see preschool teachers give the advice of "put them in time out for one minute for every year old they are."

With Montessori, the child sits off and observes the other children, returning when he is ready. Here is a description of a discussion Dorothy Fisher had when she visited the first Casa dei Bambini. The language is from 1912, so it uses some terms we would not use today, so take that into consideration as to how "harsh" it sounds at points:

I asked, of course, the question which obsesses every new observer in a Children’s Home, “ But what do you do when a child is naughty ? Sometimes, even if not often, you surely must encounter the kicking, screaming, snatching, hair-pulling ‘ bad ’ child ! ” I was told then that the health of such a child is looked into at once, such perverted violence being almost certainly the result of a deranged physical condition. If nothing pathological can be discovered, he is treated as a morally sick child, given a little table by himself, from which he can look on at the cheerful, ordered play of the schoolroom, allowed any and all toys he desires, petted, soothed, indulged, pitied, but ( of course this is the vital point ) severely let alone by the other children, who are told that he is “ sick ” and so cannot play with them until he gets well. This quiet isolation, with its object-lesson of good-natured play among the other children, has a hypnotically calming effect, the child’s naughtiness for very lack of food to feed upon, or resistance to blow its flames, disappears and dies away.

To put it in terms of how we would describe it now, a child who is taking another child's materials in the classroom is disrupting that child's work. To protect that child's work, we need to remove the disruptive child. If the child is disrupting a group activity and does not stop when asked, we need to remove the child from the group. This is a natural consequence.

While the child is away, the child can observe the group or the rest of the class to see a better way to act in the situation and see how others are working with each other (or working alone). Nobody may bother him while he's observing and anyone that does is just told that he needs to be an observer in the classroom right now. (Most children are used to not bothering us when we are observing and are used to not bothering other adult observers, so this is not a problem usually). Another option is to sit him at a table and bring him whatever material he desires. The loss of freedom to get up and choose the materials often brings about this change. The child is free to re-join the group when he or she is ready, so it's not really a "time out" in the way we think of it.

So I am talking to the "head of school" today and I mention the time-out to her and ask if they routinely use time-outs. Her response was that it depends on the level of the child's "disobedience", (her words ) if he was routinely "disobedient", and this was a method that they found worked on this particular child, then yes, they would, but that it wouldn't normally be a "knee-jerk" reaction; they would try to use other methods first. She said that if the child was "extremely disobedient", then they would ultimately remove the child from the class.

I told her that I was surprised as I hadn't thought that "obedience" and "time-outs" were in line with my understanding of Montessori philosophy. She had no comment and just said she was sure it was done appropriately.

WTF? : Is this what I have signed up for? I have already paid a $1000 non-refundable deposit, plus $1200 first months fees, and they say you are committed to paying for the whole year if you cancel. I have spent hundreds of dollars on the school uniform, I have lost my son's spot at his other daycare, I don't have any other Montessori options, and there are still lots of reasons why this school is a good choice for us. But, are these things appropriate for a Montessori school?

I wasn't there, so I cannot say. I will give this advice, however...be careful how you observe discipline towards other children than your own. You never know what the exact situation is.

Even if it was a time out done in a way that is completely and totally contrary to the Montessori Philosophy and even if the school knows that, it may be something where the child is seeing a doctor for certain behavioral problems and the doctor, school, and parents want to try this method to see what happens. The school will definitely not give out that much information about it.

What impressed me during the tour was how polite and calm all the children were, even the grade 8's politely saying "excuse me" and smiling "thank you" as they passed us in the hall, all the Casa children working quietly and independently, the teachers using calm quiet voices when asking the children to "quiet down" or use "walking feet in the classroom". Everything seemed so serene and peaceful (for a room full of 18 3-6 year olds). But now I am wondering, were they made to be "obedient"? Is this why none of them "misbehaved"?

It doesn't sound like it. I see a clear difference between a child that sincerely says, "Hello" and "Thank you" vs. one that has been told to do it and that's the reason for doing it. Again, I'm not anywhere near the school, so I can't say.

Now I will say that I was equally shocked by how the rest of the children all politey asked other children if they could borrow a toy, or share a toy, or join in a game, and the responses were equally polite. I kept expecting "normal" 4 yo behavior, grabbing of toys, arguing, etc. so I guess what they are doing is "working"...

Thoughts?

Or, from the Montessori perspective, what you saw was normal 4 year old behavior. The biting, arguing, and grabbing of toys is abnormal behavior.

It's hard to say without being there to see it, but the event itself doesn't sounds too far off the mark.
--A situation happened
--The child was removed
--There was nothing said about a certain time period he had to sit out, so I assume it's just when he is ready to come back.

The areas you do raise concern seem to be more that the whole class was watching, which they might tend to do if they notice it happening. A good thing to notice after that is what did they do afterwards? In a regular school, they tend to take fascination in the child and say how much trouble he is in and make a big deal out of it. ("Awwww...Jimmy's being bad.") In a Montessori room, they might simply watch it because someone's being removed, then forget about it and not worry about it because "Hey...I've been there too! No big deal!"

A good analogy would be like if you see a person getting pulled over. The "regular school" driver would stop and tell the driver how terrible a person he is. A Montessori driver would notice it and say, "How is my speed? Maybe I should slow down, too. I hope that guy's day gets better."

We're such hippies, whether we want to acknowledge it or not. :

Matt

[monkeybum]

Wow, thanks Matt, awesome response! You've actually helped alleviate my fears. I guess I just assumed it was a "time-out" and that "all time-outs are bad"..., when in reality, what you describe is exactly what happened. He was asked to give the toy back to the child, he was removed (kindly and gently) from the group, told to sit at a table on his own, then he was asked if he was ready to rejoin the group he had taken the toy from, (there were 3-4 of them playing together). He went back over and resumed play with those kids.

None of the kids pointed, laughed or anything, they just watched, but then resumed playing. They did not make a big deal out of it. They allowed him to rejoin the group no problem. Considering what would have happened in a "normal" classroom, it was all quite peaceful actually.

I guess I felt like he was being singled-out, but if the other kids didn't laugh or make a big deal out of it, maybe he wasn't actually being ostracized or humiliated or anything. I guess I just assumed he was b/c he was being singled out to sit by himself, but the other kids didn't laugh or anything.

And I never thought about that possibility - that this is a method that the parents etc. wanted to use. I think just the word "disobedience" struck me wrong too - don't like that word. Good point though about the sincere vs insincere "hello". This school actually stuck out to me b/c the children seem so genuinely well mannered, but happy about it, (compared to other schools I visited).

I DO really like that the other kids all ask each other if they can "borrow" a toy, or join in a group, and the response is always polite, so I guess whatever strategy they are using, it works.

Thanks for helping alleviate my concerns. I wasn't aware of the "removal from the group" aspect of Montessori, but I guess if it is done calmly and kindly, it can work.

[BCFD]

In my DD's classroom, they have 2 little rugs that have a multi-purpose. They are mainly used as the place to sit after lunch and before naps when all the children are using the toilet. It's a little "waiting area" for the restroom so they all aren't crowding into the room together. Sometimes my DD has been sitting there when I come to pick her up if the teacher is running a little ahead of schedule in getting the children down for their naps (DD is only there half days and I pick her up before naps). However, when a child is being disruptive, the teacher asks them to go take a seat in that area, but I have never heard it called a "time out" area. In fact, I've never seen the teacher saying, "Ok, you can come back". The child usually just regroups and then rejoins the class. They have a clear view of their classmates the entire time. I have seen every child on that rug at some point in time, but the teacher always does it in a gentle way and the children have never looked singled out or sad because they are sitting there.

I even asked DD once if it bothered her that she had to sit on that rug and wait for me sometimes and she said no. So, it clearly isn't looked at as a punishment area by the children, but more of a waiting or regrouping area.

DD's class only has 12 students (it's more of a transition room to the larger preschool class of 24), but I have no problem with the teacher using some sort of area like this as long as it's done gently. I can't imagine trying to keep control over 12 three to six year olds and not having a little area for them when they are being disruptive to the class.

In fact, yesterday the teacher said the kids were all getting antsy because they haven't been able to go outside all week (the entire state is on fire and the smoke is horrendous!). It made me feel really good knowing that she understands WHY they are being disruptive and is still able to practice patience with them.

[wrzos]

Sort of unrelated and sort of related. I know at our M school, the only incident that warrants total removal from the classroom is hitting/biting. I know this b/c a child bit my son once, and he (the biter) was immediately sent home, and my son kicked someone once and was also sent home. Their explanation is that the children WANT to be at school, and so this is the ultimate - hmm - they didn't say punishment but that is the only word coming to me right now... maybe consequence? for such an event (physical harm, etc.)

On the other hand, for other stuff they usually have the child come sit next to the teacher while she observes or teaches lessons. No time limit on when to get up and rejoin the classroom, just sort of a chill out period - the child determines when they are ready to rejoin.

They also have a rocking chair that I know my son has used when he gets emotional over something (for example, he really, really wanted to take care of a classroom plant over the summer, but wasn't allowed to, b/c the teacher knew we'd be out of the country for 2 months - he bawled about it, and was guided to the rocking chair as a safe place for him to regroup and gain control over his emotions.) Not told to sit there as a punishment, but rather provided a place to be sad and work thru it himself, kwim? I do something similar at home when he gets emotional about something - he sits quietly somewhere until he is calm enough to talk about it, and/or rejoin the activity. He has been taught yoga breathing, and will take deep breathes until he gets control.