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This is over the top - Page 2

post #21 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkTrance View Post
It is ABUSE, no doubt about it. He is abusing his children. And it has to stop NOW.
ITA with this. (Incidentally, I frequently find myself ITA-ing with MilkTrance, hmmm.)

Legally, SIL is dealing with some "failure to protect" on her own head. He can't hide that level of abuse from her. If she "doesn't know" it's going on, she is either lying or in denial.

I think you handled the moment very well. What happened to the little one at that point?
post #22 of 205
Blessed, the dad committed physical and emotional abuse against a baby. Within eye-and earshot of a group of people, lending to the idea that his self control is nil. You didn't say if there was any alcohol involved-just wondering?

You know that if he were to have been seen doing this anywhere else someone would have called the police or protective services. The baby had something thrown into his face--that's a huge deal. It sounds like your walking in on the scene broke the escalating anger/violence, thank goodness, and your calmness provided some stability to the situation.

Your sister's family needs help and support because the situation sounds explosive and dangerous to the children. What an awful experience.
post #23 of 205
I would probably try to talk to SIL. I grew up very close to 2 dom vio situations, and I know how futile that feels most of the time. At the same time, I would have loved to know there were adults in my family on my side - rather than just thinking there's nothing they can do. When you're in an abusive situation *not* of your own decision-making, it's incredibly empowering to know there are others fighting for your right not to be abused.
post #24 of 205
Thread Starter 
Someone asked about alcohol. We'd had wine with dinner but no one was close to being impaired at all.

My impression at the time was that he was verging on completely out of control. I definitely was being careful about engaging him, for my own safety.

I do worry about the safety of SIL and kids. I think we all wonder about that. There have been a couple of broken arms inthe boys, but never any obvious marks that would implicate hitting. I actually think they've been investigated by CPS based on some remarks SIL has made, but I don't think there has ever been anything substative.

BIL stayed locked in his room all morning and didn't come out for breakfast. He's out now, and sitting mostly off to the side. He's doing his constant correcting and punishing of his kids like he does, but absent the extreme yelling and threatening that occurred yesterday. I think he understands that this will not be tolerated here.

He's like a drill sargeant with them. You can tell he gets a kick out of yelling their names and having them startle with fear, come over and stand fearfully in front of him wondering what he's going to do. Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.

I was at work when that happened. Dh said he knew if I'd seen it I would have confronted BIL, and he's right.
post #25 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
Someone asked about alcohol. We'd had wine with dinner but no one was close to being impaired at all.

My impression at the time was that he was verging on completely out of control. I definitely was being careful about engaging him, for my own safety.

I do worry about the safety of SIL and kids. I think we all wonder about that. There have been a couple of broken arms inthe boys, but never any obvious marks that would implicate hitting. I actually think they've been investigated by CPS based on some remarks SIL has made, but I don't think there has ever been anything substative.

BIL stayed locked in his room all morning and didn't come out for breakfast. He's out now, and sitting mostly off to the side. He's doing his constant correcting and punishing of his kids like he does, but absent the extreme yelling and threatening that occurred yesterday. I think he understands that this will not be tolerated here.

He's like a drill sargeant with them. You can tell he gets a kick out of yelling their names and having them startle with fear, come over and stand fearfully in front of him wondering what he's going to do. Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.
I was at work when that happened. Dh said he knew if I'd seen it I would have confronted BIL, and he's right.
This man is abusive. Did anyone say anything about the fact that he was basically using a form of water torture on his child?!
post #26 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.
Holy cow, take those kids away from him! That's obscene!
post #27 of 205
Have you tried talking to the mom? He needs some kind of counseling because a full grown adult with this much trouble controlling himself needs to learns some new skills.

I'm sorry you are having to watch this.
post #28 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed
. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.

Holy cow, take those kids away from him! That's obscene!
__________________
OMG! I too am pregnant (due in two weeks) but just reading about this man is really scary to me. He sounds mean.

I hope that your sister will see how scary this person really is and that their family gets help.
post #29 of 205
OMG I'd have been crying right along with the one year old if I had been there.
He is being so abusive, yelling in their faces, throwing things at them, hold one of them under water. It's no wonder they tremble when he yells their name and makes them stand in front of him.
He's really in need of some counseling and anger management.
I fell so bad for the mom and kids.
post #30 of 205

cps needs an anonymous call to report his behavior. if he has had them called before tne this call would show them he needs more services. holding that child under water for splashing is torture. the fact that they are scared of him is abuse. emotiontal abuse. i would call cps. if i knew who he was or where he was at i would call them myself right now just for having read that he would do something so atrocious to a child. this kind of behavior is a habit with him and it is destroying those kids. i would confront the mother and tell her exactly what i think about her failure to protect her children. i would have directly confronted him as well. if i had been present when he held the kid under water until he gasped for breath i would have called the cops right then and there. i would have expected my dh to protect those kids from him (physically if neccessary) until the cops arrived. that could have killed the child. if he even got a little water in his lungs it could have caused "dry drowning". i am so mad right now i cant even see straight and i want to cry for those poor children.
post #31 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.
OMGosh!!! Are you kidding?! :

Why didn't anyone say anything??? It's obvious somebody needs to step in and help these kids. If their own family won't help them, who will?
post #32 of 205
The first incident you described could just have been him loosing his cool from being emotionally upset. After hearing that one I was just going to recomend that you suggest anger management classes to your SIL (that she insist he go not that she go.) However, this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
Yesterday he didn't like the 5 yo splashing in the pool and ordered him to come over to him in the shallow end. The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.
is something different.

This was not a heat of the moment loose of ones cool. Since the behavior was minor and could either have been left uncorrected (isn't the whole point of letting 5 yo into pools so that they can splash) or he could have simply yelled over "DN, stop spashing," the fact that he took such extreme measures makes me suspect that he had been looking for a chance to correct the kid. This is clearly a power trip for him, not just a lack of parenting skills.

As PP have pointed out this is also dangerous physical abuse. The chances of permanent harm from this are much higher than if he had taken off a belt and beaten the kid, and it was probably nearly as painful too. If they have been in vestigated by CPS in the past it may even have been a calculated punishment b/c it doesn't leave any incriminating bruises to show.
post #33 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
The boy was tearful and trembling, saying he was afraid to come over. He ordered him to come and the child reluctantly did. When he got within reach BIL grabbed him and dunked him underwater, holding him there until he came up choking and crying. Then he ordered him out of the pool.

I was at work when that happened. Dh said he knew if I'd seen it I would have confronted BIL, and he's right.
This is abuse plain and simple, and I'd be making a call to CPS straight away. I know they're family, which to me is all the more reason why I would need to see those children protected. I will also say that no one would have gotten away with that in the presence of our family. I'm trying not to be harsh, but guys, your silence is condoning this, please seriously consider doing something.
post #34 of 205
It probably seemed like you didn't really Do much for them.. but, it left the dad thinking. He may never admit it, but he's thinking about it. Deep down, he probably knows he was out of line.

Hopefully this will open up a chance for a calm discussion about children, and perhaps some anger management classes. But, right now probably isn't the time for it.

Maybe soon, you can VERY cautiously, and with true concern ask Sister (or sister in law) if she is O.K and if they need anything.

I think you did exactly the right thing. I would have been scared to talk to BIL. I might have grabbed the little boy and run away. LOL. Talking to Mr Hothead, wouldn't have even occured to me.
post #35 of 205
If that isn't abuse, I don't know what is. Emotional (screaming, yelling, berating) & physical (holding a child under water). Please help these kids! I'm not one that usually says call CPS, but this is definitely abuse and those kids need an adult to help them. Please, please, please help them. It breaks my heart to think of children being treated like this.
post #36 of 205
I just read the part about the pool.

How come YOU are the only one in the family with enought guts to do anything? Even a calm "O.K Dadoftheyear, lets just chill out, howbout we go play pool *cards, darts.. whatever*"

The others in the house need to nut up a little.
post #37 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyster View Post
This is abuse plain and simple, and I'd be making a call to CPS straight away. I know they're family, which to me is all the more reason why I would need to see those children protected. I will also say that no one would have gotten away with that in the presence of our family. I'm trying not to be harsh, but guys, your silence is condoning this, please seriously consider doing something.
I agree.

Your DH said if you had seen it you would have confronted him. I'm sorry, but why didn't your DH confront him????? For that matter, why didn't he call the police on the spot?

Why are you tolerating child abuse in your home???

Dealing with it privately by talking to his wife isn't going to work. For one thing, he almost certainly abuses her too, and she probably has all sorts of denial/"battered women's syndrome" type issues that keep her from taking the initiative in protecting herself and her kids. The only real solution is to get this guy out of the picture. And since SIL probably won't do it voluntarily, the only way to do that is to get the family into the social services system. Depending on how deeply brainwashed she is by his abuse, she may not do the right thing when forced to choose between him and the kids. In which case you or some other household in the extended family are going to have to step up and foster them.

You know what, f(#*% the family reunion. It SHOULD be derailed. Saving these kids is more important. By making nice and glossing it over you are letting him think it's acceptable. You don't want to ruin the reunion, but it's already ruined for SIL and her kids. BIL is relying on all the rest of you to do exactly what you're doing - not calling him on his behavior because of the reunion. If the family reunion did get completely derailed to intervene in this situation, maybe it would serve as a wakeup call to at least your SIL, if not to the abuser himself.

Ask yourself how you would handle it if they were the only guests in your home. You'd probably be a lot less tolerant, right? And the same is true of your other relatives, but put you all together, and...... this is the kind of group psychology that causes passive-bystander situations a la the Kitty Genovese case.

Please, act.
post #38 of 205
The second story is really an indication to me that this man could seriously harm or even kill one of his children. Compiled with all that you know about this situation, and that this isn't just a heat of the moment kind of thing, you should have called CPS yesterday and told them everything you know.

The fact that this man would destroy the belongings of a two year old in order to punish him is also really concerning to me. I grew up in an abusive home, and while I wasn't abused my brother was severely. My father would destroy his belongings in order to punish him if he didn't want anyone to witness him hitting my brother, but he did plenty of that as well. Abusers can be very good at hiding what they do and making up stories to cover their tracks. Now my brother is an abuser, and he is very much a drill sgt to his children. His DP is pretty much a prisoner in her own home because she relies on him for money and a place to live, and is compliant about what he does and won't listen to anyone when we try to convince her to leave.

They are terrified of their father and have good reason to be, but they're not in any position to get help and be advocates for themselves. You are.
post #39 of 205
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
It probably seemed like you didn't really Do much for them.. but, it left the dad thinking. He may never admit it, but he's thinking about it. Deep down, he probably knows he was out of line..
I think this is probably closer to the truth than anything.

He's been better behaved all day today. I'm pretty sure he feels the collective disapproval about his actions last night, and knows that it won't be tolerated. I think he stayed in his room so long this morning because he was ashamed and embarrassed.

We're not going to split this family. We don't have the power to and we wouldn't choose to. They are a devoted couple and he is a devoted family man. So that's just not going to happen. He is not going to leave his home. And, importantly, his family doesn't want him to.

CPS isn't going to remove children for being dunked in the pool or for being yelled at and hit with a thrown hat. So being confrontational and histrionic isn't going to benefit anyone. Least of all the children, who would probably be the most upset and injured of anyone by it.

We are all carefully modeling gentle parenting, both with our own kids and also with his kids, before he has a chance to jump in with his tyrannical methods. I'm certain that it's making an impression on him. He won't change overnight, but if it spares the children some drama and fear then it helps.

Dh commented that if I saw him dunk dd like that, he knew that he would be divorced before the week was up. And it's absolutely true - I could not be married to someone who would treat our child that way. But it's not my marriage and SIL is making her own way through this as best she can. Thankfully, she is just an outstanding mother.

So, we'll see how this goes. If he comes unglued again then there'll certainly be fireworks. Because I cannot tolerate that abuse in my home. But in the meantime we're all trying to be as supportive as we can in helping him learn that he can be a better father.
post #40 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessed View Post
I think this is probably closer to the truth than anything.

He's been better behaved all day today. I'm pretty sure he feels the collective disapproval about his actions last night, and knows that it won't be tolerated. I think he stayed in his room so long this morning because he was ashamed and embarrassed.

We're not going to split this family. We don't have the power to and we wouldn't choose to. They are a devoted couple and he is a devoted family man. So that's just not going to happen. He is not going to leave his home. And, importantly, his family doesn't want him to.

CPS isn't going to remove children for being dunked in the pool or for being yelled at and hit with a thrown hat. So being confrontational and histrionic isn't going to benefit anyone. Least of all the children, who would probably be the most upset and injured of anyone by it.

We are all carefully modeling gentle parenting, both with our own kids and also with his kids, before he has a chance to jump in with his tyrannical methods. I'm certain that it's making an impression on him. He won't change overnight, but if it spares the children some drama and fear then it helps.

Dh commented that if I saw him dunk dd like that, he knew that he would be divorced before the week was up. And it's absolutely true - I could not be married to someone who would treat our child that way. But it's not my marriage and SIL is making her own way through this as best she can. Thankfully, she is just an outstanding mother.

So, we'll see how this goes. If he comes unglued again then there'll certainly be fireworks. Because I cannot tolerate that abuse in my home. But in the meantime we're all trying to be as supportive as we can in helping him learn that he can be a better father.

She may be an oustanding mother, but she is watching her children be abused without defending them.
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