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Unvaccinated Autisics? - Page 3

post #41 of 140
I believe the OP has an autistic child and perhaps a new baby too.
I suspect this question comes from a place of fear or concern and I can understand that. I remember telling my OB that I was very afraid my child would have autism (this was before I was pregnant; I had some kind of gut instinct on this and a lot of fear). She told me if I just breastfed a child couldn't be autistic. Hoey. But I believed her.

Anyway OP, there are reasons for not vaccinating kids. But it isn't going to prevent autism. Still a second child with an autistic sibling has only a 10 to 25% chance of being on the spectrum and he/she will likely not be on the same place on the spectrum as a sibling. I feel like you likely need support and the responses you got here (including mine) would make me never come back. Feel free to pm me if you want. And there are other parents here with autistic kids who then have other children so have been where you are.
post #42 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by xaloxe View Post
She's 7 now and has on her own paid for 2.5 children (and more pennies adding up in her jar now) to have a cleft lip surgery who couldn't afford it. She started a drive in her first grade class and they raised enough money through the school to pay for two more. She says "If I hadn't been born with a cleft lip, those kids wouldn't have been able to have the surgery because I probably wouldn't have raised the money for them. I'm glad I have a cleft lip." Can I take the blame for that too?

Nature is beautiful.
: What a beautiful, special girl you have. Such compassion for such a little body!!!
post #43 of 140
DH and his brother were not vaxed as infants but did get vaxes around age 13. BIL shows many signs of asperger's and has since well before the boys were vaxed. DH is wicked into math and computer programming which some are arguing is actually a very high form of the spectrum - there is a "rash" of autism/asperger's here in the bay area and some blame chemicals/environment but others point to, well, we've got all these geeks here reproducing, sometimes with other geeks, and if being a geek is in fact actually on the spectrum, that could account for it... and to be perfectly clear, in my circles, calling someone a geek is complimentary... my father still can't get used to it and is taken aback every time I call DH a geek. "Doesn't he get offended at you calling him a geek?" "Nope."

And I'm not really pulling this geek theory out of my behind... I'd heard this tossed around for the first time at least 4-5 years ago... and when we had our genetics consult, BIL's asperger's came up, and the doctor asked my husband what he does for a living, he said "I'm a computer programmer" - and then he and the doctor both said at the same time, "which may also be related..."

Anyway that's all I got. No vaxes but definate ASD behavior in one boy and possible behaviors in the other.

eta - fwiw I am not a geek... would be better off if I were.
post #44 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by JessSC View Post
I believe that vaccines are not safe, but they do not CAUSE autism. Do I think they can make a child with genetically predisposed autism worse? Yes, I have to admit that I believe in the environmental factor as well. I've always been a big believer of both nature and nurture working together.
This sums up my feelings very well. Both DH and I have some Asperger-like traits. ADHD and SPD also run in the family. So I do believe that DS #1's Asperger's and OCD, and DD's SPD are due in part to genetics. But I also think it's no accident that DS #2, the one who is only partially vaxxed and also received thimerosol-free vaxes is, so far, completely neurotypical.
post #45 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunnerDuck View Post
DH is wicked into math and computer programming which some are arguing is actually a very high form of the spectrum - there is a "rash" of autism/asperger's here in the bay area and some blame chemicals/environment but others point to, well, we've got all these geeks here reproducing, sometimes with other geeks, and if being a geek is in fact actually on the spectrum, that could account for it...

And I'm not really pulling this geek theory out of my behind... I'd heard this tossed around for the first time at least 4-5 years ago... and when we had our genetics consult, BIL's asperger's came up, and the doctor asked my husband what he does for a living, he said "I'm a computer programmer" - and then he and the doctor both said at the same time, "which may also be related..."
I completly agree. I think that things that were considered weird or "geek" or anti-social 10 years ago is often on the spectrum now.
post #46 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by lberk View Post
And to say ( again) that autism awareness is the one and only cause of the autism epidemic in this country?! That is an unbelievable statement . unbelievable! And very, very wrong.
Not trying to be antagonistic, but the criteria for diagnosing autism have changed over the years and expanded whereby more people are now able to receive a dx of autism. According to literature I have read, Hans Asperger's work was not even translated into English until the early 1980's. So what was a natural occurrence/rate of autism in the U.S. now appears to be an epidemic because of our greater awareness of autism.
post #47 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidshappymamma View Post
Not trying to be antagonistic, but the criteria for diagnosing autism have changed over the years and expanded whereby more people are now able to receive a dx of autism. According to literature I have read, Hans Asperger's work was not even translated into English until the early 1980's. So what was a natural occurrence/rate of autism in the U.S. now appears to be an epidemic because of our greater awareness of autism.
I don't know when it was translated but that sounds about right. Asperger's Syndrome didn't even make it into the DSM until 1994.
post #48 of 140
To folow on Rachelle's last post. By the time ds2 was born, I knew ds1 was autistic. My kids are both on the spectrum and could be no more different from each other. They are definately affected in differing degrees and areas. I was told by a doctor when we were pursueing a dx for ds2 that they see siblings all over the spectrum. It is not uncommon to see a child with classic autism who has a sibling with AS. To me that points to genetics.
post #49 of 140
Dh works with many clients that are on the Spectru. 75 -90 % were diagnosed long before they ever had a vaccine. Most of them have only have a tetanus shot and hepb as adults as they grew up without any healthcare system.
post #50 of 140
The beginning of this article is pretty biased, but if you can get through it to the middle when he begins to discuss the study, it's pretty well done.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14
post #51 of 140
I am returning this thread with a gentle reminder of the UA and the Special Needs forum guidlines.

Quote:
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Parenting the special needs child comes with many rewards and challenges that are unique to each family. This forum is a place to discuss these issues with like-minded members. The forum is open to all members and we encourage everyone to share and join in the discussions. Though in doing so, please be respectful of the forums purpose and the feelings of all our members.
Please join us in supporting parents of special needs children as they work together to deal with everyday issues and parenting while practicing Natural Family Living. And as always, please make sure your posting is in accordance with the MDC User Agreement.
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Also, MDC does not take a stand on the autism debate. Therefore discusions regarding the causes of autism or autism like symptoms are allowed. I know there are some very passionate points of view on this forum, but that does not mean that your POV trumps all others. Lively discusions are great, but they need to stay within the UA.

Poster do not need to justify their reasons for posting. All posters, new or well established, should be treated with respect. We have all been new posters at one point and have come here for support, community, and education. Please keep this in mind when addressing members. We all have a lot to learn and a lot to give.

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post #52 of 140
My son has never had a single vaccine and is autistic. There are several in our family who are autistic/ADHD.
post #53 of 140
If you look at the symptoms of autism instead of the diagnosis, it's known that various things cause autistic-like symptoms.

Tramatic brain damage can cause Autistic like symptoms (birth injury, hypoxia, encephelopathy, etc).

Toxic brain damage can cause Autistic like symptoms (lead poisoning, mercury poisoning, etc).

Autistic-like symptoms are also seen with genetic disorders like Fragile X, Rhett's syndrome and mitochondrial disorders.

In 1980's autism was 1 in 10,000 today it's 1 in 150. I believe 1 in 10,000 is more than likely genetic. But I also believe that the increase could be due to toxins from vaccines, the environment.

Most every agrees that there are different causes of cancer (environmental, genetic)... why does everyone get so defensive when it comes to what causes autism????
post #54 of 140
We get defensive because we live it. When you have a kid with Autism, every Tom, Dick and Mary come out of the woodwork to give their opinion on what caused/will cure your kid's autism. 'Did you eat tuna?' 'Did you vax?' 'Omega-3's will cure it.' 'Go on the gf/cf diet'...etc. It gets really tiresome. There are mamas here that their kid is vax injured and there are kids here who do awesome on a gf/cf diet but the hard facts are that all of our kids are very, very different. And you are right, there are many different things that cause Autistic-like systems and people just lump them all together.

Why do you believe 1 in 10,000 are genetic? I do think that the environment we live in shouldn't be completely discounted but I also think that our society is selecting for more tech savvy people and many of them may have 'markers' for autism. Who knows : I'm just trying to make it through the day and enjoy my kids.

Like my personal hero Shaggy Daddy says, "If you are suffering from Autism, you're doing it wrong".
post #55 of 140
I get defensive b/c the popular media and stuff like to tell me my kid is broken and it's all my fault b/c I vaccinated him.

I get defensive b/c when I try to talk about why autism numbers are rising - like that kids who aren't autistic, like my daughter, get the PDD-NOS label in order to receive services through the school , or that they're better at noticing it - I'm told I'm wrong. Asperger's wasn't even mentioned in the U.S. until the 1980's, so it makes sense to me that no one was diagnosed with it thirty years ago.

I get defensive because I am told I have to respect other people's opinions when they don't respect mine - this really bugs me when I'm the one dealing with the child on the spectrum and they're not.

I get defensive when people ask me if my daughter is autistic, and I say no, and they question me for another ten minutes and still want to label her as autistic...and then they go on about how there is an epidemic.

I get defensive because I"m tired of it all. I don't really care what caused it. My son is fabulous the way he is. If I have three more like him, great!
post #56 of 140
Just a note of clarification, Rett's Syndrome is classified as one of the five pervasive developmental disorders in the DSM-IV so is considered an autism as opposed to autistic-like.

Autistic Disorder (Kanner's Autism), Asperger's Syndrome, Rett's Syndrome, Childhood Disintegrative Disorder and PDD-NOS are the five PDDs.

I do agree that many different things can present as autistic-like and differentiating between actual autism and a different condition that presents as autistic-like can be difficult.

With regards to the increase in diagnoses from 1980 to today. From my research (I do freelance writing and wrote an article on how autism has grown from the DSM-I through DSM-IV), in 1980 when the DSM-III was released, it was the first time that autism had its own separate diagnostic category (prior to that it was considered a type of schizophrenia). So in 1980 the classification for autism was released with six identifying characteristics and every one of the six must be present for a child to be diagnosed with infantile autism (as it was called in the DSM-III).

In 1994, the DSM-IV was released which created five different diagnostic categories under the Pervasive Developmental Disorders umbrella. Infantile autism was changed to "autistic disorder" and the identifying characteristics were increased from six to 16. Of the 16, only six of the characteristics need be present for a diagnosis of autistic disorder to be made. This increased characteristic list as well as less stringent requirements for diagnosis naturally led to an increase in autism diagnosis. Then when you look at Asperger's Syndrome, PDD-NOS, Rett's and CDD (granted Rett's and CDD are quite rare) your "autisms" diagnoses increase tremendously.
post #57 of 140
also keep in mind the growing trend of classifying ADHD as an autism spectrum disorder, which just further expands that umbrella.
post #58 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by angndon View Post
If you look at the symptoms of autism instead of the diagnosis, it's known that various things cause autistic-like symptoms.

Tramatic brain damage can cause Autistic like symptoms (birth injury, hypoxia, encephelopathy, etc).

Toxic brain damage can cause Autistic like symptoms (lead poisoning, mercury poisoning, etc).

Autistic-like symptoms are also seen with genetic disorders like Fragile X, Rhett's syndrome and mitochondrial disorders.

In 1980's autism was 1 in 10,000 today it's 1 in 150. I believe 1 in 10,000 is more than likely genetic. But I also believe that the increase could be due to toxins from vaccines, the environment.

Most every agrees that there are different causes of cancer (environmental, genetic)... why does everyone get so defensive when it comes to what causes autism????
I was born in 1984. Literally from birth I had clear autistic symptoms. My mother was told that girls cannot be autistic and that infants cannot be autistic yet. She dropped it and went on with her life even though I was more than clearly on the spectrum (not that they really thought of it as a spectrum back then). It is only as a teenager that I researched it a bit more. In the 80s, I was not diagnosed. If I were born today, I would be diagnosed from a very young age. Stats like 1 in 10,000 or whatever do not represent reality, they represent social phenomena. No scientist could ever argue (convincingly) that X% of the population is autistic or anything else. They can only argue that X number of people get an official diagnosis of the current socially constructed definition of autism. Until someone can show me a specific diagnosis test which indicates autism and rules out non-autism and then tests an appropriate sample, those stats are just numbers created within a certain social context, by certain people with certain goals, with specifically designed studies, funded by specific people with their own social context. ShaggyDaddy is right. Autism Awareness (god and bad) is the most plausible cause of autism.

Speaking of ShaggyDaddy, besides the fact that you seem to have become the universally admired patriarch of this forum (I would put a smiley but I do not get the different expressions they have unless I read the caption...), it seems that you have the potential to succeed in sociology. Your writings are much better than many of my fellow sociologists. Your idea of autism as the logical next step to specialization is one that I like to sit in my armchair and reflect upon quite a bit. So far, I have managed to integrate it in all of the major school of thought of sociology

With Marx and conflict theory, it just makes sense as an answer to the alienation caused by capitalism.
With structural-functionalism, we can look at it in terms of roles and deviance. More specifically, for society to succeed, we must all fulfill certain roles. If our society calls for geeks and thrives on specialized, anti-social people sitting in front of computers, then those people will exist and will fulfill that role. They will also reproduce and have further specialized kids while society will not try as hard to make them fit other roles to survive. On the other hand, deviance is needed in this model to enforce and determine 'normalcy'. In childhood, this concept is even more important (according to structural-functionalists) because that is where children learn 'normalcy' and norms to follow. Now that many of the deviant behaviours of the past have been normalized, other ones are highlighted. Also, our society also needs people to be very social and able to interact with strangers much more than before. With an increase in the social expectations on children, we would expect to see an increase in pathologizing more awkward or socially inept behaviours.
Ok, I'll stop before getting into symbolic-interactionism or constructionism...

Anyhow, my point is that things such as 'autism' only exist in terms of the meaning we give the words and concepts we use to explain them. Diagnoses and such are not absolute truth, they are theories made up someone's head which only exist within their context. There are a million different ways to conceptualize autism or 'symptoms' it is made up of. 1 in 10,00, 1 in 150 just does not mean anything, especially not that there is some kind of growing epidemic like bird flu or something.
post #59 of 140
Thanks to all the posters above who said it so much more succinctly and eloquently than I ever could.
post #60 of 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by angndon View Post
Most every agrees that there are different causes of cancer (environmental, genetic)... why does everyone get so defensive when it comes to what causes autism????
That is the thing, my whole point is that Autism and Cancer are not comperable. Cancer happens to you, cancer damages you, cancer is your body deteriorating. Autism is a description of different, but equally valid way some people think, live, love, and work. Autism is hard because of the way our society is structured (although that is changing).. Cancer is hard because it kills you. Drawing parallels between the two confirms that I have not got my point across to you at all.
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