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HIV argument - Page 2

post #21 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
As a Mother to a new baby boy.....I was dismayed to find such incredible polarization on this issue. I have an eight year old daughter that I am constantly working on with regards to simple, basic heigene. I wanted some true dialog and simple facts in order to make an informed decision about circumcision. It is so hard to find this without the intense emotional convictions that seem to supress information on each side of the issue.
Welcome to the board Mana Mamma! Congratulations on your new baby boy. Well you've come to the right place we can provide you with all the information you need. I will point out that the forum is the Case Against Circumcision so I suppose you know which way we'll lean. People here do get emotional but you have to understand that is only because we care. We won't try and suppress information but rather try and put it into context. If you have direct questions please start a thread so we can address them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
For example, I have enough knowledge of intact grown men (2 that I know) who have had adult infections resulting in adult circumcisons....but am thinking that many, many more statistically do not. STD's aside, is it possible that an intact man can give his wife more simple vaginal/bladder infections? Do most adolesent boys take the cleaning seriously? Where is the voice of the Moms who weren't convinced one way or another and have grappled with this choice? What are their thoughts now, after their choice?
That is a surprise (about the men) though it is hard to know without knowing the details of the individual cases, I can tell you that in countries were infant/child circumcision is rare or unheard of, the adult circumcision rate is at least 1/15000. It was proabably the result of US doctors who don't know or practice less invasive alternatives. As an intact guy myself I would be very wary of a doctor suggesting circumcision for any problem. Most have non invasive alternatives that should be exhausted first. I am not saying they didn't do that but given the true odds knowing even one adult getting circumcised would be rare.

I have never heard that intact men pass vaginal/bladder problems to their partners. Intact men do more readily show symptoms of yeast infections, even though circumcised and intact men get these at the same rates. Having been an adolescent boy I can assure you that we take hygiene pretty seriously, particularly when pursuing the ladies. Now having said that I want to point out that such a notion, that boys can't take care of themselves, I would fine pretty insulting. Sure we role around in the mud and frequently come back filthy (hey I still do sometimes. ) but we are capable of washing ourselves. I would point out that it has only been since WWII that circumcision, in the US (remember it is uncommon elsewhere), became common. And it wasn't too long before that that daily bathing was rare. So men spent many eons in the days before plumbing not having too many (if any) problems. Do you think nature would mess up one of the most important components?

I can't really address your last two questions but to say I don't think anyone hear regrets their decision, or they wouldn't be here. But there is a thread of those who regret circumcising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
This procedure is not something to take lightly and something to which I wanted intelligent input.....but found two answers: You MUST do this procedure and You MUST NOT do this procedure. All the links I found were designed to convince the reader of the author's position. Has anyone else had this experience and wished for a pro/con conversation and not a sermon?
Let me leave you with a this thought. If you leave your boy intact, you give him an option. A boy/man can be circumcised at any point though few ever choose it for themselves. You can never really undo a circumcision so there is only one path that you would ever truly commit your son and one that gives him reasonable options. I REALLY hope you'll stick around and ask questions. We are hear to help, give us a chance. Again Welcome to the board.
post #22 of 50
ummm. I should hope she would teach her son to use a condom whether he is circed or not. She honestly thinks circing is going to prevent him from catching HIV?
post #23 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
As a Mother to a new baby boy.....I was dismayed to find such incredible polarization on this issue. I have an eight year old daughter that I am constantly working on with regards to simple, basic heigene. I wanted some true dialog and simple facts in order to make an informed decision about circumcision. It is so hard to find this without the intense emotional convictions that seem to supress information on each side of the issue.

For example, I have enough knowledge of intact grown men (2 that I know) who have had adult infections resulting in adult circumcisons....but am thinking that many, many more statistically do not. STD's aside, is it possible that an intact man can give his wife more simple vaginal/bladder infections? Do most adolesent boys take the cleaning seriously? Where is the voice of the Moms who weren't convinced one way or another and have grappled with this choice? What are their thoughts now, after their choice?

This procedure is not something to take lightly and something to which I wanted intelligent input.....but found two answers: You MUST do this procedure and You MUST NOT do this procedure. All the links I found were designed to convince the reader of the author's position. Has anyone else had this experience and wished for a pro/con conversation and not a sermon?
Most guys on this planet are not cut, including me. They all lead perfectly happy, healthy lives. I never had any problem, ever, whether medical, social, etc. So, why would cut part of a penis off without the patient's permission when everything is normal? It just sounds strange, doesn't it?
post #24 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisdude23 View Post
Most guys on this planet are not cut, including me. They all lead perfectly happy, healthy lives. I never had any problem, ever, whether medical, social, etc. So, why would cut part of a penis off without the patient's permission when everything is normal? It just sounds strange, doesn't it?
Ditto. I'm intact and have absolutely no even minor problems.

To circ a boy because you think they have more trouble cleaning is a sincere insult to their intelligence and exercises gender inequality.

And Quirky's response to researching the "pros/cons" to female circumcision just echos the gender inequality boys are unfairly up against in rare circumcising countries face.
post #25 of 50
I think the reason you aren't going to find people who are neutral or on the fence is that the nature of the issue basically dictates it. It's the removal of a healthy body part without the patient's consent (I'm trying to say this as neutrally as I can), and not even one, like an appendix or tonsils, that the patient is not aware of having or not, but a very sensitive external part of the body.

Since that is the case, either it is medically justified, in which case the foreskin is truly dangerous and parents who leave it in place are neglectful, or it is not medically justified, in which case the right to bodily integrity becomes an issue and parents who do it are violating that right.

A lot of pro-circumcision people I've run into lately actually don't claim that it "must be done". They used to say this, but lately the line seems to be "it's a personal choice". However, this completely undermines their position. If they admit it isn't needed, how can they justify it?
post #26 of 50
My BILs are intact as well and have never had a problem. My circ'd dh is the unhappy one.

You never know what your son will want when he gets older. Most intact men are quite happy with their status and would never dream of getting circ'd. Of the few I have met online who did opt to have it done as an adult they either A.) deeply regretted it after the fact or B.) were happy with their decision but also their parents decision to let them decide.

Obviously without knowing the two men that were circumcised for infections and knowing their history, I cant say for sure, but 99% of *necessary* circumcisions in the US are NOT necessary. Did they have cancer of the foreskin? Gangrene? Then it wasnt needed. The problem is, doctors in the US have this attitude that if something is wrong with a penis and it still has the foreskin attached, well, obviously its the foreskin's fault. I know two men who were circ'd as older kids, one at 8 and one at 16. The first one was circ'd due to a yeast infection. No joke. Do we circ our daughters for a yeast infection?? Heck no. We give them antibiotics. Ironically after the circ his yeast infection got worse, not better. The other man was circ'd because he couldnt retract yet. Thats all. There was no pain, he wasnt having infections-simple stretching could have fixed the issue. But instead, he was circ'd.

Again, how do we treat a girl or a woman with an infection in the genital area? We give her medications to get rid of it. I have never met a girl who had her labia removed due to recurrent infections. Sadly, those men you met wouldnt have been circumcised had they been treated the way they should have.

I will be honest, I couldnt have cared less about the circumcision debate when my ds was born or even for months after. He was left intact because my insurance didnt cover it, simple as that. What made me actually look into it was my dh's unhappiness over being circ'd. Yes, most men never care whether they were circ'd or not, but as the info gets out there, more men are realising what was taken from them and arnt happy with it. Especially with circ rates being the way they are now (around 50% nationally, 30% in my own area), these boys will very much be exposed to both intact and circumcised penises as they grow up. Personally I'd be a lot more upset to see what I had lost than what I still had. And again, even my brother in laws, who are in their 20's and were born during a time when most boys were still circ'd, are very happy with their status and were never made fun of (to clarify, they are intact). The most they got was curiosity over it. As they said, most guys wouldnt admit to looking at another guys junk anyway!

I am leaving the decision to my son. Leaving him intact was the default; circumcising is not. I wouldnt risk my sons health or life for a cosmetic procedure.
post #27 of 50
I have researched the pros and cons of male circumsicion and there ARE pros and cons. My difficulty is finding if the "pros" are true or if the information is biased. This is also my difficulty with the "cons". Most of the information I receive is highly emotionally charged. All the circumcised (as babies) men I have discussed this with are fine with having had it done...especially with the cleaning issue. It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure. The men I know who have had it done as adults are supportive of having it done as babies. Two men is not enough input for me for such a intense procedure....

With regard to female circumsicion, I cannot find any pros for female circumcision and it appears the practice has evolved simply to control women. I've never heard of an adult woman who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done.....has anyone?

Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
post #28 of 50
I also want to add that I am not saying my boy won't have good hygeine because he's a boy. It is actually my experience with my 8 year old daughter, who is horrible at it unless we step in that is making me wonder about the hygeine issue. I do not want to have to inspect my son's private area the way I have to inspect my daughter's teeth. The smell of her pants is horrible but her "forgetting" to put on underwear insures adequate airflow to the area. This (airflow) is where I see a pro for being circumsised.

However, I don't want to judge my infant based on his sister. I have another daughter with impeccable hygeine.
post #29 of 50
Mana mama, if you haven't found any 'pros' for female circ then you haven't looked very hard. Girls are circed for cleanliness, lower infection rates, so it will look purity ect. Basically the same reason boys are cut here.
Adult women do opt to alter their genitals all the time. Vaginal rejuvenation, is that what one of the cosmetic procedures is called?

And if you remove the cultural blinders you'll realize quickly there are no real pros to either. Cutting off healthy functioning body parts of children is just a bad idea.

How much air flow are you getting in your vagina , me not so much. I think your argument in favor of circ is one of the most illogical I'ver heard, air flow seriously. I have two intact boys and no inspection has ever been needed.
post #30 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
I have researched the pros and cons of male circumsicion and there ARE pros and cons. My difficulty is finding if the "pros" are true or if the information is biased. This is also my difficulty with the "cons". Most of the information I receive is highly emotionally charged. All the circumcised (as babies) men I have discussed this with are fine with having had it done...especially with the cleaning issue. It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure. The men I know who have had it done as adults are supportive of having it done as babies. Two men is not enough input for me for such a intense procedure....

With regard to female circumsicion, I cannot find any pros for female circumcision and it appears the practice has evolved simply to control women. I've never heard of an adult woman who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done.....has anyone?

Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
Well I am a circumcised male and I wish I was not. I have no idea how sex would feel different if I had a foreskin. But I do know that circumcision removed a lot of nerve endings, where sensation comes from, so that leads me to believe that I have less sensation. Also, many of the studies that say sensation has not changed, usually only compare the penis glans, and for tests on uncut men during those studies, the foreskin is held back and ignored. And if you ignore the extra nerves, obviously the study is going to say there is no difference.

Look, I would be more supportive of circumcision if it was being used to treat an actual problem, and it was the least invasive solution.
If there is a medical problem, of course, but circumcision does not treat anything. A circed boy can still get an STD, a UTI, a infection, a yeast infection. There penis can still get dirty, as children they can still be made fun of for something, and they will still have to wear a condom.

So you have to ask yourself, whats really the point? Reducing the risk of something that probably wont happen in the first place? Because thats all there is to it, circumcision does not provide treatment to actual problems.

This might be slightly of a biased belief, but I believe "My body, my rights"
post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
I have researched the pros and cons of male circumsicion and there ARE pros and cons. My difficulty is finding if the "pros" are true or if the information is biased. This is also my difficulty with the "cons". Most of the information I receive is highly emotionally charged. All the circumcised (as babies) men I have discussed this with are fine with having had it done...especially with the cleaning issue. It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure. The men I know who have had it done as adults are supportive of having it done as babies. Two men is not enough input for me for such a intense procedure....

With regard to female circumsicion, I cannot find any pros for female circumcision and it appears the practice has evolved simply to control women. I've never heard of an adult woman who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done.....has anyone?

Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
I also want to add that I am not saying my boy won't have good hygeine because he's a boy. It is actually my experience with my 8 year old daughter, who is horrible at it unless we step in that is making me wonder about the hygeine issue. I do not want to have to inspect my son's private area the way I have to inspect my daughter's teeth. The smell of her pants is horrible but her "forgetting" to put on underwear insures adequate airflow to the area. This (airflow) is where I see a pro for being circumsised.

However, I don't want to judge my infant based on his sister. I have another daughter with impeccable hygeine.
There are NO "pros" to reducing a male newborn's healthy sexual organs. Nope. NOT ONE SINGLE "pro". None.

More skin, more sexual nerves, more pleasure. Its really that simple.

Men aren't stupid. They can remember Retract, Rinse, Replace. Three R's - thats not complicated. To amputate normal body parts for hygene is not only insane its insulting. C'mon, they're not stupid.

Tell me, how is it cleaner to have urine and feces up against an open wound? I bet that stings like hell.
post #32 of 50
I'm not making any arguments FOR circumsicion.....I'm looking for info beyond "my personal opinion". Quite frankly, I do not think the issue (at least for me) is about appearances. I'm sure it is for others but I'm only concerned with my son at this point and not other people's kids.

I've not found ANY info that supports the statement that women get circumcised often due to recurrent infections. I'm not sure where you found that.

I came to this forum because the data behind "Circumsicion lowers risk of HIV" is clearly not sound and the idea is rediculous. I'm looking for data on bacterial and yeast type of infections and some real life experience like....can you smell your boys due to lack of care or do they take the cleaning seriously? I'm sure there is a variety of experiences here.

....And when I feel funky, like when an infection might be brewing down there ...I do increase the airflow by not wearing any underwear. Wearing it will bring it on in those times.
post #33 of 50
.....I would really like to thank the men who have spoken up here. I have gotten some good input from you guys about it from the adult male perpective. So far, I've only been thinking from a Mom's perspective and it's good to widen my view.
post #34 of 50
Guys get the same infections girls do so I have no idea why men are getting circumcised instead of getting the right treatments. Maybe it's because we live in a culture that doesn't value or understand normal male anatomy.

Do you really think cutting of your son's foreskin to maybe prevent (eventhough circed guys get the same infections) infections isn't a little extreme, to put it mildly?
post #35 of 50
My sons have never smelled bad there nor have they had an infection. Washing genitals really isn't very hard and I have full confidence in my chidlren's ability (my sons and my daughter) to clean themselves.
Circumcised men also get yeast infections ect. Treatment is the same for men as it is for women , circed or not.

And reducing infections is one of the reasons given for why circumcising females is best. Women who are circumcised are supposed to get less infections. It's easier to keep a vulva clean after all with out all that dirty labia getting in the way.
post #36 of 50
The "intact men smell" canard must have been made up by a circed man with an inferiority complex. You would have to go for weeks or months without washing for there to be any perceptible smell. Washing is easy and easily taught. Women pull their clitoral prepuces back and rinse. Men pull their foreskins back and rinse. If you get your boy in the habit of pulling back as far as if will go and rinsing early when he can do it himself (you never need to do it) on you will never have any problem and neither will he.
post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma
I have researched the pros and cons of male circumsicion and there ARE pros and cons. My difficulty is finding if the "pros" are true or if the information is biased. This is also my difficulty with the "cons". Most of the information I receive is highly emotionally charged. All the circumcised (as babies) men I have discussed this with are fine with having had it done...especially with the cleaning issue. It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure. The men I know who have had it done as adults are supportive of having it done as babies. Two men is not enough input for me for such a intense procedure....

With regard to female circumsicion, I cannot find any pros for female circumcision and it appears the practice has evolved simply to control women. I've never heard of an adult woman who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done.....has anyone?

Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
Every single medical organization in the world with a position statement on routine infant circumcision states that the potential (i.e. unproven) benefits do not outweigh the known risks of circumcision. Therefore none of them recommends it for health or hygiene.

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

This is from medical organizations such as the AAP and its equivalents in other English-speaking countries such as the UK and Australia (in other words, places where circumcision took root for historical reasons in the 19th century).

You should really do some research on the history of non-ritual/non-religious male circumcision. It was begun in the 19th century PRECISELY to control male sexuality and diminish sexual pleasure. During the Victorian era, it was thought that masturbation led to physical and moral disease, and therefore that circumcision -- reducing sensation in the penis and eliminating the gliding action of the foreskin that allows for easy and pleasurable masturbation -- would promote so-called moral hygiene.

These are the exact same reasons that cultures such as those in many parts of Africa and Asia give for circumcising girls -- that they'll be cleaner, less prone to disease, and morally more pure if parts of their genitals are removed. Even in this country, up until the 1970s, circumcision for girls was covered by many health insurance plans, and girls could be circumcised if their clitoris was "too prominent" or if they masturbated "too much."

Ever since the 19th century, circumcision has been the cure for the "disease du jour." It has been claimed -- in medical journals -- that circumcision cures or prevents epilepsy, cerebral palsy, tuberculosis, syphilis, and more -- and the latest disease du jour is HIV.

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/

Read this slide show of quotations from doctors and medical journals:

http://www.icgi.org/information/medicalization/

And take a look at the history of female circumcision in the US:

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...id=76&Itemid=6

and the reasons that women still insist on circumcising their daughters in other cultures:

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamma
I'm not making any arguments FOR circumsicion.....I'm looking for info beyond "my personal opinion". Quite frankly, I do not think the issue (at least for me) is about appearances. I'm sure it is for others but I'm only concerned with my son at this point and not other people's kids.

I've not found ANY info that supports the statement that women get circumcised often due to recurrent infections. I'm not sure where you found that.

I came to this forum because the data behind "Circumsicion lowers risk of HIV" is clearly not sound and the idea is rediculous. I'm looking for data on bacterial and yeast type of infections and some real life experience like....can you smell your boys due to lack of care or do they take the cleaning seriously? I'm sure there is a variety of experiences here.

....And when I feel funky, like when an infection might be brewing down there ...I do increase the airflow by not wearing any underwear. Wearing it will bring it on in those times.
My intact son is 6 and has never smelled funky or gross. OTOH, my circumcised husband sure does after a workout or if he's been outside doing yard work and gets all hot and sweaty. That's what a shower is for. It's not the foreskin that promotes bad smells, it's sweat and bacteria combined.

In terms of genital smells, my dds smell way funkier than my son ever does -- my middle dd has very concentrated urine and just gets smelly. Again, regular baths take care of it.

Hygiene for the intact male is ridiculously easy -- when they're babies, never retract the foreskin and wipe like a finger. As they get old enough to retract themselves, teach them to retract in the bath and swish in clean water, then replace the foreskin. That's it. I've seen smegma on my dds -- but never, not once, on my son. Diaper changes were easier on him too -- no folds for poop to get in.

Really, hygiene is a non-issue. Would you ever in a million years consider cutting off your own labia to get rid of the folds and prevent yeast infections? No. So why on earth would you consider cutting your son's genitals to prevent some hypothetical infection? IF he gets one, treat it with the appropriate drugs. But the odds are good he never will.

You also need to learn more about the function of the foreskin and why it's not OK to cut it off. This is a good place to start, and it's based on scientific papers published in the British Journal of Urology:

http://research.cirp.org

And research demonstrating that circumcised men have much less sensitivity than intact men, again published in the British Journal of Urology:

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/
post #38 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2GA View Post
Women pull their clitoral prepuces back and rinse.
Ack! Heck no, we don't! OUCH!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2GA View Post
If you get your boy in the habit of pulling back as far as if will go and rinsing early when he can do it himself (you never need to do it) on you will never have any problem and neither will he.
And don't forget that it is likely that a boy will NOT be able to retract his foreskin until he's older -- the average age is 11, I think? There's no need to do anything at all except sitting in a bath now and then. No retraction, nothing to clean under, nothing to "inspect".

Truthfully, I think that some posters are waaaayyy to worried about children's genitals. They're pretty much care free, in my experience.
post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post

I've not found ANY info that supports the statement that women get circumcised often due to recurrent infections. I'm not sure where you found that.
Here's a link which lists the "benefits" of female circ. Do some of these sound familiar?

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/45528

Quote:
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.


It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.

It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections

It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.

In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:

With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.
post #40 of 50
Sorry for the serial posting, but I just wanted to post one more thing...

Mana Mamma, you mentioned you're the mom of a brand new baby boy, right? I'm assuming that you are not retracting his foreskin to clean under it? You've left it adhered to the glans and you're just wiping the outside like a finger?

That's quite likely all that's necessary for your son to do himself until his foreskin separates from the glans on its own -- usually sometime before puberty. Until then, forcing it back to clean under it would be like ripping off a fingernail to clean under it.

Just making sure that you weren't setting your son up for a cycle of retraction, which can cause tears and scarring, and then possible infections which wouldn't have occurred without the forced retraction -- and for which a doctor might way will necessitate a circumcision. We've seen that described all too often on this board.
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