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post #21 of 31
Just to play the "Maria's Advocate," let me also look at this from a traditional Montessori point of view as well just so you do have a balanced idea of this. Many people look at this aspect of Montessori and, without understanding it, say how strange it is.

There are some premises I want to present. If you agree with these, it will be easier. I'll explain them a bit more detailed after I list them.

1) The real world is filled with imagination.
2) Children that are stuck in a fantasy world do have trouble connecting to reality.
3) The difference between fantasy and reality is blurred at a young age.
4) Too often, adults do use fantasy as a form of manipulation.
5) Fantasy does not necessarily mean "imagination" or "creativity."

What we discover with children is a love of the real world. We simply have to spark that interest and they look at it and are able to imagine so much. So it surprises me when a "traditional" teacher might shy away from teaching 3-6 year old children the different parts of the plant, the life cycles of various animals, or other aspects of nature. Right when a time that a child's imagination is at its peak, we tend to shy away from getting them to imagine about real things. We replace them with things that aren't real. So it's no longer a "Imagine what a dog really does and what he might be thinking." It's now "A dog is talking and playing pool while his friends are playing poker and drinking." (Ok...not an age appropriate story by anyone's imagination, but you get the point). Why are we avoiding, almost entirely, the ability for children to imagine about real life? This happens so frequently that the stereotypical image of a preschool teacher is someone that knows several fantasy stories and tries to keep the children entertained all day.

"2) Children that are stuck in a fantasy world do have trouble connecting to reality." I've seen before where children are so wrapped up in a superhero game that they really have a big part of them think they are in a superhero world. I think every child slips into this from time to time, but I have seen that rare child who lives in this. There was no easy way to deal with his aggressive behavior or his inability to NOT be a superhero (such as when playing tag, you can't get tagged...Superman is faster. And when you are tagged, you're frustrated because of this conflict and confusion). So fantasy stories, especially for a younger child, can lead to a lot of stress if the child takes that reality as an alternative to true reality.


"3) The difference between fantasy and reality is blurred at a young age." This is obvious to everyone who has ever heard of Santa Clause. Children do look to adults to help them clarify what's real and what's not. It is a trust they have in us and it is a delicate balance of how to handle that trust. Children tend to be upset once they discover there is no Santa Clause.

"4) Too often, adults do use fantasy as a form of manipulation." Have we ever heard this phrase:
--Santa Clause is watching you.
Unfortunately, we do use fantasy as a form of manipulating children. I am sure there are times when it might be nice for a parent to just say, "Santa Clause is watching you" and have the child stop immediately. There are also times it can be taken too far. Where that line is, I don't think is an easy question to answer. Obviously, an extreme answer like abuse is a given that it's wrong. But what about when a child does something wrong and we do remind them that "Santa is watching." It might be a nice, quick fix, but does it help in long term moral development? How will their behavior change when they finally realize no Santa Clause is watching them? It's more important to focus on a more reflective reason as much as possible. Though I acknowledge parents cannot do that 100% of the time.

"5) Fantasy does not necessarily mean "imagination" or "creativity."" Most toys we see today are not open ended. They are manipulative materials designed to look exactly like something the child has seen in a movie or television show. The child generally acts out what he sees on television. Not necessarily "exactly" what he sees.

I think, if nothing else, Montessori's view on fantasy should call us to at least examine how we use fantasy. If we use it, is there a way we can use it and help the child begin to see the difference between reality and fantasy?

Matt
post #22 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattBronsil View Post

1) The real world is filled with imagination.
2) Children that are stuck in a fantasy world do have trouble connecting to reality.
3) The difference between fantasy and reality is blurred at a young age.
4) Too often, adults do use fantasy as a form of manipulation.
5) Fantasy does not necessarily mean "imagination" or "creativity."

What we discover with children is a love of the real world. We simply have to spark that interest and they look at it and are able to imagine so much. So it surprises me when a "traditional" teacher might shy away from teaching 3-6 year old children the different parts of the plant, the life cycles of various animals, or other aspects of nature. Right when a time that a child's imagination is at its peak, we tend to shy away from getting them to imagine about real things. We replace them with things that aren't real. So it's no longer a "Imagine what a dog really does and what he might be thinking." It's now "A dog is talking and playing pool while his friends are playing poker and drinking." (Ok...not an age appropriate story by anyone's imagination, but you get the point). Why are we avoiding, almost entirely, the ability for children to imagine about real life? This happens so frequently that the stereotypical image of a preschool teacher is someone that knows several fantasy stories and tries to keep the children entertained all day.

"2) Children that are stuck in a fantasy world do have trouble connecting to reality." I've seen before where children are so wrapped up in a superhero game that they really have a big part of them think they are in a superhero world. I think every child slips into this from time to time, but I have seen that rare child who lives in this. There was no easy way to deal with his aggressive behavior or his inability to NOT be a superhero (such as when playing tag, you can't get tagged...Superman is faster. And when you are tagged, you're frustrated because of this conflict and confusion). So fantasy stories, especially for a younger child, can lead to a lot of stress if the child takes that reality as an alternative to true reality.


"3) The difference between fantasy and reality is blurred at a young age." This is obvious to everyone who has ever heard of Santa Clause. Children do look to adults to help them clarify what's real and what's not. It is a trust they have in us and it is a delicate balance of how to handle that trust. Children tend to be upset once they discover there is no Santa Clause.

"4) Too often, adults do use fantasy as a form of manipulation." Have we ever heard this phrase:
--Santa Clause is watching you.
Unfortunately, we do use fantasy as a form of manipulating children. I am sure there are times when it might be nice for a parent to just say, "Santa Clause is watching you" and have the child stop immediately. There are also times it can be taken too far. Where that line is, I don't think is an easy question to answer. Obviously, an extreme answer like abuse is a given that it's wrong. But what about when a child does something wrong and we do remind them that "Santa is watching." It might be a nice, quick fix, but does it help in long term moral development? How will their behavior change when they finally realize no Santa Clause is watching them? It's more important to focus on a more reflective reason as much as possible. Though I acknowledge parents cannot do that 100% of the time.

"5) Fantasy does not necessarily mean "imagination" or "creativity."" Most toys we see today are not open ended. They are manipulative materials designed to look exactly like something the child has seen in a movie or television show. The child generally acts out what he sees on television. Not necessarily "exactly" what he sees.

Matt

I think this is a very interesting post, but here is what I think...


1) I absolutely agree that real world is filled with imaginative things for kids to marvel at. I would never be the one to say stop exloring the real world with your kid. However, I just disagree that fairy tales, or fantasy play, is damaging. Balance seems much healtheir than shunning a whole other perspective on the world away. Don't you think?

2) I am very certain that fantasy is not the cause of violent behavior, and I am most confident that a child who is "stuck being superhero" and behaves aggressively has other problems that need to be addressed, and stopping the fairy tales coming into the house will not be the key to solving these problems...

3) I agree that the reality and fantasy are blurred. I have no problems with helping kids to sort it out. As far as Santa goes, I hope I won't get flamed for "playing Santa", if only for the reason of remmebering how magical it felt when I was a child. I was not one of the kids who was devastated, whatever it was, I was simply sad that I never got presents for anyone in the family because I relied on Santa. I wouldn't trade the magic of it for the world though, so trying to use it as a reason of not bringing magic into a child's world is kind of wasted on me who LOVED the magic beliefs of childhood. DSD is now 15, and she understands Santa is not real. We always "played Santa", she left cookies out at her mom's house, she even left "deer food" for the deer. She doesn't recall it with bitterness, she recalls it with fondness as a warm family tradition. Should we have limited her experience in magic play just because it's not what Montessori approves of?.. She also wrote a letter to a tooth fairy once... It was priceless... You bet she sorted it out by now, but that letter is very cute, and will be saved for her kids to read. She does not regret any of those experiences...

4) I do believe that adults use magic to manipulate the kids, however, let's address that as a separate issue, and not say that fairy tales are bad, or that fantasy play is bad. How about just saying "any form of manipulation is bad, fantasy or not".

5) I think fantasy and the kinds of toys you buy for your kid are two separate issues once again. Waldorf forum is filled with parents who favor open-ended toys yet allow the fantasy world to become an integritive part of their kids childhood. (I'm not a Waldorf parent, I'm just showing an example to prove the point that fantasy doesn't mean unimaginative toys).

_________________

On my own childhood...

I clearly remember creating all kinds of worlds that we have never read about or were exposed to before...

*** I remember "giving tours through a poisoneous garden".
*** I remember pretending being swans people that are at war with eagle people.
*** I remember pretending being a dog who is a best friend of a little girl named Lilly (always played by my sister, this was our favorite pretend game at a young age 4-7ish).
*** Heck, I remember pretending that our bathroom is a spaceship, and if you enter it you will be abducted by aliens! And the stories we used to tell each other after each "abduction"... You had to be there!! :

At no point did I really think that I'm abducted, or that tree sap can kill me, or that I AM a dog, or that eagles are evil ruled by an evil eagle lord. I was never a violent or an aggresive child. I LOVED my fairy tales from around the world books (especially the scary tales ), I loved a book about three toys becoming alive and trying to find their owner, a little boy. But guess what... I also loved receiving a book on migration in the animal world (from butterflies to dolphins), I loved every true story about dogs, horses, and zoo animals. I loved stories about real kids...

My question is: how do you imagine limiting my choices in play and books would enrich my life as a child? If I ever choose to LIMIT (and that's a very strong word with very real consequences of never being exposed to something) my child in something, I hope I have a better reason than "neighbor's kid gets violent when he pretents to be a superman".

Kwim?
post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkm1968 View Post
....are actually cleverly-packaged tie-ins to movies and TV shows!! Last year, Fi's school had a Scholastic Books book fair, and most of the "picture" books were about Dora the Explora, Spongebob, Bob the Builder, the Backyardigans, Barbie (!!!!), Fairly Odd Parents, etc, etc, etc.

I have a freaking hard enough time keeping my kids away from the TV, and now a bookfair is encouraging them to watch even more!
I've checked out some Dora books from the Library and I have to say I'm most unimpressed with them. Ugh. My DD likes them and she likes the Scooby Doo books - but they too are not very good IMO. I prefer the books that were written to be just themselves - not recreations of some TV/Movie.

My almost 3-year-old likes both the fantasy and the reality books. Just depends on what she is interested in any given day. If she is interested in a specific topic, I try to get books on that topic for her. Last trip to the library was fictional picture books with pirates and basic books on butterflies.
post #24 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrzos View Post
I Right now, my ds (3.5) likes mostly reality based books. We have some easy reader and step into reading books from my sis (public school teacher) on wolves, dinosaurs, snakes, etc. He really likes these - even when they run 60 pages long with tons of facts. We went to the zoo yesterday and he was trying to find the clear protective cap over the snakes eyes... (something from the snake book).
...
I would love to know more information about these books, thanks! I want to get some good books on animals, etc. for Alek, also 3.5
post #25 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBecks View Post
I would love to know more information about these books, thanks! I want to get some good books on animals, etc. for Alek, also 3.5
"About..." series have all kinds of animals facts books. For example: About Arachnids, and About Mammals .

This one seems like a lot of fun: Birds, Nests and Eggs, as well as this one from the same series Caterpillars, Bugs & Butterflies

Just wanted to be helpful, not just oppinionated.
post #26 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
1) I absolutely agree that real world is filled with imaginative things for kids to marvel at. I would never be the one to say stop exloring the real world with your kid. However, I just disagree that fairy tales, or fantasy play, is damaging. Balance seems much healtheir than shunning a whole other perspective on the world away. Don't you think?
*I* obviously agree :-)

Quote:

2) I am very certain that fantasy is not the cause of violent behavior, and I am most confident that a child who is "stuck being superhero" and behaves aggressively has other problems that need to be addressed, and stopping the fairy tales coming into the house will not be the key to solving these problems...
The main point is more what our role is in helping the child develop a sense of reality and how we view that role.

Quote:
3) I agree that the reality and fantasy are blurred. I have no problems with helping kids to sort it out. As far as Santa goes, I hope I won't get flamed for "playing Santa", if only for the reason of remmebering how magical it felt when I was a child. I was not one of the kids who was devastated, whatever it was, I was simply sad that I never got presents for anyone in the family because I relied on Santa. I wouldn't trade the magic of it for the world though, so trying to use it as a reason of not bringing magic into a child's world is kind of wasted on me who LOVED the magic beliefs of childhood. DSD is now 15, and she understands Santa is not real. We always "played Santa", she left cookies out at her mom's house, she even left "deer food" for the deer. She doesn't recall it with bitterness, she recalls it with fondness as a warm family tradition. Should we have limited her experience in magic play just because it's not what Montessori approves of?.. She also wrote a letter to a tooth fairy once... It was priceless... You bet she sorted it out by now, but that letter is very cute, and will be saved for her kids to read. She does not regret any of those experiences...
Why did you add that you weren't devastated by it? That's almost a sign that you missed what I typed.

Quote:
4) I do believe that adults use magic to manipulate the kids, however, let's address that as a separate issue, and not say that fairy tales are bad, or that fantasy play is bad. How about just saying "any form of manipulation is bad, fantasy or not".
When writing a compilation of reasons that add up, it's hard to address things as single, separate issues.

Quote:
5) I think fantasy and the kinds of toys you buy for your kid are two separate issues once again. Waldorf forum is filled with parents who favor open-ended toys yet allow the fantasy world to become an integritive part of their kids childhood. (I'm not a Waldorf parent, I'm just showing an example to prove the point that fantasy doesn't mean unimaginative toys).
Cool. Because that's not the point I made either.

Quote:
My question is: how do you imagine limiting my choices in play and books would enrich my life as a child? If I ever choose to LIMIT (and that's a very strong word with very real consequences of never being exposed to something) my child in something, I hope I have a better reason than "neighbor's kid gets violent when he pretents to be a superman".

Kwim?
Yes, but again...not the point of what I typed.
post #27 of 31
My own observation is that when I read ds a non-fiction book about the lives of knights, for example, he plays imaginatively as a knight. When we read the Chronicles of Narnia, he pretty much copies the story in his play. So, I prefer to read him non-fiction. I feel like he takes the information and processes it in his own way and creates something new. I also feel that at 5 his is finally old enough to appriciate literature and so I have been reading novels to him as well. I think the non-fiction enhances his creativity and the fiction is teaching him about myths, and story structure, plot, character, etc.

I think there is enough magic in the real world. Water turning into steam, red and yellow making orange, caterpillars turning into moths, flowers turning into squash, the moon and stars moving, fossils in the ground, etc. We didn't do santa and tooth fairy because I just couldn't lie to him. He is very concerned with what is real and isn't. He surprised me this week by being confused about actors on TV. I thought he understood that the families on TV aren't really related and they are just characters. He is so sophisiticated in someways, and obviously, still confused in other ways.

I haven't had any problem finding non-fiction for him. Most bookstores have a "science/animal" section or a history section. Also, the level 3 early readers have a lot of info and pictures.
post #28 of 31
Basically the books he is into now are the level 2 or 3 Step into Reading or All Aboard Reading books. Lemme see...

Dinosaur Days is by Joyce Milton
http://www.amazon.com/Dinosaur-Days-...5651088&sr=8-1

Snakes - forget the author, might be this one but I have an earlier version with different cover art
http://www.amazon.com/S-S-snakes-Ste...ref=pd_sim_b_5


If you look at the bottom on amazon for one of those, it will display others - dolphins, whales, etc.

Oh - the Baby Wolf one is an All Aboard Reading book - I think this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Baby-Wolf-Aboa...5651236&sr=1-1

HTH!
post #29 of 31
My dd and I really like the "stopwatch books" by silver burdett press. There are many of them on amazon. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?...+books&x=0&y=0 We also use them in the Casa. There are a few book series on Montessori Services
I urge you to look at Aline Wolf's collection:

I also found this website when doing the google for above:
http://www.jacketflap.com

I think introducing and favoring reality based stories is helpful for young children. Every family finds their own way to balance this equation with what is a comfortable level for them.

Montessori recommends non-fiction for the under 6 set, but she appreciated the sensitivity to fantasy in the child in the second plane of development. She examines how to appeal to the child's moralistic tendency through fairy tales and legends. Also, many of the "Great Lessons", which are presented in the first year of elementary, involve personification/characterization of natural processes.
post #30 of 31
My dd and I really like the "stopwatch books" by silver burdett press. There are many of them on amazon. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?...+books&x=0&y=0 We also use them in the Casa. There are a few book series on Montessori Services that are really nice: www.montessoriservices.com

I also found this website when doing the google for above:
http://www.jacketflap.com

I think introducing and favoring reality based stories is helpful for young children. Every family finds their own way to balance this equation with what is a comfortable level for them.

Montessori recommends non-fiction for the under 6 set, but she appreciated the sensitivity to fantasy of the child in the second plane of development. She examines how to appeal to the child's moralistic tendency through fairy tales and legends. Also, many of the "Great Lessons", which are presented in the first year of elementary, involve personification/characterization of natural processes.
post #31 of 31
We love all sorts of books here! We have an extensive collection of fiction and non-fiction both. I do have to say though that both of my boys (4 and 6) are very drawn to science/nature types of books, and seem to prefer these over fantasy and fairy tales. I don't encourage it one way or another, I just offer many options and they get to choose what they want to read. We love the Magic School Bus books that someone linked earlier and agree that the old ones are better. I bought a nice lot off Ebay for a good price. Definitely check there.

The other books that my 4yo loves (and they have in his M library at school too) are the Scholastic First Discovery books. The hardcover ones are better than the paperback, but the hardcovers are only available on Ebay/used. They are about a science or geography type of topic, and they have these clear overlays that expose the inside of the piano, for example in the musical instruments book, when you turn the page. He LOVES them!

Usborne has a lot of good non-fiction as well.

And the Life Cycle of the XYZ books by Bobbie Kalman are also very good.

Life Cycle of a Butterfly

Life Cycle of a Frog
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