Five Finger Rule??? - Page 3

[justthinkn]

I don't know, maybe because I've had good experiences with LC's, maybe b/c I have IGT, maybe b/c I know how hard it is to really get what the LC is telling you when you're just totally freaked out in general... It just seems like we're being pretty harsh here without knowing all the facts.

ETA: My DD really seemed like she was doing okay at first, diapers, alertnesss... But her weight was way too slow, and eventually she was less and less satisfied at the breast. Diagnosis was confirmed by working with LC for months, before and after feeding weigh-ins, etc... Just trying to say, not all cases of low supply are totally obvious at first.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by ccohenou

Using formula-based growth charts wouldn't raise false alarms for FTT in a month-old baby. The differences in growth charts where a normal weight may be lower in a breastfed baby are at 6 months plus.

Ah good. Still think we don't actually know if there's FTT since it hasn't been mentioned, but definitely good to know that the growth chart isn't a problem until after 6 months.

Originally Posted by ccohenou

I think my point about misinterpreting information is being made on this thread. The OP said the LC said the friend should supplement. Everyone is outraged because they think the LC said she is completely incapable of breastfeeding, should stop trying, etc. That's not what was said, at least in the paraphrase. "Need to supplement" does not mean "don't bother trying to breastfeed."

What's concerning me at least is "but now the babe is half on formula too." Is the breast being offered first? Also, the way it seems that a heuristic was applied without fully explaining why it was a heuristic.

Anyway, I'm really glad the lady is seeing a new person, because the first LC did not come across as professional. She was surprised that the hospital nurse didn't tell this woman that she was "too small to breastfeed"?

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by justthinkn

I don't know, maybe because I've had good experiences with LC's, maybe b/c I have IGT, maybe b/c I know how hard it is to really get what the LC is telling you when you're just totally freaked out in general... It just seems like we're being pretty harsh here without knowing all the facts.

ETA: My DD really seemed like she was doing okay at first, diapers, alertnesss... But her weight was way too slow, and eventually she was less and less satisfied at the breast. Diagnosis was confirmed by working with LC for months, before and after feeding weigh-ins, etc... Just trying to say, not all cases of low supply are totally obvious at first.

Did the LC tell you at your first meeting that your breasts were too small and you would have to supplement?

[CEG]

:

Originally Posted by MiamiMami

I think one of the characteristics of hypoplastic breasts is that you can fit your fist between them. However, that alone is not the way to determine whether or not she can produce an adequate milk supply.

Please have your friend see another LC asap.

: obviously not the only thing you would use to determine milk supply, but it can be a sign of hypoplastic breasts.

[justthinkn]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Did the LC tell you at your first meeting that your breasts were too small and you would have to supplement?

I didn't think to even ask at my first appointment, which goes to my point about how out of it you can be when stressed about nursing and your child's weight gain!

But yeah, my LC was pretty certain about the IGT from that first appointment, with the appearance of my breasts being a strong clue ("small" isn't the best word, of course, it's a particular kind of smallness - lacking fullness where even "small" women usually have it), and insisted on the weekly meetings for weigh-ins since I didn't immediately supplement - which I imagine would be hard with an out-of-town LC like this scenario.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that people are making pretty strong comments with limited information. And I wonder if you hear these things differently when you know from painful experience that something kind of like this LC seemed to say can be accurate.

[cancat]

I guess the thing is, the LCs I've worked with have tried everything possible, with multiple appointments, before telling someone "they couldn't breastfeed". And even then, I don't think they say that. They've said, the combination of hypoplastic breasts and a baby with low-tone/energy might mean that you need to pump after every feed, or use a supplementer, etc. Not a quick judgement after one appointment.

To truly judge whether a baby is getting enough (especially a baby who is otherwise happy), and why, you need an accurate hospital-grade scale, and a couple appointments, AT LEAST.

[Love_My_Bubba]

:That's messed up

[MarcyC]

You can have teeny tiny breasts packed full of nothing but rich-milk producing glands. And you can have ginormous double-D's and have nothing in there but fatty tissue and very few (if any) milk glands.

Size is not an issue!

[racheloperasinger]

I just don't know where these myths originate from.

[hippiemum21580]

Ummm, okay.....I totally just read through this and tested it all on myself...i can TOTALLY fit 5 fingers between my girls..... My size 32a bras are too big on me for that matter.....that being said, i have nursed 4 boys, and have wetnursed and donated milk due to an OVERABUNDANT supply! I am currently 3 months preggers whilst nursing my toddler....... Nuf said, IMO!

[APmomto3boys]

I help on a mainstream pregnancy board's breastfeeding support forum. I have been doing this for 3 years now and I have seen some bad advice given out by a lot of lactation consultants. I have also witnessed it with myself and my SIL first hand. I think some get into it for the wrong reasons. I think that some are already working in the hospitals and then add the LC credentials. Its sad, really. I think some are just exhausted by the 'system'.

[AlexisT]

Also, "lactation consultant" is not a protected term--only IBCLC is. Anyone can call themselves an LC.

As all the above posters said, yes, there's something to the theory about spacing but it's not conclusive. I would be concerned because you say she's not getting much when she pumps; that's not a good sign. Also, the baby is 1 month old so signs of FTT would be small at this point. Weight is what the ped has to go on.

Depending on the severity of IGT, it can be possible to raise output somewhat using various techniques. But the woman with IGT will "max out" at a lower level than a woman with normal breast tissue. A good LC can do things to keep baby getting at least some breast milk (for example not supplementing using bottles). But generally, women with IGT do need to at least supplement.

And yes, before formula was developed, babies did starve to death. (of course, some were wet-nursed, people tried various substitutes, but Henri Nestle's invention was really a lifesaver for babies.)

[homewithtwinsmama]

As all the above posters said, yes, there's something to the theory about spacing but it's not conclusive. I would be concerned because you say she's not getting much when she pumps; that's not a good sign. Also, the baby is 1 month old so signs of FTT would be small at this point. Weight is what the ped has to go on.


Some women are lousy pumpers. I am one. Can't get much with even a good breastpump, but babies grow when I feed em. Need a breastmilk scale to do before and after weights to conclusively say if she has enough milk or not.

[AlexisT]

Oh yes. Sorry. It's not much in and of itself, but coupled with the other things it's worrying. If baby were fat and gaining well and she just couldn't pump, no problem. But weight gain is slow AND she can't pump... bad sign. Happened to me.

[Lilcrunchie]

Originally Posted by hippiemum21580

Ummm, okay.....I totally just read through this and tested it all on myself...i can TOTALLY fit 5 fingers between my girls..... My size 32a bras are too big on me for that matter.....that being said, i have nursed 4 boys, and have wetnursed and donated milk due to an OVERABUNDANT supply! I am currently 3 months preggers whilst nursing my toddler....... Nuf said, IMO!

Agreeing!! I haven't done the wet nurse thing or donated (but wow to you mama for doing so ), but I am very small chested (and my breasts never really grew in pregnancy, but I'd go up a cup size or so once my kidlets were born). I totally violate the 5 finger rule *and* I have PCOS (which in pregnancy worried me a lot. I called a LC when I was still pg with my oldest because I was worried about supply).

With both kids, if anything I had an oversupply/overactive letdown. I tandem nurse a 4 year old and an 18 mo old.

eta: rechecking myself LOL. I can fit 5 fingers barely, but I have very small fingers. How do you measure finger size, kwim? Who's fingers determine the 5 finger rule? So arbitrary.

[lawschoolmama]

Whatever, I'm so small-breasted and have had no milk supply problems at all with BFing DD. I'm so sick of all the horrible BFing information moms get from "professionals." I had quite a bit of it myself at first :