Is a time-out appropriate for a 19mon old?

[kdescalzi]

Hey mamas,

First , I would like to say I am not a big believer in the whole time-out thing. I have seen on many occasions that it simply is not effective. In the same breathe though I must say I do not know of any other way to handle ds when he hits me. We will just be playing, tickling ect and he will get worked up and hit me on the head. Now, he knows that is not ok but he is testing me. When I say we do not hit mommy, we are gentle with mommy and I show him nice soft touches he gets mad at me. He starts to fuss and cry and whine at me like I have taken away his favorite toy or something..its kind of a weird response but I think he is just not used to me being very firm with him. This hitting thing is definately where I will take a more firm stand for obvious reasons but also because we have our 2 dogs and he likes to hit them after petting them. I will never allow him to be unkind to the dogs and he knows it. Anyway, when he hits after I have explained not to, I say ok, no more playing with mommy or the dog and I have been putting him in his room. I shut the door and he plays alone for awhile. Is this the right approach?? I want him to learn if he hits, he gets removed from the fun situation but his room his full of fun toys as well. Do I put him in a play pen?? I have never used one, but I do have one that stores toys. Please let me know what to do that is appropriate for a 19 mo old...at this age there is not a whole lot of reasoning with him but he knows when mommy is upset. Thanks in advance

[paquerette]

No, I don't think it's appropriate at this age, and I also don't think that he knows it's wrong and is testing you. I think you need to just redirect. Showing the gentle touches is part of that, but don't dwell on that for too long. Move on to another toy or activity, preferably something that will be quieter and calming.

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/peter_haiman.html
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/looking_past.html

[janinemh]

Personally, I don't think time outs are appropriate for a child that young ( kind of don't think they are ever appropriate...but I'm still working on whether I believe that). I don't think they are going to understand the link between their hitting behavior and the time out.

My DS went through a hitting phase around the same age as your LO and, as with you, it was one area where we were quite firm about it not being OK. But, after saying "no hitting," we tried to focus on modeling gentle behavior and having him practice gentle touches. And we talked about how the hitting hurt our bodies and feelings.

We also tried to look at when and why the hitting was happening: Is he tired? Over-stimulated? Super excited? Just exploring what happens when he does A to B? In my son's case, for instance, one link we noticed, was when he has been eating processed fructose (juice, agave nectar, honey...) he gets really hyper and will bite and hit as a way to let off steam. So we avoid too much fructose now.

There were a few times when he hit me and, for what ever reason, it pushed my buttons too much and I got angry/frustrated and I needed to put some separation between the two of us to calm down. Then, I would usually explain that mama was done playing for now and we could play again in a bit (with not hitting). This was more about a time out for ME and usually just involved me moving across the room for a little bit.

[LynnS6]

No, not time out in the "you sit here for 2 minutes because you did something bad" kind of meaning. At this age, they can't link the action with the punishment.

Yes, if it's a way to separate him and his victim and give you time to cool off.

At this age, for you, if you've already modeled "gentle" and he's still hitting, you might just try standing up and walking off when he hits. "Ouch, that hurts mommy. I'm not going to play if you hurt me." For the dogs, you might just have to keep him separated from the dogs.

At this age prevention is much more effective than 'punishment' of any kind. Eventually he'll be old enough to have some impulse control.

[gosoul2soul]

I say yes it is appropriate that they may not complete understand but it will be in them that if they do something you don't like you will be punished

[kungfu_barbi]

Originally Posted by gosoul2soul

I say yes it is appropriate that they may not complete understand but it will be in them that if they do something you don't like you will be punished

a few things:

1. welcome to MDC.

2. i'm not sure i 100% understand your post because of the pronoun shift. it looks like the use of the word 'you' in you will be punished refers to the parent. did you mean that the children will be punished if they do something inappropriate?

3. for futrue reference and for your own benefit, you might want to familiarize yourself with some of the parenting philosophy here. you could read through the stickies, etc... typically, gentle discipline is non-punitive approach to parenting.

peace

[Kessed]

I don't think a classical time-out is appropriate.

But - I don't think that there is anything wrong with trying redirection - and if that doesn't work - trying separation.

With my DD (who is also 19 months) it goes something like this:

DD: *whack* *whack* *giggle giggle*
ME: Do NOT hit mama. Gentle touches. Do you want to tickle me?

DD: *whack* *whack* *giggle giggle*
ME: If you hit me again - I will put you on the floor! Can you pet mama? Where's mama's nose? How about mama's sholders?

**She can and does know the difference between pointing out body parts and hitting**

DD: *whack* *whack* *giggle giggle*

- At this point I put her on the floor. I'm not angry, I don't yell. Sometimes I might say "Don't hit mama" - but not always. Then I go back to doing what ever it was that I was doing.

If she asks to be picked up immediately (happens half the time) then I wil remind her "Only gentle touches" and pick her up. She doesn't get any more 'warnings'. So if I pick her up and she hits me right away - then I put her back down.

If she runs off to play, or waits for more than 5 minutes - then it resets.

Truthfully - it seems like sometimes she will want to push and test the limit in every way shape or form during a short time period - and then we go for days or weeks without it happening.

Last night she was kicking me or DH in bed as we were going to sleep. We put her out of the bed probably 10 times in the span of 15 minutes for it. But in the end she lay between us kicking the air.... Her foot was coming withing an inch of me - but she was very careful not to let it land... We think that she may just take after me... (I'm a limit pusher/tester too)

[GoBecGo]

The only sort of timeout i'd use in that situation is if it really hurt i'd say "mama doesn't like to be hit, if you're excited/frustrated you can hit the cushion" put him down, within sight and with nice toys to play with (and of course the cushion) and keep my distance until i'd gotten over it a bit (a moment or two). The natural consequence of hitting people is that they won't want to be near you, so it's not cruel to demonstrate this.

The problem with "time out" is that most kids his age (and older) will be so distressed by the separation they won't remember what it is they did that heralded it. It's like walking along the pavement and a car mounts the kerb and knocks you down because you stepped on a crack. Him hitting might be a big deal to you, but if you demonstrate it in a grossly ott way it will actually take him longer to "get it" as such. Also if you don't give him a tool to handle the emotion he might have to take himself off to his room rather often until he gets a handle on his emotions.

My DD still hits occasionally, but more often than not she will physically halt, mid-swing, and hit the sofa or a toy instead. She's slowly learning to redirect her anger.

[widemouthedfrog]

I agree that you could give yourself a time out instead. In a positive, take deep breaths kind of way. When dd hits me out of frustration (she is 3), I ask her not to hit mama and I move away. Not far, I just move.

I don't think that my dd is able to hear "don't hit me" when she is so angry. She is just focused on her angry feeling. Later, when she is not so frustrated, I re-explain that hitting hurts me.

Likewise, perhaps your ds is focused on the fun of hitting and your reaction, or he might be so engaged in the physical tickling/petting the dog that he uses his hands harshly. Moving away breaks that focus and might upset him, but it does set a boundary - that sort of action is not ok.

I don't think that putting him in his room would really make a connection between the hitting and hurting. It would just make him upset in a new way.

[prothyraia]

I agree with the PP's that a traditional time out isn't likely to be effective. With my 20 month old, after a reminder or two to use gentle touches, I seperate myself from immediate physical contact with him. Or remove him from the person/animal that he's hitting. It's framed as "I won't let you hurt Mama/Doggie/Person" or "Mama has to keep the doggie safe".

He absolutely is not permitted to continue the behavior, but I don't think that putting him in a different room or making him sit down in a specific spot is particularly relevant to that. I *have* had days where I needed to put a door or gate between the two of us because I was getting way too angry and feeling really encroached upon, and I think that's okay too.

[kiwiva]

I agree that time out isn't really going to do much at this age. My DD is 20 mos and when she does these things-hitting, pulling the cat's tail or whatever I just stop the behavior as calmly as possible and explain we don't hit, gentle touch, etc. Then I redirect and don't make a big deal out of it. Have you read Unconditional Parenting? The author argues against time out at any age; made sense to me.

Generally speaking, I don't think DD would associate the time-out consequence with the act of hitting. It seems that hitting is often either done for the interesting reaction it illicits from us (in play) or done out of frustration. So punishing with time out isn't really going to be that helpful for curbing that behavior, I don't think. Certainly when it is done out of frustration it is a case of them not being able to express themselves in a more appropriate way. Punishing that isn't really going to help them with that, yk? That's been my experience with my one DD, FWIW.

[Mizelenius]

No. A 19 month old is almost still an infant. If your DC is verbal, it is even easier to forget how little a 19 mo is, but they are SO young at that age.

I would avoid the sort of play that is getting him overstimulated. Prevent, redirect, and then hug/show affection.

[mrscompgeek]

I DO thing that 19 months is old enough to understand time out. I used to babysit a 18 month old and he was rotten!!! His parents gave me permission to use time out although they dont enforce it very much at home. Within 4 weeks of using it he knew exactly what it meant! I tried to get him to pick up his toys before nap time and he would throw his toys around the room cause he didnt want to pick them up. So whenever he would start throwing them I would pick him up and sit him in a time out chair. After the 3rd week of doing this one day he started throwing his toys at naptime again and I looked at him and said his name and he crawls over to the timeout chair and sits in it and says "I sowwy I frow toys". So IT IS POSSIBLE for one that young to understand the concept.

[Janelovesmax]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

The only sort of timeout i'd use in that situation is if it really hurt i'd say "mama doesn't like to be hit, if you're excited/frustrated you can hit the cushion" put him down, within sight and with nice toys to play with (and of course the cushion) and keep my distance until i'd gotten over it a bit (a moment or two). The natural consequence of hitting people is that they won't want to be near you, so it's not cruel to demonstrate this.

The problem with "time out" is that most kids his age (and older) will be so distressed by the separation they won't remember what it is they did that heralded it. It's like walking along the pavement and a car mounts the kerb and knocks you down because you stepped on a crack. Him hitting might be a big deal to you, but if you demonstrate it in a grossly ott way it will actually take him longer to "get it" as such. Also if you don't give him a tool to handle the emotion he might have to take himself off to his room rather often until he gets a handle on his emotions.

My DD still hits occasionally, but more often than not she will physically halt, mid-swing, and hit the sofa or a toy instead. She's slowly learning to redirect her anger.

I agree with this response...

[Janelovesmax]

Originally Posted by mrscompgeek

I DO thing that 19 months is old enough to understand time out. I used to babysit a 18 month old and he was rotten!!! His parents gave me permission to use time out although they dont enforce it very much at home. Within 4 weeks of using it he knew exactly what it meant! I tried to get him to pick up his toys before nap time and he would throw his toys around the room cause he didnt want to pick them up. So whenever he would start throwing them I would pick him up and sit him in a time out chair. After the 3rd week of doing this one day he started throwing his toys at naptime again and I looked at him and said his name and he crawls over to the timeout chair and sits in it and says "I sowwy I frow toys". So IT IS POSSIBLE for one that young to understand the concept.

I'm so perplexed you called a child "rotten" then I can't bring myself to read the rest of your psot.

[DevaMajka]

Punishment, at best, makes kids behave for self centered reasons. "I don't want a time out, so I won't hit" instead of "Mom doesn't like to be hit. I won't hit her." I think that the threat of punishments creates an incredibly self centered thought process in reference to those behaviors.
They don't learn that their actions affect others. Even if you try to teach them, much of that lesson would be overlooked because the child is focused on the punishment- how mad they are, how sad they are, how mean the parent is (in their mind), etc.

It also works as kind of a "payment" where sometimes (I imagine for older kids) it would be worth the "payment" to do something. Or they may feel free to do it when they are safe from punishment, as when a parent isn't there watching.

Also, and maybe most importantly imo, they aren't learning that their feelings are valid, and it's just the way they are expressing it that isn't acceptable. They aren't learning more acceptable ways of expressing themselves. All they know through punishment is that something unpleasant happens when they do x. They don't know what to do instead, or even that they *should* do something instead.

My strategy was this:
1. give information. That included telling ds in no uncertain terms "Do NOT hit me. I don't like to be hit." I'm very firm about hitting. It is totally not ok with me.
2. honor the impulse. There's a reason he's hitting. Find out what it is. One example with my ds, for a few days when he was much younger, he was hitting me with his books. I eventually (after yelling, leaving the room, giving information, etc) figured out that he was hitting me because he wanted me to read to him.
3. Redirect in a way that honors the impulse/find acceptable alternatives. Give them some very specific ideas of ways to express that impulse in an acceptable way. With the book thing, I eventually figured out to tell my ds "If you want me to read to you, put the book in my hand." That was the answer, and he never hit me with a book since.

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by mrscompgeek

After the 3rd week of doing this one day he started throwing his toys at naptime again and I looked at him and said his name and he crawls over to the timeout chair and sits in it and says "I sowwy I frow toys". So IT IS POSSIBLE for one that young to understand the concept.

Poor little kid. What a sad story. Do his parents know you thought their 18 mo was "rotten"? Did you consider that maybe he was tired, since it happened at "naptime AGAIN"?

I don't think this belongs under gentle discipline-- putting a "rotten" 18 mo in time out and claiming this to be a valid and effective form of discipline does not sit right with me.

ETA: I think some books on child development might help you see that your expectations were simply unrealistic, esp. since I see you have your own little one on the way.

[mrscompgeek]

Yes his parents know he is rotten. His parents tell people he is rotten. They have not disiplined him at all for the most part and pretty much let him hit them, his siblings, throw things, yell. . . And it did not just happen at naptime. I also made him put his toys away before he would leave and he would throw a tantrum again. His mom doesnt make him put his toys away at home and so when she would pick him up and make him put his toys away at my house he didnt think he had to.

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by mrscompgeek

Yes his parents know he is rotten. His parents tell people he is rotten. They have not disiplined him at all for the most part and pretty much let him hit them, his siblings, throw things, yell. . . And it did not just happen at naptime. I also made him put his toys away before he would leave and he would throw a tantrum again. His mom doesnt make him put his toys away at home and so when she would pick him up and make him put his toys away at my house he didnt think he had to.

Why would anyone make him put away his toys? He's TOO LITTLE. An 18 mo is just barely, barely past the infant stage. Would you expect a baby to clean up after himself? He sounds like he is very verbal-- on one hand, that's great, but on the other, it makes life harder for him. Verbally advanced children give people the impression that they are much older than they actually are. This, in turn, sometimes leads people to have unrealistic expectations of them . . .this poor child already has the label of rotten. At 18 months. Not even here on this earth for 2 years-- incredible. With all of these impossible expectations and negativity, it's little wonder that he hits and throws things.

Is this for real? I'm starting to doubt it.

[Polliwog]

Most toddlers of that age don't put their toys away. They participate in cleaning up with an adult or put one or two things away. Your expectations are way too high.

Make a game out of it. There's no reason that cleaning up with a young child can't be fun. Any experience for a little one is a learning experience. Children learn as much through routines as they do from anything else.