Cows milk bad for the immune system? - Page 2

[AJP]

Originally Posted by veganf

And then vomit like crazy for hours!

Not mine. My dogs get whey (left over from cheese-making) or buttermilk (from butter-making) almost every day, and occasionally whole, raw milk, and do quite well with it. No vomiting, and they're quite healthy for being as old as they are. My cat loves raw milk, it doesn't make him vomit either. Same goes for my chickens. And my human family, for that matter.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend anyone consume large amounts of conventional, pasteurized, homogenized milk or products made with it. It very well may be "bad for the immune system", along with other problems. Real, fresh, unprocessed milk and its derivatives are a different story. I've read all that anti-milk stuff, extensively, but as I kept looking into the matter I decided most of it was either total bunk or applied only to conventional, industrial, commodified dairy. Sorry I don't have time to go into more depth, but you could try reading The Untold Story of Milk by Ron Schmid, and Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price, for a different perspective from the vegan and notmilk.com stuff on the suitability of milk as a factor of human nutrition.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by veganf

And then vomit like crazy for hours!

Only if their poor bodies are toxic from the feeding of inappropriate cooked foods. Have you never read the work of Francis Pottenger?

BTW, I was referring to raw milk, not the pasteurized kind. I certainly wouldn't feed that to my pet. BTW, I find it interesting that it is still legal in many states to buy raw milk for pet consumption but not for humans.

[alysmommy2004]

We really try to limit dairy in our house, but my DD is a milk addict. I'm slowly trying to get her switched to hemp milk or almond milk, but she really has trouble with the taste. Anyway, I noticed the OP is in NC. I don't know where you are, but the best milk (by best I mean affordable and non convential) I have been able to find is from Homeland Creamery. I buy it at Earth Fare instead of Organic Valley (my next option) or Horizon (which I try to avoid) mainly b/c it's local.

[Beeblebrox]

Originally Posted by veganf

And then vomit like crazy for hours!

I'm not invested in either side of this discussion (just watching), but my animals have never vomited from drinking milk. They have vomited after eating grass, but that's it.

[mamadelbosque]

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that dairy is a horrible/evil thing in our bodies - just as I don't buy that corn or soy are evil and should not be eaten as some do. Seems pretty extreme and egocentric to me, but whatever floats your boat I spose!

[evening start]

Originally Posted by veganf

A few thousand years isn't really that long evolutionarily speaking. And the cultures that do consume a lot of milk developed a mutation that allows them to continue producing the enzyme lactase beyond early childhood; the majority of the world population cannot properly digest lactose in adulthood. And actually the cultures with the highest rates of dairy consumption also have the highest rates of many diet-related diseases and osteoporosis.
Very few of the diets BASED around milk are "just peachy" at all.

Ahhh, but that is exactly the point that makes milk consuming cultures normal (for them). Those mutations you speak of are evolutions response to a new food source. And strictly from a biological sense, this mutation was "beneficial" for the people who developed it, otherwise people with that mutation would not have had many offspring to pass it onto, thus not spreading the mutation throughout the populations of these milk consuming cultures. But happily, for those of us who have inherited the mutation and who LOVE dairy, the mutation was an evolutionary boon. Now, I do agree, if you don't have that mutation, then you will be lactose intolerant and unable to use many of the nutrients in the milk -- so in that case you should avoid it.

In the end I think that people should eat what tastes good and feels right to them, always using moderation and common sense as your guide. Based on your screen name, Veganf, you choose a diet without animal products, which I imagine works well for you. But if you want to make an evolutionary argument, humans are not designed to be herbivores (ask any dentist what our canine teeth are for . A "normal," historically evolutionary diet was probably omnivorous (most likely early hominds were scavengers-- to which I say ewwwww). I don't think that means you HAVE to be an omnivore to be healthy, just because that is our evolutionary past, nor do I think there is any problem with people eating dairy, even though that wasn't part of the earliest hominds diet.

If you like it, and it doesn't make you sick, then dairy is a good source of proteins, fats, and some vitamins and minerals. That being said, I do agree that most of our modern milk supply in this country comes with an unnecessary and unwanted addition of antibiotics and hormones. If you can find a farmer to sell you fresh, raw, organic (or better than organic) milk, definitely go for it. If not, look for organic milk in the groccery store and as with everything use moderation as your guide.

That is my opinion, of course. I am not a doctor (but I am a trained scientist and a biology teacher), so I don't know about the very latest research on dairy and the immune system. But I'm not going to stop eating diary:.

[nurturebaby]

"evening start" said it well...

the other thing that I might add is that (something I once heard when I was considering becoming a vegan), just because something was created to serve one specific purpose (cow's milk to feed a growing calf), doesn't mean that it cannot be a good food source for humans. A tomato's primary purpose is to create more tomato plants, but that doesn't mean that we can't benefit from the nutrients found in a tomato...

Also, as far as the lactose thing goes, if I'm not mistaken, I believe raw milk still contains a fair bit of the enzyme lactase to help with digestion. The lactose intolerance really kicks in when a sensitive person consumes conventional, pasteurized dairy (in which the lactase has been de-activated).

As others have said, it's the pasteurized, homoginized milk that can wreak havoc on our health. Clean, raw milk can be very healthy (yes - even for dogs and cats! (Pottenger's cats! - google it!)

Just some thoughts coming from someone who has been on both sides of this discussion

[Intuition]

I'm not understanding how it's "egocentric" to believe that dairy is not good for our bodies.

[PJJ]

I agree

Originally Posted by wytchywoman

I think cows milk can be bad for a lot of people's immune systems because the incidence of dairy allergies and intolerances is pretty huge. Whenever you consume large amounts of something that your body can't handle, it will wreak havoc with your immune system. I also second the organic suggestion. Stay away from the antibiotics and growth hormones.

IMHO, cow's milk is meant for calves.

[PJJ]

Here are some articles that might help you OP

Originally Posted by ians_mommy

DH told me last night that he read something in Mens Health about cows milk being "bad for the immune system".
Can anyone elaborate more on this?
We are BIG BIG cows milk drinkers/eaters around here. Seriously, between 2 adults we go through at least 2 gallons of milk a week plus cheese, yogurt, cottage cheese etc etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Drink-You.../dp/0945383347

http://members.tripod.com/~josquin/milk.htm

Good luck in your quest for the truth.

[evening start]

Originally Posted by PJJ

IMHO, cow's milk is meant for calves.

And the tasty chemicals in most herbs and spices are meant to STOP animals from eating the plant, but we enjoy them nonetheless . Really most of our food items have another natural purpose -- it is not like there are a bunch of altruistic species out there making food just for us (except for fruit -- and plants only "want" us to eat those so that we spread their seeds around, and I don't know about you, but I don't spread my feces outside to return the blueberry seeds to the soil - I just flush them on down). So yes, cow's mild is meant for calves, that does not automatically exclude it being good for people.

I did look at your links in the following post as well PJJ. I can't read the whole book right now, but I did read the article (which seemed pretty heavily based on the book). There were some interesting ideas in the article, but overall I am skeptical of ANY article that does not include a proper bibliography (it threw around a lot of names with degrees after them, but I always want to be able to trace the research back to the original science -- and I couldn't do that with that article). I'm assuming the book is better at supporting its arguements, and I'll have to check it out of the library sometime. That said, most of the arguements in the article do not seem that different from what folks already said to be the problem with dairy -- pasturized, high hormone, high antibiotic milk isn't great, if you don't have the right genes you can be allergic or lactose intolerant, and too much of anything is bad (I like dairy, but I don't drink 3-4 glasses of milk a day. Is that normal for others?) It didn't really mention much about other dairy products such as yogurt, cheese, butter, etc.

Also, I would never recommend cow's milk to an infant as a replacement for human breast milk. Of course the immunity benefits won't transfer, they are very different immune systems. But an adult with a healthy immune system and the proper genetics for processing milk does not need to have the immune boosting power of milk, and can still benefit from the other nutrients in the milk.

To the OP I would ask the following: Has milk and dairy products made you feel ill, gassy, or bloated before? Do you enjoy dairy products? Do you eat them in moderation as part of a varied, healthy diet?

I would say (again PERSONAL OPINION coming up), if you say "no" to the first, and "yes" to the second two, then continuing to eat dairy is fine and not a danger to your immune system (and PJJ, I don't think this disagrees with anything from your sources, but please elaborate if you have additional information).

[Norasmomma]

I've been lurking and have decided to post my opinion on this.

As a child I drank milk and feel that it did cause me to have excessive mucous and also have effects on my immune system. I drank both reg. milk and local raw dairy milk(even milk from my baby sitter's cow). I had a serious problem with ear/throat infections, but I believe that the combination of the mucous and my infected tonsils were the main culprits. At 16 the doctor finally remove the tonsils, and my throat infections decreased drastically. At 19 I read an article about milk=increased ear/throat infections and decided to cut out milk, and went to drinking soy/rice milks for the next 11 years.

Fast forward to 2.5 years ago, when I was pregnant with my DD, at 4.5 months I woke up one day and wanted milk, not soy milk, not rice milk. I'm talking yummy, cold 2% a big glass of it and that craving continued through out my entire pregnancy and has stayed. During pregnancy I drank a half gallon every couple days, and I also switched to half and half from soy creamer(for my 1/2 cups of coffee). I still have not gone back to soy milk or creamer, my body changed during pregnancy and now soy milk kinda grosses me out, soy creamer makes me sick. I drink milk because my body now feels better when I do. My DD also is a big milk fan, which to me obviously started in the womb. She also likes the other things I craved red peppers and caesar salad, so I guess it started with my cravings.

I'm now a milk drinker, not excessively, but I do love it. I don't feel any better or worse, I strongly believe that pregnancy changed my chemistry and for whatever reason this was what happened to me. It's just my experience.

[Pinky Tuscadero]

Originally Posted by allnaturalmom

There is no such thing as hormone-free milk. The healthiest milk from
the healthiest cow is naturally loaded with lactoferrins,
immunoglobulins, steroid, and protein growth hormones. In an effort to
provide their children with healthy foods, mothers and fathers search
out products that are advertised to be "hormone free." Such marketing is
deceptive. When drinking body fluids from animals, or eating their
flesh, you ingest their naturally occurring hormones.
Read more about this here: http://notmilk.com/hormonefree.html

This makes it sound like you can avoid eating hormones by not eating animal flesh or drinking their bodily fluids. Hormones are in plants, too. Hormones are simply chemicals in the organism that cause change. Without hormones *nothing* would ever happen. No growth, no flowers, no fruit, no babies, etc. Hormones are essential to life. It's the artificial ones you want to avoid.

[ians_mommy]

Originally Posted by evening start

That being said, I do agree that most of our modern milk supply in this country comes with an unnecessary and unwanted addition of antibiotics and hormones. If you can find a farmer to sell you fresh, raw, organic (or better than organic) milk, definitely go for it. If not, look for organic milk in the groccery store and as with everything use moderation as your guide.

That is my opinion, of course. I am not a doctor (but I am a trained scientist and a biology teacher), so I don't know about the very latest research on dairy and the immune system. But I'm not going to stop eating diary:.

I guess this is what I was looking for.
I love milk...love it. With all due respect to the vegan Mamas on here, there is.no.way I am giving up drinking milk anymore than I plan to give up drinking wine or coffee.
That being said, I am always looking to "tweak" our diet to make us stronger and healthier.
I will definately switch back to buying organic and will check into finding a raw source.

[ians_mommy]

Originally Posted by evening start

To the OP I would ask the following: Has milk and dairy products made you feel ill, gassy, or bloated before? Do you enjoy dairy products? Do you eat them in moderation as part of a varied, healthy diet?

I would say (again PERSONAL OPINION coming up), if you say "no" to the first, and "yes" to the second two, then continuing to eat dairy is fine and not a danger to your immune system (and PJJ, I don't think this disagrees with anything from your sources, but please elaborate if you have additional information).

Nope, in fact a glass of cold milk was my first choice to soothe a sour stomach when I was pregnant and a glass of warm milk helps me rest at night.
Yes, I do eat a moslty healthy diet.

[ians_mommy]

Originally Posted by alysmommy2004

We really try to limit dairy in our house, but my DD is a milk addict. I'm slowly trying to get her switched to hemp milk or almond milk, but she really has trouble with the taste. Anyway, I noticed the OP is in NC. I don't know where you are, but the best milk (by best I mean affordable and non convential) I have been able to find is from Homeland Creamery. I buy it at Earth Fare instead of Organic Valley (my next option) or Horizon (which I try to avoid) mainly b/c it's local.

Thanks!
There is a retailer not too far from me.

[MacroMama]

The China Study by Campbell has a lot of information on how dairy affects the body, including acting as trigger for cancer.

Very scientific, very thorough.

I highly recommend it.

[NettleTea]

:

[snowbunny]

Originally Posted by MacroMama

The China Study by Campbell has a lot of information on how dairy affects the body, including acting as trigger for cancer.

Very scientific, very thorough.

I highly recommend it.

I disagree. After reading it, it left me wanting more information. It seemed to have a good premise, but the facts were disjointed and didn't really address the China study itself except in a very perfunctory and superficial way.

It also didn't provide a good case for excluding dairy, only excluding the eating of casein alone. I don't know any dairy eater who eats casein exclusively.

[nurturebaby]

To the OP - check out www.realmilk.com if you're interested in finding a local source of raw milk.

I'm off to check out The China Study!