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post #21 of 39
I agree w/the pps, and dh and I have had this discussion, too. We did Sonlight K and he didn't want me to read dd the bible. Like the pps said, I think it would be difficult to have a good understanding of Western literature and culture without a good understanding of the Christian tradition. And, while it's not necessary to have a good understanding of Western literature and tradition, it is one of my educational goals for my children.

Additionally, I find many of the moral lessons from the Bible, particularly the New Testament, to be more relevant than other myths. My dh feels that Greek, Roman, and Norse myths are more exciting, but I don't feel that there are many moral lessons to be learned from them. Like the pp's example of the Good Samaritan, this is a value that translates to the present. Does that make sense?
post #22 of 39
I agree that it makes up a big part of the US mythology so we will not ignore it. However, as PP stated, we aren't studying it while they are young. When they are a little older, middle school or up we can look at it. My DS does have one of those children's bibles and he was fascinated with it at around 4. I have no desire to go there again any time soon! We also read myths from around the world in part as a counter to the bias that favors Christian myth in this country.
post #23 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by calandals View Post
Its essential to have a good working knowledge of the Bible and its stories if you wish to have a well rounded education. Every educated person absolutely needs to familiarize themselves with the Bible, not for religious reasons but for literary reasons alone.

i would say most people i have met (christian and non christian) have none to very little biblical knowledge, including simple bible stories. yes, individuals know noah took in two animals of every kind....but that is the extent of their knowledge regarding that story and likewise, other bible stories they are familiar with are equally surfaced. i think most americans have very little biblical knowledge at all.... so to say every "educated person" needs to have a good working knowledge of the bible and its stories excludes A LOT of people....most americans actually.

i mean would someone seriously be culturally illiterate if they had no idea that sampson couldn't cut his hair off or he'd lose his super human strength??
post #24 of 39
This question falls into a very interesting area of discussion -- what are our touchstones as a culture?

I totally agree that a basic knowledge of the bible and mythology (roman, greek, egyptian and norse) are very important for any higher level english course (or to enjoy even much of the literature, movies (the Lord of the Rings without knowing any Norse mythology isn't as interesting) and music of today).

I tend to look at this issue as being a pyramid of references that are needed to understand literature, music and art (and even the jokes your co-workers are making) -- some are incredibly basic and should be at the bottom of the pyramid (like the bible and mythology, including the Iliad, the Odyssey and the Aenied), some are a little less basic but very important (like Moby Dick and Huck Finn), and you just move up the ladder from there towards the top of the pyramid where you hit things like the "Soup Nazi" from Seinfeld.

Is any of this "necessary"? Probably not -- but you miss out on a lot of fun without it.
post #25 of 39
We are secular homeschoolers. We are a Unitarian family. We live in an area overwhelming filled with Christian homeschoolers, fundamentalists churches, and christian evangelism.
We have always included bible verses, hymns, and bible stories in our school lessons. Also verses, prayers, and stories from many world religions. Next year we will be studying the Old Testament stories in conjunction with our geography, history, shelter and farming lessons. We always say grace, before every meal.
Why?
1- I appreciate the beauty and lessons of these old stories which form the spine of so many religions.
2- I believe the sequence, the building of these stories is perfectly fitted to the more academic work we will be doing, and to the development and changes of a 3rd grade child.
3- Because we live in such a Christian-dominated place, and most of the children we play with and families we interact with are Christian, I feel it is my obligation to plant these stories in my child in the context I want him to first hear them. I want him to be comfortable and familiar with the bible and its stories in order to feel that they're not being used as a weapon against him, that they are as much his stories as any one else's. I want him to be able to play with his friends and for their parents to not be worried that he or I will turn their children against them and Jesus.
4- We say grace because I want my children to feel a real and true thankfulness for what they have. Sometimes we sing "Johnny Appleseed" sometimes it is nature oriented, Mother Earthy, sometimes a bible verse, somtimes a blessing from another world religion, sometimes we sing the Preamble to the Constitution. when the two year old picks we sing the Eensy Weensy Spider, the washing machine song, and Hush a Bye Baby, in that order! But I want my kids to be able to say an appropriate grace if they are called to do so at a friend's house. I remember that uncomfortable position as a child, and I want them to be confident and feel in control of themselves no matter where they are.

I do think one interested in being culturally literate should have familiarity with bible stories, as well as the popular stories from other religions and cultures. I don't think they need to be memorized or a huge part of one's education, however even a basic familiarity with the themes and characters will lead to deeper enjoyment and understanding of much literature, art, music. Being able to draw those connections and understanding what was in the heart of the artist will draw us in deeper.
post #26 of 39
We have a number of Illustrated Children's Bibles in our house and sometimes I remember to tell the stories, usually when they coincide with halmark holidays.

I think it's important for cultural literacy, too. Especially in homeschooling. Maybe if we lived somewhere with a diverse homeschooling population, but we don't. Some of the kids in our local support group use ONLY the Bible for literature.

It's hard to find bible stories told in such a way that is free of brainwashing. "Then God told them to..." My girls and I always try to consider the perspective of the author and the publisher. What else are they publishing? So this book comes from a publisher that always publishes scholarly texts and another book is from a publisher that specializes in religious texts. So far our favorites are from Usborne- they have a series of mythology that seems balanced, and story-like as opposed to being "The Word."

Someone here mentioned Socratic questioning and we use a similar approach, even with a 5 yr old it works.
post #27 of 39
Golly Lisa, its like we live in the same place!

Its the absolute word thing that makes me uncomfortable. My SIL gave my older boy a children's bible for his 4th birthday. The very first page was a little rhyme about how the bible is God's word and true, no matter what anyone says, even your Mommy and Daddy. It didn't stay in our house any longer than it took to take out the trash.
We do have children's bibles, books of single bible stories. It is important to me that my kids know the stories, to be comfortable around people of faith, many faiths, and to internalize many of the bible's lessons, but I also want my kids to be free thinkers, able to make up their own minds and follow their own paths confidently. And I don't want anyone telling them not to listen to or trust ME, for crying out loud!


Just my 2 more cents.
post #28 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
i would say most people i have met (christian and non christian) have none to very little biblical knowledge, including simple bible stories. yes, individuals know noah took in two animals of every kind....but that is the extent of their knowledge regarding that story and likewise, other bible stories they are familiar with are equally surfaced. i think most americans have very little biblical knowledge at all.... so to say every "educated person" needs to have a good working knowledge of the bible and its stories excludes A LOT of people....most americans actually.

i mean would someone seriously be culturally illiterate if they had no idea that sampson couldn't cut his hair off or he'd lose his super human strength??

yes.

I guess I have a broader view of what is necessary than you and your friends. But Im pretty sure most people I consider well educated would have a basic knowledge of Samson and Delilah.

I cant even imagine the trouble you'd have with art history if you didnt get the references to the Bible or to christianity.


If you want to eave a hole for your kids to fill in, leave it in religion but do not leave it in literature or Fine Arts. That is a serious mistake.
post #29 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by calandals View Post
yes.

I guess I have a broader view of what is necessary than you and your friends. But Im pretty sure most people I consider well educated would have a basic knowledge of Samson and Delilah.

I cant even imagine the trouble you'd have with art history if you didnt get the references to the Bible or to christianity.


If you want to eave a hole for your kids to fill in, leave it in religion but do not leave it in literature or Fine Arts. That is a serious mistake.

lol - okay. let me clarify because i have obviously offended you & i am truly sorry. i am a christian. my family studies the bible and it is of great importance to who i am, and it is definitely of the utmost importance that i teach it to my children...far beyond basic bible stories. literature has been a big focus in their education as well, & i embrace many stories from all cultures. i trust my children will exceed my expectations in what they will learn in their educational journey.

however, i honestly do not think non-christians are culturally illiterate if they do not have a lot of knowledge about biblical stories. this thread isn't asking if the bible can contribute to a richer education, but the original question insinuated something that i think is not a true statement. i do not think someone that is unfamiliar with samson and delilah or jonah, or ruth or bathsheba equates to being culturally illiterate. that's all. i hope that makes better sense for you.
post #30 of 39
Quote:
this thread isn't asking if the bible can contribute to a richer education, but the original question insinuated something that i think is not a true statement. i do not think someone that is unfamiliar with samson and delilah or jonah, or ruth or bathsheba equates to being culturally illiterate.
Not to pick on you, just thinking "outloud". But I think I have changed my mind. Being culturally literate means knowing about our culture, right?

Maybe we need to see it as a whole continuum.

I would say the phonics of cultural literacy would start with basic american history and government- Jamestown, George Washington, George Bush, the 3 part govenment, the national anthem. And I think here would also be nursery rhyme sort of things-Little Miss Muffet, or Goldilocks and the 3 Bears. For instance, if I were to move to Japan (and like many Americans, my knowledge of non-western civs is terrible). I would be culturally illiterate. I wouldn't know the current leader, or what form of government they have, or anything.

But does being able to sound out words make you literate? Kind of, but it seems to me that that wouldn't be enough for most people. You would want your kids to be able to understand most anything they would pick up-newpapers, best sellers, nutrition labels. Which usually takes a bit more work then basic literacy. And I think pretty quickly here on our continuum of cultural literacy comes in the influences that Christianity has on our culture. I mean, can you talk understand "the founding fathers" or the earliest settlers without it? I also think that Roman and Greek ideas have such a huge influence on Western Civ. that you would want to include them here too. To me this is the level of knowing about Samson and Delilah, but not about his hair

Again, if I were to move to Japan, I could pretty quickly pick up the things in the first category, basic history, a few important names, and the big things that are important to the culture. But would I then be culturally literate? Or would I need to know about the religion(s) and stories that are/have been told over and over? With out this level would I be able to understand why the people want something changed or not changed? Would I be able to undestand why things are the way they are? And is that important to understanding the culture?


In the next step to being "more literate" you would be able to pick up things that have a higher then average reading level--Journals for specific fields and other things with a specific vocabulary to them. A level that you can work your whole life on and still have things to learn. Also a level that most people don't feel is as important to teach, unless there is a reason. Here we get to the more nitty gritty of our culture. Sure most of us have a hazy idea of the more common Bible stories, that we heard as children, or saw a movie make over of (veggie tales, anyone?). I think that this is the level you have to find an interest in for yourself. Back to my Japanese example, once I start to feel a pretty good understanding of the culture, that may be enough for me. On the other hand, a newspaper article, or a discussion with a friend might inspire me to research something further.
post #31 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mallory View Post
Not to pick on you, just thinking "outloud". But I think I have changed my mind. Being culturally literate means knowing about our culture, right?

Maybe we need to see it as a whole continuum.

I would say the phonics of cultural literacy would start with basic american history and government- Jamestown, George Washington, George Bush, the 3 part govenment, the national anthem. And I think here would also be nursery rhyme sort of things-Little Miss Muffet, or Goldilocks and the 3 Bears. For instance, if I were to move to Japan (and like many Americans, my knowledge of non-western civs is terrible). I would be culturally illiterate. I wouldn't know the current leader, or what form of government they have, or anything.

But does being able to sound out words make you literate? Kind of, but it seems to me that that wouldn't be enough for most people. You would want your kids to be able to understand most anything they would pick up-newpapers, best sellers, nutrition labels. Which usually takes a bit more work then basic literacy. And I think pretty quickly here on our continuum of cultural literacy comes in the influences that Christianity has on our culture. I mean, can you talk understand "the founding fathers" or the earliest settlers without it? I also think that Roman and Greek ideas have such a huge influence on Western Civ. that you would want to include them here too. To me this is the level of knowing about Samson and Delilah, but not about his hair

Again, if I were to move to Japan, I could pretty quickly pick up the things in the first category, basic history, a few important names, and the big things that are important to the culture. But would I then be culturally literate? Or would I need to know about the religion(s) and stories that are/have been told over and over? With out this level would I be able to understand why the people want something changed or not changed? Would I be able to undestand why things are the way they are? And is that important to understanding the culture?


In the next step to being "more literate" you would be able to pick up things that have a higher then average reading level--Journals for specific fields and other things with a specific vocabulary to them. A level that you can work your whole life on and still have things to learn. Also a level that most people don't feel is as important to teach, unless there is a reason. Here we get to the more nitty gritty of our culture. Sure most of us have a hazy idea of the more common Bible stories, that we heard as children, or saw a movie make over of (veggie tales, anyone?). I think that this is the level you have to find an interest in for yourself. Back to my Japanese example, once I start to feel a pretty good understanding of the culture, that may be enough for me. On the other hand, a newspaper article, or a discussion with a friend might inspire me to research something further.
your post is long, ha ha, but i agree with the gist of what you are saying. let me first say this, i should have clarified that all of my posts are in reference to americans living in america. i was assuming that we were discussing individuals that have already been inundated in our culture from the time they were born. additionally, i never said people can be clueless about christianity and still be culturally literate - i am simply saying i don't think that cultural literacy requires a lot of knowledge of the many bible stories told in sunday school. if you read my previous posts, i clearly said i think world history and even a study of world religions can be (and is) sufficient for many americans. often, the main focus is on how christianity came to be & usually consist of an overview on prophecy, the life of Christ, and his disciples. imo, an understanding of basic christianity can easily be accomplished without reading about some of the key bible stories i've already mentioned. this does not mean i think the stories are insignificant and not beneficial. quite the contrary. anyway - this is my opinion. but i am happy to see that the bible is as important to you as it is to me.
post #32 of 39
As a child who was brought up with complete ignorance about religion, I will say that I plan on exposing my children to various religions. I know almost nothing when it comes to the most basic Christian/biblical references, and don't even know how to use the terms correctly. Anything I know I have learned from dh. Although he has rejected his religious upbringing, he knows his biblical references! Due to it's predominance in our culture, I think it's important that my kids be made aware of it. But it is also important to me that they are exposed to other religions/spiritual paths as well.
post #33 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by calandals View Post
Its essential to have a good working knowledge of the Bible and its stories if you wish to have a well rounded education. Every educated person absolutely needs to familiarize themselves with the Bible, not for religious reasons but for literary reasons alone.

Shunning the Bible is a huge mistake, which would have major repercussions in any upper level english class.

The more religious homeschoolers who shun greek and roman mythology make a very similar mistake.
I disagree. Honestly, I know more about the bible raised Jewish/atheist than any single Christian I have ever known. I can guarantee maybe 5% new any of the stories besides Adam & Eve. They'll learn them somewhere. But I'm not teaching them. When they're old enough to understand the social and historical relevance of Christianity and it's impact on civilization, I will enter it into our homeschooling. Until then, not gonna happen.

We study a lot of mythology but you encounter biblical stories *everywhere*, so it's not like it's being hidden.
post #34 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittywitty View Post
I disagree. Honestly, I know more about the bible raised Jewish/atheist than any single Christian I have ever known. I can guarantee maybe 5% new any of the stories besides Adam & Eve. They'll learn them somewhere. But I'm not teaching them. When they're old enough to understand the social and historical relevance of Christianity and it's impact on civilization, I will enter it into our homeschooling. Until then, not gonna happen.
We've taken the opposite tack and just treated them like other myths. I didn't want to single Christianity out as being special by omitting it... to me that seemed like giving it more power rather than less. However, we have the luxury of living in a place that we don't feel like a minority in our views, and our social circle is comprised of people of varied beliefs.
post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees View Post
We've taken the opposite tack and just treated them like other myths. I didn't want to single Christianity out as being special by omitting it... to me that seemed like giving it more power rather than less. However, we have the luxury of living in a place that we don't feel like a minority in our views, and our social circle is comprised of people of varied beliefs.
We're in the bible belt, so it's *everywhere*. I was raised Jewish and I still don't incorporate a lot of the stories from there. First of all it just gets me too mad to read to them. I don't find anything good to come from a lot of the stories and at their ages, it takes too much work to explain their beliefs.
post #36 of 39
this has been a facinating discussion to read through.

in our home, we are raising our children with a holistic view of the Divine. that there is a higher power and people connect with it in many, many different ways and call it by many, many different names. one of the ways we do this is by reading material from as many different religious traditions as we can, to include Christianity.

for us it's not about cultural literacy. i couldn't give a flip about that. hence why my kids have no idea what a webkin is or who hannah montana is. it's about cultivating a sense of spirituality of their very own choosing. and about cultivating a deep respect for how others choose to connect with the Divine. honestly, i feel that is the key to bringing humanity closer to peace, so i choose to start with my own household as one small step.

we also take a look at religious mythology in the context of our history/literature studies as well b/c it's just well-rounded to do so IMHO.
post #37 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees View Post
We've taken the opposite tack and just treated them like other myths. I didn't want to single Christianity out as being special by omitting it... to me that seemed like giving it more power rather than less. However, we have the luxury of living in a place that we don't feel like a minority in our views, and our social circle is comprised of people of varied beliefs.
We haven't started homeschooling yet cause she is too little. This is pretty similar to the track that I plan to follow. Our religious books, philosophy books and our myth books are all pushed together. I plan to teach bible stories right along side the Norse myths and Wicca and The Tao of Pooh.

I have a masters in English literature. I absolutely believe that knowing the biblical stories is necessary for the specific brand of cultural literacy I want my kids to have.
post #38 of 39
I homeschool secularly and teach literature at a university. I think so many students don't get basic references. For example, we were studying Slaughterhouse-Five by Vonnegut and he talks about Lot's wife looking back and how it is so human to look back. He says therefor that S5 is being written by a pillar of salt. No one got the reference. I pointed them to biblegateway.com to look up references like that but some wouldn't have even known it was a bible story if I hadn't told them that. I do plan for my kids to be familiar with the bible as literature because like Shakespeare, it's influence and references are predominant in everyday life.
post #39 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
i think most americans have very little biblical knowledge at all.... so to say every "educated person" needs to have a good working knowledge of the bible and its stories excludes A LOT of people....most americans actually.
lol! Most Americans are under-educated and clueless.
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