Workshop #3 - Baby’s Early Years; Circumcision - Page 3

[DocsNemesis]

Originally Posted by Jenivere

It was not till after the fact that my mom told me my dad and brother's were not circumcised.

I have to say-I have heard this so many times!!! From both men and women! I think its funny since so many men's main reason for wanting to circ is so they *look like daddy.* And then they find out that their own fathers werent and they never even noticed! I know my ds didnt notice that his father was circ'd until I told him (he noticed the neighbors son looked different down there and asked me why, so I told him) either.

[silverspook]

First off, let me say I grew up in Texas. Not exactly the most "progressive" part of the US...especially when it comes to circumcision!

I never gave circ much thought until we found out we were having a boy.

It was never discussed in my family...until we were having a boy, that is. Then all of a sudden everyone had an opinion about it!

As far as I know, DS is the only intact male from both sides of my and DH's families from our grandfathers down! That at least FOUR generations of mutilation!!! (I'm talking semi-immediate families here: my DS's grandparents, great-grands, uncles, great-uncles, & cousins, not distant-extended-type family like your mother's cousin's brother-in-law, etc. )

I guess my first "research" into circ was in Peggy's book Having a Baby Naturally. I read the chapter on circ with my DH and we decided right then and there that was not something we wanted for our precious unborn son. We received staunch criticism/horror/disgust from family when they asked if he would be circ'd and we replied "No". My mom told me that she "had 'been with both' and believe me, he should be circ'd" She also told me that if my sister and I had been boys, we would have been circ'd. That statement opened my eyes to the world of 'intactivism' because it made me realize that my son wasn't the only one who mattered. If no one would have stood up and protected ME from my parent's ignorance, who would stand up and protect other babies from theirs?!

Other family members had little jewels of advice for us too. My aunt (whose sons were both preemies and circ'd said, very sarcastically/snarky, "Well that will be easy to keep clean". My grandmother said "He has to be circ'd! Otherwise he won't be able to pee or um...perform." Such ignorance... After DS was a few weeks old, they stopped bringing it up. It's kind of the elephant in the room now (pun intended ).

The more I learned about circ, the more of an intactivist I became. I have pro-bf/anti-circ bumper stickers on my car, and I try to be outspoken, especially to pregnant moms. Also young adults (like my college-age sister) and teens who are impressionable and open minded, yk?

My latest act of intactivism was yesterday at our LLL meeting where there were several prego new-comers. I introduced myself as Mandy, the intactilactivist. That got a 45 minute discussion going about circ! The pregnant moms said they hadn't even thought about circ, and were very interested in learning about circ, and then later as I was changing DS's diaper, they circled around and asked about intact-ness and intact care. I feel like I really planted a seed! I was so :!!!

[Om Girl]

We're expecting #2 and anticipating a boy this time. I need some resources from your mamas about not circ'ing. I need supplementary materials for DH. He's going to read the current issue of Mothering, but I need some additional sources for him to look at.
Any help would be appreciated.
Please PM me with references.
Thanks mamas!

[Ms. Mom]

Originally Posted by Om Girl

We're expecting #2 and anticipating a boy this time. I need some resources from your mamas about not circ'ing. I need supplementary materials for DH. He's going to read the current issue of Mothering, but I need some additional sources for him to look at.
Any help would be appreciated.
Please PM me with references.
Thanks mamas!

Check out The Case Against Circumcision forum. You can post asking for references and check out the forum stickies. The regular posters in the forum have a TON of current information and will be happy to guide you.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by Om Girl

We're expecting #2 and anticipating a boy this time. I need some resources from your mamas about not circ'ing. I need supplementary materials for DH. He's going to read the current issue of Mothering, but I need some additional sources for him to look at.
Any help would be appreciated.
Please PM me with references.
Thanks mamas!

Yes please come visit us in the CAC forum. It might help to know what concerns your DH might have. It would allow us to provide information most compelling to him.

[glongley]

Someone asked for info on videos of circumcision...

Warning: videos of circumcision can be very disturbing, so viewer discretion is advised. (However, if you are a parent considering circumcising a son, you owe it to him to know how it's done. If you think it'll be too hard to watch, maybe it's not something you'd want your child to actually experience.)

Here is a link to a thread with a video link, a transcription of the video, and discussion, on the Case Against Circumcision forum.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=481025

Here is a link to the Penn and Teller show on circumcision. Raunchy and irreverent - with more than a few four letter words - but full of thought-provoking information, it includes segments of the procedure and much more. Guys seem to really get it with this video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...91532653693892

[Night_Nurse]

Originally Posted by poiyt

There have been a lot of talk about videos - I did a search on google videos and you tube and Im either getting female circumcision, or the video has been removed due to content. Can anyone give me a link? I think seeing a video would change a lot of people's minds.

Warning - link has graphic photos (the video download link is at the bottom of the page:

http://intact.ca/vidintro.htm

[nerdymom]

I never gave much thought to male circ before I met my husband. I knew what it was, but I had never seen an intact man, and never really gave it much thought. I had studied FGM (female genital mutilation), which includes female circ, in a Human Rights class in college. The practice disturbed me, and I did a lot of research on the subject and ended up making it my term paper topic. However for some reason I never made the connection between FGM and male circ.

When I met my husband (born and raised in the Netherlands), I realized what an amazing thing a foreskin is! Personally, I find the uncircumcised penis far more attractive, not to mention more, ahem, pleasurable. From then on I assumed that if we had any male children they would remain intact. It was not until I found out I was pregnant and began doing research that I learned all of the other reasons behind not circ’ing and when I saw the procedure actually being performed on a newborn, well, that’s when I became an intactavist.

Also, let me just say, I agree with pp who said that waiting until a friend who is TTC is pregnant and then unloading such a highly emotional subject upon her may not be the kindest thing. She may be more easy to sway, but I think that approach come dangerously close to preying upon her precarious emotional state, which is not a very kind or loving thing to do. Do address the subject now, and later. But please don’t spring it upon someone you already know and have the opportunity to discuss it with pre-pregnancy.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by nerdymom

Also, let me just say, I agree with pp who said that waiting until a friend who is TTC is pregnant and then unloading such a highly emotional subject upon her may not be the kindest thing. She may be more easy to sway, but I think that approach come dangerously close to preying upon her precarious emotional state, which is not a very kind or loving thing to do. Do address the subject now, and later. But please don’t spring it upon someone you already know and have the opportunity to discuss it with pre-pregnancy.

While I agree that it's always better to discuss these issues before someone is pregnant, it's a little puzzling to me to assert that bringing up circumcision DURING pregnancy is victimizing a woman. Most women I know are totally capable of thinking intelligently and researching issues during pregnancy even if there are times that are hormonal. To me, the issue is too important not to bring up -- better to risk upsetting a woman than to have her agree to cut off the most sensitive part of her son's penis at the most vulnerable time of his life!

If you read the "mothers who circed and regretted it" thread in CAC, which is thousands of posts long, you'll see that the common theme is this: "if only someone -- anyone -- had told me during pregnancy what circumcision is and that I didn't have to do it."

Ignorance is not bliss. Circumcision harms not only baby boys but also their bond with their mothers. Holding back from speaking out against circumcision during a friend's pregnancy for fear of upsetting her delicate emotional balance is not doing anyone any favors.

[poiyt]

Originally Posted by Night_Nurse

Warning - link has graphic photos (the video download link is at the bottom of the page:

http://intact.ca/vidintro.htm

I cried, and then I puked and now Im little angry

[Sweetmilo]

I didn't circumcise my baby boy, and my co-workers wouldn't let me hear the end of it. He'll have all kinds of bladder infections, and problems and he'll just end up having to have it done later on in life.
I finally pointed out to one co-worker that out of her 10 grandkids (7 were boys) 4 of them had problems with their circ and had to have it done again. She finally left me alone.

My husband at first was we HAVE to circ!! by the time the baby came out, he was like, oh my god I can't believe that we do that to baby boys (we being of course our society as a whole)

[nerdymom]

Originally Posted by Quirky

While I agree that it's always better to discuss these issues before someone is pregnant, it's a little puzzling to me to assert that bringing up circumcision DURING pregnancy is victimizing a woman. Most women I know are totally capable of thinking intelligently and researching issues during pregnancy even if there are times that are hormonal. To me, the issue is too important not to bring up -- better to risk upsetting a woman than to have her agree to cut off the most sensitive part of her son's penis at the most vulnerable time of his life!

If you read the "mothers who circed and regretted it" thread in CAC, which is thousands of posts long, you'll see that the common theme is this: "if only someone -- anyone -- had told me during pregnancy what circumcision is and that I didn't have to do it."

Ignorance is not bliss. Circumcision harms not only baby boys but also their bond with their mothers. Holding back from speaking out against circumcision during a friend's pregnancy for fear of upsetting her delicate emotional balance is not doing anyone any favors.

I didn't mean to say that if a pregnant woman is plannignto circ, you shouldn't bring it up with her! What I was trying to say was that if you know someone TTC who is planning to circ, bring it up immediately. For me atleast, this subject is so upsetting that I feel like crying right now (no kidding), and I would hate for one of my friends to wait until I was expecting to unleash something of this magnitude on me. I would want to know sooner.

I think this is an important issue that friends should talk to friends about. I was just responding to a pp who said she was going to wait until her friends concieved before talking to them about circ.

I hope that clears things up.

[Birdie B.]

I don't know if we're having a boy, but if we do, he will definitely not be cut. I never thought about it much until becoming pregnant, and I have only seen one intact penis in my life, but it is an issue my husband feels very strongly about. It seems cruel to cut such sensitive skin, without any real reason. I would never think to do it to a daughter; why do it to a son? I can't imagine that he'll spend much time comparing his to his dad's, how often does that really happen?

My husband is circumsised, but his parents regretted it immediately when they saw how sad he was afterwards, and didn't do it to his younger brother. My husband wants to leave our son/s intact, and I totally agree

As for people who have family and/or friends weighing in on the decision, I don't really understand that. How is it any of their business? I cannot imagine anyone asking me if my son was circ'd - family or otherwise. That's just really foreign to me - my family would NEVER ask me such a question. I don't really care what they would say about it - I have no idea if my dad or brothers are circ'd, it's just not something that comes up in conversation.

[mean_jeannie]

Originally Posted by race_kelly

I does seem though that circ'd men do seem to have a harder time accepting or supporting having intact sons. I've heard the comment about wanting the son to look like him, not be laughed at in the locker room, not have a woman run screaming from the room, etc. But I wonder if there isn't a bit of a feeling that if they keep their son intact, then they are saying that there is something wrong with their penis? So sometimes I think it can be a very delicate situation when approaching a man about keeping their son intact.

It still very much is in my house. Dh is extremely defensive and bigoted - for lack of a better word - about it, and said his sons wouldn't have "anteater" or "elephant trunk" penises. He refuses to learn anything about the issue and I believe it's because it would make him feel badly about himself. His mother SAVED HIS FORESKIN and PUT IT IN HIS BABYBOOK!!!!! I know that last statement was pretty random, but I just remembered that I have my husband's foreskin in a book in my house.

I am so lost as to how to help this situation. I don't know that it needs to be helped necessarily right now, but if I ever get pregnant with another boy . . .

Originally Posted by suprgrl

It took a while for my DH to be able to admit this, but he has a hard time accepting that his body is messed up and sub-par. This is why he is oppossed to restoring. That and he is afraid that restoring would not make a difference in our sex life and he would feel rejected.

I am never bringing up restoration with my dh - not as things stand in my household right now. When I first learned the truth about circumcision, I suddenly felt like I was repulsed by dh. I hated that fact, but it was true. It wasn't long before I got over that, I do love and accept my husband, it was just that I was - shocked, I guess. In fact, I started a thread about it a long time ago in CAC, where I got either support or reamed out.

There is a video out there that compares how an intact penis works during sex as compared to a circ'd penis. It is compelling video. Dh and I have zero issues in the bedroom. I have been with intact men and can't really recall much of a difference. But that was a loooong time ago!

[Pumpkin_Pie]

I just watched the Penn and Teller video for the first time, and I think I want a bumper sticker or T-Shirt, or heck, even a billboard with the quote from the video: "Once you see an intact newborn penis, every other circ'd penis just looks wrong". I am not sure if that is the exact wording, but it is absolutely, positively true.

I have a son, and I was so passionate about not circ'ing him. I gave birth to him after a traumatic delivery, and as he was whisked away to be resuscitated the first thing I could think to say was "DON'T CIRCUMCISE HIM!!!!". I wasn't worried about any other possible thing, but that was weighing so heavily on my mind that I screamed it at the doctors and nurses. I had no idea that they didn't do it right there in the delivery room anyway, so they all had a little giggle at me, but I think I made my point.

I am so happy that I know quite a few mamas of baby boys in my area who all get together regularly, and none of them are circ'd. I went to a play group once since DS was born and a mama was changing a baby boy's diaper and he was circ'd. I didn't realize just how emotional the issue had become for me until that moment. I literally wanted to vomit when I saw his poor, scarred, mutilated penis. I had to turn away and I did start to tear up. I just held my boy tight and take comfort in knowing that I would not let his body be cut.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

Originally Posted by nerdymom

I didn't mean to say that if a pregnant woman is plannignto circ, you shouldn't bring it up with her! What I was trying to say was that if you know someone TTC who is planning to circ, bring it up immediately. For me atleast, this subject is so upsetting that I feel like crying right now (no kidding), and I would hate for one of my friends to wait until I was expecting to unleash something of this magnitude on me. I would want to know sooner.

I think this is an important issue that friends should talk to friends about. I was just responding to a pp who said she was going to wait until her friends concieved before talking to them about circ.

I hope that clears things up.

I can see see waiting to talk to someone about it if they are having issues TTC. It's kind of is like rubbing salt in the wounds to talk to them about what they should do when they FINALLY get pregnant. I've seem women just about lose it talking about actually having the baby when they are so desperately concentrating on just getting pregnant.

[triscuitsmom]

I honestly don't know where my thoughts on circ came from. My brothers were both circed, as was my Dad... and yet, I never even considered it as something I would do. I never really heard anything about circing with the exception of a story about one of my uncles. He had to have it redone at age six, and my grandmother recalled to me the memory of him sleeping with his arms way above his head for fear anything would come near the area and cause him anymore of the "worst pain in the world" (his words at six) Even as she told me the story she said it in a very, too bad he went through that, but of course it was necessary... sort of way

When I was with my ex and pregnant for the first time I asked him what he thought about circ and he didn't even know what it was... he was circed but didn't know there was such a thing as a foreskin or that his penis hadn't always been that way... he was 20 years old! I told him I wouldn't do it, he didn't really care either way. I ended up miscarrying that baby however.

After we broke up I got pregnant with my DS. I didn't want to know what gender the baby was. I had the care of midwives and it was just never even really brought up past the initial question on the intake form. They did have plenty of anti-circ literature in the office though.

My DP is intact. He was so happy when we talked about it and I told him T was also intact. I'm pregnant again, due in February and this baby will absolutely be intact regardless of gender

[Blu Razzberri]

I still have a hard time reading about circumcision.

Originally Posted by poiyt

...I grew up thinking that there was no downside to circumcizing...

For me it was very much the opposite. I was convinced that being intact was a risk!! Everyone I knew was circumcised, there had to be a good reason for that! (Right...?) I was given the standard 'reasons' why it was important to circumcise (by the circumcising doctor, go figure ...I feel like a complete idiot for that!). The way I describe it, it was like pressure sales....right down to the close: "it'll cost you more if you wait until after you leave the hospital, because you'll have to take him to a specialist".

I was so broke then, I couldn't afford a candy bar from the vending machine. I was crying my eyes out after the doctor left because I couldn't afford to circumcise, and I thought I was putting my son at risk because of that.

Equally misinformed, my grandmother paid for it.

I feel like I'm making excuses when I explain why I circumcised my first son. I feel ashamed, because I feel like there was no excuse to have missed out on vital anti-circ information; or even to have missed the basic logic of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. I know I made the best decision with the information I had at the time, but it doesn't stop me from feeling horrible.

My second boy is now three weeks old and almost every time he cries I think of my first son being circumcised. I have horrible flashbacks. Sometimes it's remembering holding him before they took him and feeling a conflict between my head ("knowing" circ was 'right') and heart (feeling it was wrong). Sometimes it's remembering his little body heaving from sobbing when they wheeled him back to me. Or worse still; remembering the relief I felt that it was over and we could move on as I tended to his fresh wound. It makes me incredibly sad, and sick to my stomach. I consented to let them torture a little human who I was supposed to protect from harm. I can't help but feeling that I should serve some sort of punishment.

Overall, it's been so horrible for me having learned the truth about circumcision, because ignorance was bliss - for me. It was easier to be ignorant about what I put my baby through. However, without the knowledge that I acquired on the subject, I wouldn't have had the proper tools to protect my next son; who is (thankfully) intact. I am now intensely anti-circ.

MDC has been a launch pad for learning about this, and so many other things. While I'm so grateful to have this site as a parenting tool in my life now; I can't tell you how deeply sorry I am that I didn't find it sooner!!

[Blu Razzberri]

I wanted to post my story before reading the rest of the thread. Now...

Originally Posted by Quirky

...it's always better to discuss these issues before someone is pregnant, it's a little puzzling to me to assert that bringing up circumcision DURING pregnancy is victimizing a woman...

I agree with everything you said in your post "Quirky"; and I want to add that pregnancy is the time when she'll be more receptive to the information (IMO) because the baby is more 'real' now. It's much easier to dismiss information on a hypothetical baby.

However, I have a couple friends with whom I've discussed circumcision and they don't have kids, or plans for kids yet; and I doubt they'll even consider circ now. And when the time comes that they do have them, if they even THINK about circ'ing their boy, they're going to get a harsh refresher course from yours truly.

[janasmama]

Hello!

I have one baby boy, he's 18 months and intact. During my first pg I had found out what we were having, a girl, but I didn't believe it....I really thought we would have a boy so I wasn't very sure about circ'ing. I'm not sure if I would have accepted much information about circumcision at that point.

Then of course once having my baby I was much more protective over the things that would happen to he/she so when I did have a boy I just knew I wouldn't do it.

I think getting circumcision info during pg is a must for all mothers just b/c mistakes are made even at gender u/s. I wouldn't want to be prepared for a girl and then be at the hospital and get a boy surprise then have to make an uninformed decision.