What would you say....

[mama*pisces]

if a neighbor that you just started hanging out with told you that she spanks her 11 month old, "20 times a day"?!?!?

We have a playground right behind our townhouse, and of course I am out there with 2 yo ds at least once a day, so I've gotten to talking with a few of the moms around here, and dh has also become friends with this one particular dad. Two nights ago we are hanging out with them and another couple from a few doors down, parents of a 2 and a half year old and a 3 month old. This mama tells me, proudly even, that she lets her infant CIO at night, shuts the door to her room, and turns her fan on to block out her cries. I thought my heart would break. There was a short pause when she said it, she looked at me, and feeling at a total loss for words, I said: "I can't do that." and she said: "I can!" and then the conversation changed to something else(I have also seen her spank her two year old for running too close to the street....sad, but to me, possibly forgivable in this instance because it was a situation where the daughter could have really been hurt).

I came home and vented to dh, and he said: "Oh, you're judging people and you think that your way is the only way, and you shouldn't do that. Let people live their lives." I really really really try not to judge. I believe in my heart that each soul has to walk it's own path. But uggghhhh, I just can't wrap my head around letting a tiny helpless baby cry herself to sleep for however long it takes every night. Not to mention that when she told me this, she was across the street from her house where her baby was sleeping, with no monitor. Meanwhile we are also across the street from our house, with our monitor for my two year old sitting on top of our neighbor's car, with me checking it every 20 minutes to make sure it hadn't stopped working or something. (lol) If anyone should have been nonchalant, you would think it would have been me, not someone with a newborn.

Then tonight, we are hanging out with them again(why, i'm not sure, since I left our last hanging out session pretty bothered), the other mom, who has only an 11 month old, tells me that she "pops him hard" at least 20 times a day!! And me, not knowing what to say again, said: "But he's so little..." and she said, yeah, and if he doesn't learn now, he's going to be hell when he's two."

WTH is wrong with people? I am just so sad, disillusioned, and angry right now. I know that I can't "save the world", though I would really really like to, and that there are times when I really do have to let people just live their own lives and go on with my own. But my heart breaks for these babies. I can't just shrug it off and be ok with it. Part of me wants to cut all ties with them(which would be kinda uncomfortable at the moment since we live very close to eachother and see eachother every day, and now dh is starting to be friends with them too), but another part of me wants to try to educate them...but how do I do that without offending? What would you say?

I'm thinking....I think it might be better to do this as we're moving out of here(so that dh might not catch wind of it and kill me), but I have two copies of "Plain talk about spanking", which were sent to me by the people from Nospank.net(I think that's the website), and I can think of no two better people to give those to right now. And if they don't talk to me again, hey, no big loss on my part. But at least it would create an oppurtunity for them to open their eyes a little.

I wish I didn't care so much.

[mama*pisces]

I can't believe that there have been 26 views to this thread and nobody has any thoughts on this. Yeesh. I'm starting to feel really not welcome in this forum.

[schellie]

I was in a similar situation. So I just have been showing him how he should act towards his son. The DS is 4, and they dont communicate AT ALL in times when their is a squabble. I am just trying to show him better ways by example. I also have thought of sending/giving him a book to read.

[New_Natural_Mom]

Originally Posted by mama*pisces

I can't believe that there have been 26 views to this thread and nobody has any thoughts on this. Yeesh. I'm starting to feel really not welcome in this forum.

Sorry, no advice just .

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by mama*pisces

I can't believe that there have been 26 views to this thread and nobody has any thoughts on this. Yeesh. I'm starting to feel really not welcome in this forum.

that's a bit of an overreaction I think. Sometimes there's just nothing to say. Plus your subject line doesn't tell anything about your issue. So 26 people could have opened it to figure out what your question was. And then realized they didn't know the answer.

[Ruthla]

Ok, I just somehow clicked something and completely lost this page and my half-typed up response- I guess that was another view without comment? Ugh.

I don't know if you really CAN say anything- I mean, how would you feel if the tables were turned, and they sent you information about spanking and CIO and implied that you're neglecting your children for "not showing them who's boss"? I just really doubt they'd pay attention to anything you sent them.

OTOH, maybe they honestly don't know how else to discipline children and a pamphlet like this could be an eye-opener. Or maybe they wouldn't even consider the information inside and all the pamphlets would do is ruin your relationship with these women. Then again, that may not be such a loss anyway. I doubt I could be friends with people who treated their children this way, at least not while their children were still little and still being subjected to this kind of treatment. It's not quite the same when the kids are all preteens and teens- nobody really asks whether or not anybody was breastfed, what sleeping arrangements used to be, etc.

[mama*pisces]

Originally Posted by D_McG

that's a bit of an overreaction I think. Sometimes there's just nothing to say. Plus your subject line doesn't tell anything about your issue. So 26 people could have opened it to figure out what your question was. And then realized they didn't know the answer.

Well, it's just that this is the third time I have posted something in here and have gotten little to no response(at first).

[mama*pisces]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Ok, I just somehow clicked something and completely lost this page and my half-typed up response- I guess that was another view without comment? Ugh.

I don't know if you really CAN say anything- I mean, how would you feel if the tables were turned, and they sent you information about spanking and CIO and implied that you're neglecting your children for "not showing them who's boss"? I just really doubt they'd pay attention to anything you sent them.

OTOH, maybe they honestly don't know how else to discipline children and a pamphlet like this could be an eye-opener. Or maybe they wouldn't even consider the information inside and all the pamphlets would do is ruin your relationship with these women. Then again, that may not be such a loss anyway. I doubt I could be friends with people who treated their children this way, at least not while their children were still little and still being subjected to this kind of treatment. It's not quite the same when the kids are all preteens and teens- nobody really asks whether or not anybody was breastfed, what sleeping arrangements used to be, etc.

Thanks Ruthla. I guess if the tables were turned I wouldn't appreciate it very much. And it doesn't seem to me like their minds are the least bit open to trying other alternatives. They definitely don't have an "I hate doing it, but I just don't know what else to do" kind of attitude. I guess my only choice is to limit my time with them so I don't end up saying something "out of place".

[WinterStar]

I didn't reply because I couldn't think of anything useful to say. I'm sure I'm not the only one. That's not personal, just being a bit useless I guess!

It's very, very hard when you live so close to people who are behaving like that. My instinct is to just steer well clear, I wouldn't want my child mixing with children who are treated so harshly, especially at such a young age.

It's not always possible I know, so the second best is to stay very close to your child and try to minimise any negative influences.

As for saving the world, my best hope for that is that I raise my children better than I was raised, and they raise their children even better again.....and step by step the world improves.

Sadly it's very hard to comment on other peoples' parenting choices, even when you have really strong connections with them it has to be handled very delicately. I'm no good at it at all, my bestfriend and I have stopped talking about our parenting choices, even though we are not SO far apart. Modelling what *you* do does help, they do see it, and do think about it, even if it doesn't always appear that they do.

But yes, a book in their postboxes on your leaving day, why not?!

[SkyMomma]

As I was reading your post my heart was breaking too... I don't really have an answer. I'm still figuring out the no-judgement thing. I'm not sure that not being judgemental is always the right thing...too many cases of domestic violence, sexual abuse, etc., that perpetuated because neighbors didn't want to get involved or felt that it was none of their business. OTOH, I have been on the receiving end of lots of negative judgements & little comments from family & strangers about my parenting choices. In particular, extended breastfeeding (until 3 1/2), family bed (until 3), homeschooling, no TV & long hair on a boy, seem to trigger people's shocked responses. Sometimes this evolves into an opportunity for education, when I'm asked how or why, but that's pretty unusual. Having been on the receiving end of this a bit, I do feel like there is too much mama guilt & pressure out there (although I have to say--and this may anger other mamas out there--that I look forward to the day when being seen giving your baby a bottle in public is considered shameful & nursing in public gets the cute little coos & smiles from passerbys. I look forward to the day when baby blankets are covered with pictures of breasts & not bottles).

I don't really know how I would respond in your situation. I think that letting other moms know that you do things differently, that there is another way, is important. CIO & spanking are still so much a part of american cultural norms, that lots of moms aren't regularly exposed to another way of parenting. A few months ago, I overheard a yoga student of mine talking to another about their young babies (under 6 months). The first was saying how she left her infant with her mother for a weekend, the second responded "I know I really need to start seperating from my baby, but I just can't..." The first began to encourage her to leave the baby overnight, with lots of "they need to learn to be independant", etc. I gently inserted myself in the conversation & just pointed out to the second mom that there was nothing wrong with her needing to be with her baby, & that she didn't need to push that if she felt comfortable with how things were.

I think there is a ton of societal pressure to push independance (CIO) & authoritarian discipline, for "good of the children". I think any small thing we do to show that there are other ways to parent is a good thing. If you feel invested in conversation with your neighbors, I might ask them why they do things the way they do. Perhaps then explain why you do things differently. Or just give them the book. Whatever you feel comfortable with. Personally, I would find myself avoiding being around them--it would just feel too upsetting. Maybe take some solace in knowing that by being in the nighborhood you're showing a different path, perhaps some of it will seep in.

[Bromache]

I don't really have anything useful to say, but I know how it feels to not have responses, too, so I'm responding!

That is really awful, and it must be so hard to be around them. CIO, while to me a horrible thing, is not quite as bad as the 20 "pops" a day to an eleven month old. Yikes. Not sure if I could be around these people, but it's so hard when you're going to keep seeing them at the playground and such to not be friendly. On the other hand, it's also soooo difficult not to judge when we hear about these things that are, at least to us, abusive.

I'm in a similar, though not so extreme, situation right now and I don't know how to handle it either. Our closest friends will slap their 20 mo's hands and they yell at her a LOT, netiher of which I agree with at all. (Not to mention we can see that it already has no effect on her anyway.) And my other friend just started CIO with her 8 mo to get him to sleep at night. Like you, I say "I couldn't do that", but I'm not really sure what more I can say or do without causing problems. However, if the first parents get even worse with their "punishments", I think we'll have to not be friends with them anymore. It stinks because we're a military family and very far away from our families and old friends, and these are our only friends here, but I don't want my son exposed to violence...

Anyway, I guess all I can say is what I tell myself -- if it bothers you too much and you think it may be harming YOUR child to be around these people, you'll just have to go your separate ways. As for educating them to other methods and ways, I don't know how helpful that would be. It sure sounds like the CIO mom believed she was doing the right thing, and that's hard to argue against. Personally, I will keep making tiny comments here and there and try to model my own way of parenting when I'm around them and hope some of it rubs off.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

[OGirlieMama]

I actually would not worry about offending a person who told me they spank their 11 month old at all, let alone "hard and often." I would (in the most polite, educational tone I could manage) tell them why spanking is wrong, and if they were pissed-off at me, I'd probably ask if they were going to spank me, too.

[jjawm]

One time a waitress was telling me how she spanks her young child. I told her that I found that spanking was definatlely not effective (my dd has never been spanked, but my stepsons were by their father) and made them so angry, and that with our daughter we used babygates instead (keeping her out of the kitchen when she was not being safe).

[LionessMom]

i would have looked at her with a horrified look on my face and said. "oh my god, you ACTUALLY HIT your BABY!?!". or "oh my god, you actually let her CRY?!? you know they say you aren't supposed to do that anymore, it's bad for them."

the shocked and horrified look is the key part. that might make them think that it is not normal and maybe even mean. jmho

[llamalluv]

I think the answer to your question "What is wrong with people?" is just that they don't know any better. If I had started having children 10 years ago, I would have spanked and not had a second thought. Or even just 5 years ago. But I've had enough time to watch other people and learn from their experiences and examples (both positive and negative) and to really mature as a person.

My logic used to be that I was spanked and turned out okay. But looking at my two middle sisters, I realize that I turned out well IN SPITE of my upbringing, not because of it.

[Tuesday]

I agree with OGirlieMama regarding the spanking of an 11 month old. Wow. I'd say my opinion quite clearly to this person.

I've actually not encountered any people who openly talk about spanking their kids. If I did, in a play area such as yours, I'd probably say something - mentioning other solutions, asking why they spanked, etc etc etc. If it made me feel uncomfortable, I'd avoid these people. I can't imagine getting much enjoyment hanging with a mom who likes to wallop her 11 month old child! (And neither can you! )

In terms of feeling like, "what is wrong with people?" . This sort of emotion can be experienced all the time - I mean the world is filled with a lot of negative things and people. Sometimes I just try to turn it around and try to educate and help the person see a more positive solution and just really hope that they get some sort of enlightenment to help them. Some parents come from an entirely different background with different experiences so unless they see someone modelling different solutions and providing positive solutions, they will continue with the spanking.

[claddaghmom]

CIO stories always get to my heart. I hate the method, especially when presented by a mom in the way you mention. I probably would have said something really snarky and mean without thinking.

I'm not so sure about the spanking comment though. What exactly does she mean by "pop him hard?" I've seen parents smack/spank their kids and cracked a smile over how wimpy it is. Yet the parents think they are being hard on the kid. Also, I've seen some kids who get a hard spanking and then run off laughing, or stand there and antagonize their parents. (Particularly recall a 6yo neighbor kid who got a full out spanking in public and stood there laughing "haha, that didn't hurt! Try again!" Needless to say, I felt a bit of sympathy for the dad and not the kid.)

[ssh]

The only time I've been around a parent (a relative of mine that we were visiting) who was going to CIO, I said "you know what that does don't you? When she cries like that it floods her little system with cortisol and makes her more sensitive to stress. So when she's an adult she's more likely to get stress related diseases and depression". The father had been laying with his DD for about an hour trying to get her to nap, and had just left the room. He replied that she needs a nap. And told him that I never tried to make my DD sleep and she sleeps fine now. He had seen how easily my 2.5 year old DD went to sleep each night around 10. The father went and got his DD out of bed. The LO was about 15 months old and getting teeth in at the time.

[Roar]

I think the reason why you got little response initially is because of course there is nothing you can do about this and it probably isn't particularly productive to wag your finger about how other people you have no control over choose to behave.

My suggestion would be to focus your energies on things you can control and on people you can influence. If you feel you have influence then by all means feel free to proselytize about gentle discipline, but it sounds like you don't think it would make a difference.

If my child spent a lot of time fussing over how other kids weren't behaving well, I'd tell him that he should instead focus on his own behavior and taking responsibility for himself. The same applies here. (the only exception would be if there is something that is abusive in which case you have the moral obligation to report it).

[Kelly Jene]

I will admit that until the last 4 years I had no idea about GD. I was raised being spanked and told that CIO and spanking is just how you do things. Maybe you can start some conversations about GD or even invite them to come to this site. It's all in the education. These women love their kids and think they are doing the best for them ... that they know of. Maybe if you introduce new thoughts they will start to consider new ways of parenting.