What do you do when you need instant obedience?

[pookel]

I know I've read here often enough that "obedience" shouldn't be expected of children, that their own desires and choices should be respected, that they need gentle guidance rather than firm rules. Etc.

But here's the thing I was just thinking about. If, for instance, I yell at my husband, "Quick! Grab that before it falls off the table!" he'll do it in a heartbeat. As adults, we know that certain types of "orders" need to be followed immediately, without question, even if they come from strangers. Orders like "Duck!" or "Get out of the way!" or "Help!" I don't think anyone here would be offended at being asked to respond instantly to that kind of demand.

So it seems wrong to me to say that I shouldn't be teaching my child to respond in the same way. If he is pushing something on the table and I see that it's about to cause a glass to fall off and break, I should be able to yell "Stop! You're going to knock that glass off!" and expect him to listen to me.

Now, he doesn't always listen to me, because he's 3. But I think it's reasonable in this kind of circumstance to remind him strongly that he HAS to listen to me when I tell him to do something. Thoughts?

[BellinghamCrunchie]

DD is 3.5 and we have yet to run into a situation where immediate obedience was required, honestly. We did do a lot of baby-proofing, though.

I don't think there is any way you can teach a child to immediately obey with 100% certainty. You can't ever rely on the child obeying in a dangerous situation no matter how well or what techniques you used to teach them. I think for a child, you or another adult have to be the one to respond immediately to dangerous situations, calling out a warning as you run over and telling them what they need to do and hoping the urgency in your voice doesn't cause them to freeze but instead causes them to react. Can't count on it, though.

[claddaghmom]

I just went through this issue with my 3yo sister. We were in a very crowded riverfront parade for the 4th when I needed her to hop out of the stroller and climb onto the shuttle bus.

It was the kind of crowd where pausing will just sweep you away in an instant, and she was sitting in her stroller, arms crossed, asking "But, why? Why do I need to get out?"

Exasperating.

[Kelly Jene]

I don't know how it started, but I can just give my boys a look and they will react instantly. One time, my son reacted to a situation quickly and I asked him how he knew I needed him to do so, and he said "I saw the look on your face, I knew you needed me to." It was great. He said it's not an angry look, so it just works for us.

[maliceinwonderland]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

I just went through this issue with my 3yo sister. We were in a very crowded riverfront parade for the 4th when I needed her to hop out of the stroller and climb onto the shuttle bus.

It was the kind of crowd where pausing will just sweep you away in an instant, and she was sitting in her stroller, arms crossed, asking "But, why? Why do I need to get out?"

Exasperating.

Apparently I have a specific tone, and when dd hears it she just knows. I would imagine this works because I don't generally raise my voice much, so when I do it means serious business.

I did have a problem when her father fed her a bunch of crap about how she had the right to question anything anyone (ie: me) ever told her to do (which in theory I get what he was saying, he just went about it sooo wrong, and I'd already had several conversations with her about what I imagine he was trying to get across) so it basically just led to the kind of situation I quoted above. :

[Vancouver Mommy]

The only time I've really needed an instant reaction is when my 3yo bolts toward traffic. There have been times I've yelled "stop" and she just laughs and keeps running like its a game. It makes me insane. What I've done is make it a different kind of game. We practice yelling stop and seeing how fast she can stop and how still she can stand. She finds that somewhat fulfilling and hopefully when we really need her to stop she will. I find this "command" may be the only one I really need her to react to as it works in a number of different situations (don't touch the stove, don't climb the bookshelf, don't hit your brother, etc. can all be immediately addressed with "stop", followed by an explanation.)

[ChetMC]

Obedience

I've said over and over that one of the benefits of GD for us has been that our kids haven't become desensitized to direct orders, or words like "no" and "stop."
Our oldest knows that we only use those words when the situation is urgent or dangerous... and our younger DD is learning.

[elizawill]

when i've been in situations that required a quick reaction from my children - i usually respond without even thinking. for example, my son walked into the street where we live about a year back (it's not a neighborhood, but a main road) ....without thinking i screamed frantically and very loudly "DANIEL, NOOOO! COME HERE NOW!!!" i certainly didn't plan to scream at him like a drill seargent - it was honestly just the first reaction that flew out of mouth. i saw my son walking into the street & knew he was in danger. i could not grab him because he wasn't close enough, so i immediately yelled for him.... it was an instinct. likewise, even though we didn't prepare for that moment and my yelling - he knows me well obviously, & he could hear in my voice the urgency and need for obedience. i've been in so few of those instances though (thank god) but now that my kids are older, they understand safety a lot more and stay within the limits we've created. if it was a situation where i said "look out!" or "catch that before it falls" i'd say they may succeed or may not....but that would be true with an adult as well - that's why they're called accidents, yk?

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by maliceinwonderland

Apparently I have a specific tone, and when dd hears it she just knows. I would imagine this works because I don't generally raise my voice much, so when I do it means serious business.

I did have a problem when her father fed her a bunch of crap about how she had the right to question anything anyone (ie: me) ever told her to do (which in theory I get what he was saying, he just went about it sooo wrong, and I'd already had several conversations with her about what I imagine he was trying to get across) so it basically just led to the kind of situation I quoted above. :

Hahaha, I call that the mommy look. They will snap to attention with their mom, but we're still working on listening to older sis. I think I've always taken it so easy with them (choosing very slow times for the park or museum for example) that stressful situations confuse them, such as the 4th of July parade.

[LynnS6]

Well, see your husband has had years of experience to tell him that "quick, that glass is falling" means "that glass is going to fall off the table and hit the floor, and most likely break, getting glass all over the floor, which is sharp and dangerous. Thus, I don't want that to happen."

But see, your husband doesn't have to process all of that, it's automatic - we don't want glasses to fall. Ditto for stopping at a street corner when someone shouts "Stop!" We know that means "Danger, there's a large vehicle coming that could hit and kill you!"

A 3 year old doesn't have that experience. So, they require more intervention and explanation.

In addition, 3 year olds have iffy impulse control - once they've got an action actually underway, it's harder for them to stop than it is an adult. They can sometimes, but not reliably. By the time they're 4-5 that's improved greatly. By the time they're between 7 and 25 , they learn to "see ahead" to the consequences of their actions, and infer what might happen in a split second.

And I agree that children of this age respond well to tone. I do have "this is an emergency" tone. I know it because it's caused random drivers on the street to stop when I yell "STOP!" at my kids when they're about to go into traffic!

One way to "build" impulse control is to play games that require children to use it. Red light/green light, "mother may I" and other games like that really help. Then if you don't overuse "STOP!" AND you have a child with decent impulse control they'll get it eventually. Our 7 year old is pretty good. Our 4 year old is decent, though not reliable enough for me to trust by herself all the time.

[kungfu_barbi]

Originally Posted by pookel

I know I've read here often enough that "obedience" shouldn't be expected of children, that their own desires and choices should be respected, that they need gentle guidance rather than firm rules. Etc....

in my opinion, it's not either-or it's both-and. i think children need both gentle guidance and firm rules.

one very important family rule is 'stop means stop.' you can teach the stop rule and then practice it with small things, kind of like 'red-light green-light.'

i've said this before: the stop rule probably saved my son's life. when he was 3, ds was about to dart in front of an on-coming car in a parking lot. he was about 15 feet from me and i yelled my son's name and STOP! he did just as the car slammed on the brakes.

peace.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by ChetMC

I've said over and over that one of the benefits of GD for us has been that our kids haven't become desensitized to direct orders, or words like "no" and "stop."
Our oldest knows that we only use those words when the situation is urgent or dangerous... and our younger DD is learning.

:

Because I rarely use an urgent tone of voice or the like- when I DO dd is very aware. It's come up a lot lately now that I'm getting two in and out of the car. In that case I often say "FREEZE" to get her to stop and not step out in the parking lot.

-Angela

[WhaleinGaloshes]

Originally Posted by pookel

If, for instance, I yell at my husband, "Quick! Grab that before it falls off the table!" he'll do it in a heartbeat.
...
So it seems wrong to me to say that I shouldn't be teaching my child to respond in the same way. If he is pushing something on the table and I see that it's about to cause a glass to fall off and break, I should be able to yell "Stop! You're going to knock that glass off!" and expect him to listen to me.

Now, he doesn't always listen to me, because he's 3. But I think it's reasonable in this kind of circumstance to remind him strongly that he HAS to listen to me when I tell him to do something. Thoughts?

I think someone, like your husband, who's something older than three would want to respond to a warning like that, because we generally avoid breaking things when we can. Your husband wouldn't 'grab that' because you've strongly reminded him that he has to.

Likewise as your son gets older, I believe he will participate in that kind of 'quick thinking' communication. Why wouldn't he?

This doesn't strike me as a matter of obedience at all, more a life skills issue. Your husband isn't obeying you, he just knows how to respond to a warning to avoid an accident. I think you can foster life skills (like handling fragile things without braking them or responding quickly in a crisis) by guiding kids as they take as much responsibility as they can handle. And also, as others noted, by *not* demanding they live their lives like a constant game of Simon Says, but saving 'stop' for times they really need to stop.

For situations that would require instant obedience for safety (of people or important property) I put myself between DD and the problem in case she makes a dangerous move (or at minimum have an emergency backup plan.) No amount of strong reminding can make toddlers responsible for impulse control or quick thinking, IMO.

[auntiehallie]

Obedience
I've said over and over that one of the benefits of GD for us has been that our kids haven't become desensitized to direct orders, or words like "no" and "stop."

exactly.

the key is not to over-use The Tone (or The Look, or The Whatever). you have to use it only when you mean it. heck, my friggin' CAT knows when i mean business - because i don't ever use the tone unless i Mean It and i never use it when follow-through isn't warranted.

my experience is with kids i've nannied, and all of them have gotten the message without any conscious training on my part.

i also find that when *i'm* losing it for some reason (when the boys hit each other, for instance, or put themselves in danger - this really tweaks me) that my tone naturally becomes quieter (rather than louder) and more deadly. they know. "go upstairs right now to your room and wait for me [to get my own shit together so i can explain AGAIN why no one hits in this family]" delivered in the tone that comes to me in that moment is crystal clear. there's no room to misread me, really.

[Mom2J]

I agree with the pp's about the emergency tone. DS is, by no stretch of the imaginataion, an obediant child. Once we were in a pretty empty mall, and he was wandering a few feet away from me. Everything was fine, until he bolted right towards a bunch of cement stairs! There were so many of them, he would have gotten VERY hurt if he would have fallen down them. I was watching him, and saw him do it, but knew he could fall before I caught up to him, so I screamed from someplace I didn't even know I had, and he FROZE! Actually, everyone within earshot froze. LOL I don't know where that voice came from, and I couldn't fake it if I tried, but it worked instantly.

[mamazee]

I really think your ds will learn this naturally and it isn't anything that has to be taught. If you save that urgent tone for really urgent things, he'll recognize it in the same way your dh does - not as a need for obedience but as a need to help keep something bad from happening - and he'll respond in that way. But he won't at 3, I'm afraid. Maybe 4 though. My daughter picked up on that fairly early. If I say, "OH no!" she'll look for the problem and immediately try to help solve it with me without thinking, like another adult will.

[mamaduck]

I agree with Lynn that people learn to respond immediately to urgent requests as a result of experience. Your DH grabs a falling glass because he has had to deal with broken glass before, understands his responsibility to protect family members from broken glass, and doesn't want to pay for new possessions to replace broken things. You have to do a lot of explaining with little kids, and ask for help with cleaning up messes so the can begin to understand the rational behind being careful (though of course, I would not ask a 3 year old to help clean up broken glass!)

Your DH also has a quicker processing/reaction time than your three year does. Verbal and receptive abilities are still developing at three. He has to think about what your instructions mean, and he has to think for a minute in order to make a decision about whether or not to follow your directions. It takes longer to do this when you are three. (Heck, I know teenagers and adults who have difficulty processing requests and tend to respond too slowly to be helpful in emergency situations!)

I think the best way to encourage cooperation in children is to focus on trust as the foundation of teaching them discipline. Kids are more likely (longterm) to WANT to cooperate when they have learned to trust your judgement and your actions as generally beneficial to them.

[GradysMom]

i think you have a point op - and I wonder about that too.

I consider this sortof a natural responses thing... like I think ds should learn about anger by modeling how to saftly manage it... as oppose to stuffing it down and showing total, unnatural restraint.

So I say, act natural, and holler out a warning, "stop hot" if you must.

Like others have posted I thing DCs will learn tese things... It isn't really about obedience... this is about functioning safetly, and awarely in a group or society so it needs to be taught and demonstrated... over and over till they get it.

I guess if you are going about it the "gentle" way be prepared to let consequences happen, like cleaning up glass once in a while. They will learn eventually.

[keilonwy]

I'm not a momma until December (so who knows how this will work!), but my DH and I are planning to follow the tack of reserving "No" for when the situation is dangerous and requires that kind of fast, unthinking obedience. Dr. Sears (who has become a guru of sorts for me) says that if you are treating your children with kindness and gentleness in all other interactions, the discrepancy in your voice when you're frightened is enough to halt them in their tracks.

[WhaleinGaloshes]

Originally Posted by keilonwy

Dr. Sears (who has become a guru of sorts for me) says that if you are treating your children with kindness and gentleness in all other interactions, the discrepancy in your voice when you're frightened is enough to halt them in their tracks.

I think it's a good plan, but I urge anyone not depend on it in dangerous, high stakes situations. I'm confident Dr. Sears wouldn't guarantee that either for true danger.

My daughter doesn't hear 'stop' or even 'no' overly often and she is treated kindly and gently as a rule. And nonetheless, her 'emergency startle' adrenaline instinct (when many kids would stop in their tracks) is at the moment, unfortunately, to take off running in the wrong direction. She has also done this in tense situations, where she senses danger, and then turns to see me walking or reaching toward her.

She's really not a 'disobedient' kid, and she's not trying to start trouble. This seems to be what her id tells her to do in those rare moments. I'm sure it will mature as she learns to understand herself and the world better, and I'm very sure nothing I have done or could have done (or not done) would have effected this gut reaction much, one way or the other. Toddlers are really kind of loose cannons in many ways, whether raised with extreme gentleness or extreme authoritarianism, I really think it's important to be aware of that.