Workshop #4 - Baby’s Early Years; Vaccination - Page 2

[alegna]

Originally Posted by frontierpsych

Except I believe WV and MS. Last I heard they do not offer exemptions.

Those two only have medical exemptions which are hard to get and close to useless.

-Angela

[cjanelles]

I vaccinated my oldest kids (now 15 and 11) because it never occurred to me not to. I was 18 when my son was born and no one ever suggested that I consider not vaccinating or researching more closely before I let them pump my kids up with who knows what...

It frustrates me still. I live in a moderately-sized southern town and there are practically NO pediatricians offices that support NFL, no- or selective-vaxing, AP, or anything that is really important to me now with my 3rd child, my 13 mo DD2.

I've just bought Aviva Jill Romm's "Vaccinations: A thoughtful parents guide" based on the recommendations on the Vax board here at the MDC and although I'm only 1/4 of the way through, I'm already simply astonished at what I'm reading. At the things no one ever bothered to tell us. Stuff that should be common knowledge if parents are going to be compelled by the government to vax their kids...

It bothers me, big.

And yet almost everyone I know thinks I'm crazy to consider selective/no vax. Even when I share resources and concerns with them...they still think I'm just a conspiracy theorist nut or something.

It's so frustrating.

[MujerMamaMismo]

I'm 18 weeks pregnant with our first babe. I've been an MDC member since long before ttc and I feel like I've been reading and researching about everything on the parenting continuum for years...except for vaccinations because it's simply overwhelming. Every week, DP and I look at each other and say 'we HAVE to start researching vax, this week!'

I know that we'll be delayed and selective at the very least but with very little research, my gut says not to vax at all though I don't think DP is on the same page.

I hope that this workshop is a nice, gentle intro into the scary world of vax.

[Amys1st]

Welcome and happy to particpate. I have a dd Liz who is 6years old in public school and I have my 2 yr old dd, MAggie, a former micro preemie now a healthy 2 yr old.

With both we do choose to vax, but delayed and selected here and there. Maggie was 15/16 weeks premature and with her, we had decided to delay even longer than w Liz. Well then she was born early. I remember them shoving this sign here and there medical waivor under my nose and going thru the long list. It came to vax, they do not vax preemies (even 1 lb 12 oz ones like my MAggie) by "corrected" age, but actauly age since out of the womb. So she would have been 29 weeks gestanial and giving her 4 big honker shots by the AAP standards. I would not sign the vax ok form and I flat out told the fellow, when it comes time to vax, we would discuss it then. She seemed impressed by my confidence and way of saying- lets keep this kid alive and get to that stage first before we start shooting her up with all this stuff.

She received 7 blood transfusions during her hospital stay (this is pretty standard with micro preemies) so I agreed at age 8 weeks to give the Heb shot but I then spaced those out as well. When it came time to vax, I said I would follow up w my ped ( a former attending in that nicu and well respected) and she could vax her. I also knew I would be seeing the ped weekly for several months and we could get them done within those time frames. MY ped is also a pro vax but pro delay and selective vax.

I also had to get a few shots for Liz to get ready for kindergarden. My ped said- we could do them over time since I brought MAggie in for follow up all the time.

I think at age 2 1/2 she has had most, but I dont think she had the MMR. We would do one here and then one there and it seemed fine. The idea of giving all those at once just dosent jive (but then again, thats why I am at MDC!) and I always tell those who are pro all the vaxes at once- the aap dosent say require, it says schedule and its recommended which is a loose term in my book.

[uptowngirl]

I first had red flags about vaccinations when I began reading "A Shot In the Dark" by Barbara Loe Fisher. I was so moved by her book that I began researching vaccinations in general---something I had never questioned. I was pregnant with my first and it was 2002---the year that thimerosal was scheduled to be taken out of production (but not pulled from the shelves). There was no credible support in mainstream medicine (like we have Dr. Sears now), to help me with the doctors----but I had already decided on my own "delayed vaccine schedule." There would be no birth dose of HepB; no thimerosal, no more than 2 shots at a time; no live vaccines until age 3. I didn't start vaccines until he was 3 months old. I broke up the MMR. I have followed the same course with my dd. I want them vaccinated, but I want it done on my terms, with careful research and plenty of time between shots. It's an overwhelming, almost full time job to keep up with this process and the exemption issues, but to me---there was no battle more worth it than this one. Now my biggest fight is with the Catholic school, as they will not allow religious exemptions--and I want to be able to opt out of a vaccine if I want to. I guess that's material for another thread.

[changingseasons]

Originally Posted by berkeleyp

I feel totally overwhelmed by the vax debate and decision. I don't feel like I have the time, energy, and knowledge to make a truly informed choice. I am scared of the vaxes but also the diseases for the most part. With my toddler, I was critical of the vaxes but ultimately got convinced by my doc to do most of them. We skipped Hep B, Pox, and MMR and I think she never finished Hib. Now I am revisiting the issue with my new babe and really wishing I had more time to read. I read Stephanie Cave and started the Sears Vax book but I'd like to read more really anti vax stuff. Mostly I hate all the fear mongering on both sides of the issue. I am frustrated that the $$$ stands in the way of evidence.

Originally Posted by Arwyn

It does feel absolutely overwhelming. Frankly, I feel like I just don't have the time and energy to research the subject fully (I see people on here, as a previous poster mentioned, spending almost all their time investigating the issue, and I just have too much else to do!), and try to distill truth from all the noise.

I feel the same way- I don't feel justified making a decision either way until I have all the facts, and I just don't have the time to do the kind of research that I need to. So I too am going with the default of no vax.

When DD was born, I was already somewhat anti-vax, but DP was somewhat pro-vax... so since we hadn't fully made up our minds, we gave in to the pressure of the ped and allowed one round of shots. That was when DD was 2 months, and that very day was the beginning of her severe food allergies... I am absolutely certain that they were triggered by the vaccines- they just overloaded her immune system, and her body started rejecting foods (through my BM). I am still, 7 months later, struggling with her food reactions, and my diet is now down to less than 10 foods. I kick myself every day for allowing her to get the one round of shots.

Originally Posted by cjanelles

I've just bought Aviva Jill Romm's "Vaccinations: A thoughtful parents guide" based on the recommendations on the Vax board here at the MDC and although I'm only 1/4 of the way through, I'm already simply astonished at what I'm reading. At the things no one ever bothered to tell us. Stuff that should be common knowledge if parents are going to be compelled by the government to vax their kids...

I just checked that book out from my library for like the 3rd time... I'm hoping that this time I can at least start reading it before it's due.

[berkeleyp]

I'm curious what other books people have used to help make their decisions. A lot of them are outdated. Since they just took the mercury out in 2002, doesn't that make any book written prior somewhat useless?

Here is what I found that were written since 2002:


The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child (Sears Parenting Library) by Robert Sears (Paperback - Oct 22, 2007)

Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine's Greatest Lifesaver by Arthur Allen

Vaccine Safety Manual for Concerned Families and Health Practitioners: Guide to Immunization Risks and Protection by Neil Z. Miller and Russell, M.D. Blaylock (Paperback - April 10, 2008)

Do Vaccines Cause That?! A Guide for Evaluating Vaccine Safety Concerns by Martin G. Myers and Diego Pineda (Paperback - Jun 16, 2008)

RAISING A VACCINE FREE CHILD by WENDY LYDALL (Paperback - Feb 4, 2005)

Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective by Neil Z. Miller (Paperback - Jan 1, 2008)

Has anyone read any of these besides the Sears?

[uptowngirl]

"Autism --a natural medicine guide" by Stephanie Marohn is excellent (athough the title would not seem like a vaccine guide; it's an environmental guide in general); "What your doctor may not tell you about childhood vaccinations" by Stephanie Cave, is outstanding. Also, "Children with Starving Brains" by Jaqueline McCandless, deals with the MMR and leaky gut issue. And if you're up for it, read "Evidence of Harm" by David Kirby. These people are pioneers in books about vaccinations--and the effects on the body. McCandless is more "scientific" in her writing, but Stephanie Cave is VERY readable. Kirby's book is mostly about the CDC/FDA/Drug Companies and the alleged "cover-up" of the downside of vaccination in the US.

[lkburns]

21 months, no vacc. yet

This is my first post on MDC - I've been put off because I don't know what ds and all that stuff means (where is the dictionary for this site?) but I want to be involved in the vacc. discussion so here goes. I read like crazy when our daughter was born but now am just busy and stopped taking her to her "routine" check-ups after being harrassed again at her 15 mo. check-up - I had heard this doc was so great - supportive of alternative vacc. schedules - but since my "alternative" was to do none and take the time instead to try to pick her brain and talk about it - well - it just wore me out. I lie about it to my family because they are all medical and far right and my daughter's dad has backed off and left it at . .if something happens . .it is on my shoulders . . . so some days when it strikes me she is perfectly full of joy and health and beauty - maybe today is the day I should go make her sick and get her some shots . . my dream was to find a book that said here are your options 1) no vacc. 2) plan A 3) plan B 4) plan C 5) follow normal medical protocol . . . but I never found it and haven't found a doc to work with me on it . .it seems either you do all or nothing or you come up with your own plan and that feels so complex. So . . now we do nothing and hope that we don't get exposed to polio (because it is in the Amish population a few hours away in Western WI) or to measles (because it is in Milwaukee, a few hours in the other direction) . . .etc. . . we continue to breast feed (tonight at my dad's . .my stepmom said . .do you think you're cute? breastfeeding her when she is 21 months old? it is ridiculous. I repeated my mantra - we are following the WHO's recommendation of breastfeeding 'til age 2 and then letting her self-wean after that . . . anyways - tired of crap from my family and glad to hear ideas from others about this. Thanks!

[Arwyn]

Everything you need to know about MDC! (Here are the abbreviations)

[gorgorita]

We don't vax. It's my first child and I am still researching but my gut telling me to not vax. It's hard to find a ped, to think about exemption, daycare, school. It's hard to see how other people react when they learn you don't vax and they don't even want to research it. It's hard to lie when asked by other parents and then worry so your kid doesn't get the desease from their just vaxed kids. But in the end, it feels right.
Knowing what I now know, it's harder to think of injecting my baby with chemicals than facing all the difficulties associated with non-vaxing.
I am grateful for finding MDC at the right moment in my life. Thanks to all the support from here, my baby didn't get a single shot.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by lkburns

fSo . . now we do nothing and hope that we don't get exposed to polio (because it is in the Amish population a few hours away in Western WI)

There is no polio circulating in the US. What you're probably thinking about is a few years back a section of the Amish population was found to have been exposed to the VAX strain of polio (the strain that is in the old OPV vaccine- a live vaccine)

But there were not any clinical cases of polio.

-Angela

[Krisis]

When the NICU called to ask our permission to give Toby the Hep B vax, I didn't even think about it - I just said yes. I got there and was scrubbing in as they vaxed him and his screams just about killed me. Likewise when they gave him his 2 mo. vaccinations. After that, I started researching and reading up on delaying.

I did want to delay in the first place, but my pediatrician told me horror stories and freaked out, so I went with the 2 month vaccines. Toby has his 4 month checkup this week and he will not be getting ANY more until he is at least 3, and no chicken pox, adn the MMR will be spaced out.

I'm not done researching, but just the stuff they put in those vaccines scares me.

[Arwyn]

Originally Posted by gorgorita

Knowing what I now know, it's harder to think of injecting my baby with chemicals than facing all the difficulties associated with non-vaxing.

So what do we consider the difficulties associated with not-vaccinating (or going with a selective/delayed schedule)? (I ask because I'm trying to think through this.) There's dealing with friends and family; dealing with medical professionals; the risks of the diseases. What else?

Oh, here's one: we have chicken pox in my neighbourhood, and I just realized that "exposing child to chicken pox" is not some theoretical future proposition, but something I have to contemplate right now. Is he old enough? Can I really live with making my child sick? Is it better to avoid the diseases, or try to be exposed? Or some of each (and which is which?)? Even if I decide I don't really need to know allllllllll the reasons to not vaccinate (which sounds like a full time job!), there's still stuff I need to think about.

[DaytonsMom]

I didn't find MDC till ds was probably 4 or 5 months old. I found mothering through my LLL when i asked her about vaxing. she gave me a back article about vaxing. then i came on line and found out more. it seemed so overwhelming at first!! i remember not even knowing where to start! Ds had his first round of shots and it was prety bad. he cried and cried and was so fussy! It was hard for a long time knowing that i had done it without researchign first. now i know that any decision has to be fully researched! not just because my dr. or society says so. We have stopped going to well baby visits because of being harrassed by the docs! It's just not worth it to me! I hope that we are able to expose him to things like chicken pox so he can get natural immunity for life!!! i think i read something about it being bad to be exposed to chicken pox while you are pregnant, does anyone know...is this true? can't remember where i read or heard it or if i just dreamed it!lol which sometimes happens!


Anyway, someone said on a thread once that you'll jsut know when you finally come to the decision that's right for your family! and everytime i got scared and thought of vaxing i would think about actually taking him to the dr and letting them inject him with all that horrible stuff and i just couldn't even go there in my mind! I knew i couldn't do it IRL!! And reading all the stories on line of people who's child had had a reaction and people IRl, it was just way too much for me! So best of luck to you mammas as you deal with this very difficult and personal decision.

[brightonwoman]

I had a hard time at first trying to sort out all the info I was hearing...on one side it was "vaxes are toxic and will give your kid autism" and on the other side it was "you don't want your baby to die from polio" and it was just hard to figure out where the SCIENCE was in the midst of all the emotion, you know?
I finally ended up deciding to go to the most scientific sources I could, which was to the CDC website and the manufacturers inserts for the vaccines themselves. Granted the CDC wants us to vax, but they also have the official results of the official tests... Anyway, as I complied information, I wrote it up on my blog. Just the process of writing it up vax by vax was enough to help me determine that there were some vaxes we did NOT want, and some that we DO. We are delayed/selective around here.
In any case, if you'd like to see my collected research (more or less just the research, not conclusions--I prefer to let people find those on their own) feel free to visit!

[amnesiac]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

So what do we consider the difficulties associated with not-vaccinating (or going with a selective/delayed schedule)? (I ask because I'm trying to think through this.) There's dealing with friends and family; dealing with medical professionals; the risks of the diseases. What else?

There's also the issue of dealing with things like daycare, school, summer camp, etc. I know that causes a lot of us anxiety. And it's not always as simple as knowing about legal exemptions, it's feeling comfortable interacting with those people/agencies in a positive way.

Something else I think is hard is feeling good about the idea that there is not one right answer. We all have so many varied situations and perspectives that we just won't always share the same conclusions when it comes to our vaxing situations. In a way that makes it even harder to feel confident in our choices. That's why I'm grateful we have opportunities like this to just talk & support each other through the process.

[PassionateWriter]

the misinformation is what upsets me the most. most dr's tell patients that the mercury has all been removed, but thats not the case. there are still trace amounts and depending on how many vax a child gets in a day, teh content could still be substantial (not that i believe any amount is good).

i came to MDC a few years ago and started reading about vaccines. My first 2 were fully vaccinated and we had no problems (that I know of). After reading the vax forum here and several books (I think i have about 20 books on the subject) I decided we aren't going to vax for anything. My 2.5 year old is the healthiest child I've had thus far and thus far he has been completely medicine free. I'm at a point now where I feel completely comfortable with not vax him and soon to be baby.

[Materfamilias]

What I'd love to see is everyone's reason for not/delayed/selective vaxing. What was the bottom line for you?
I've done some reading on it, but it is extraordinarily complex and there are very strong opinions on all sides (often not very well grounded on research, which makes me nervous).

[GuppysMom]

bottom line

I feel more confident about caring for (with the help of modern medicine IF necessary) a baby or child with a VPD than caring for a child with autism or some other disease that I may have helped cause by saying yes to a vaccine.

We will probably do some vaccines in the future. But for now we will default to no vax unless I'm convinced that risk of the vaccine outweighs the risk of the disease -- for our family, with our genes, for our lifestyle, our priorities, our fears, etc.