Workshop #4 - Baby’s Early Years; Vaccination - Page 3

[alegna]

Originally Posted by Materfamilias

What I'd love to see is everyone's reason for not/delayed/selective vaxing. What was the bottom line for you?
I've done some reading on it, but it is extraordinarily complex and there are very strong opinions on all sides (often not very well grounded on research, which makes me nervous).

The bottom line for me was a risk/benefit analysis for each vaccine and disease. I couldn't find any vaccines that I felt were worth the risk.

-Angela

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by Materfamilias

What was the bottom line for you?

None of the VADs worried me as much as the possible damage that vaccines can do.

1. No vaccine, chance of having to deal with a treatable VAD

2. Vaccines, chance of dealing with a non treatable and unacknowledged reaction +the chance of dealing with the VAD as well.

Easy choice for me!

[uptowngirl]

My bottom line was that I felt in most cases, the possible harm by the vaccine ingredients outweighed the possibility of contracting the disease (or being harmed by it). I felt the schedule and number of vaccines was ridiculous, weighed against the disease risk. For example, what average 2 month old, home with mom, is at risk for Hep B, 2 types of meningitis, polio, diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, and rotovirus? I mean ok---I get the pertussis concern and perhaps the prevnar, within the first 6 months. But unless you dumped the baby on the streets of some very poor third world village, how is s/he going to even remotely need to be protected against EVERYTHING all at once? Especially when the risk of that amount of aluminum/mercury has been proven to cause harm? It's simple math.

My bottom line with the flu shot is that I know what the flu is like. I don't know what the thimerosal will do. the flu is a possibility. The thimerosal is a given. Again, the math. Something that it seems a lot of people with a medical degree can't do. Sorry to sound snarky. My hair just stands up on the back of my neck when I talk about this.

[MoonWillow]

Bottom Line;

Like I told our *most recent* pediatrician, I remain unconvinced that the benefits outweigh the risks. Period.
Given my dd's severe food allergies, I shudder to think what could have happened to her had I not listened to my instincts.
I don't even research that much anymore because I just don't plan on anyone getting shots. But its upsetting that we are SO far outside the norms of society on this one. I don't find it fun or easy to go against the grain with my choices.
I do however think that there may be an awakening of sorts going on, with Jenny Mccarthy (and others like her) questioning the status quo. I think (I hope) that more people will start to realize thats its ok, even necessary to think for themselves. It's just such a shame that the medical profession does not support free thinking. THAT is a huge problem IMO, the holier than thou "my way or the highway" attitude of doctors. The problem extends far beyond the vax issue although thats a big one (and on topic of this discussion ) especially given the enormous amount of recommeded shots these days. Yikes.

[Tinker]

Funny I should run across this today. Just yesterday a friend e-mailed me to ask about our vax story. I'll just copy and paste what I told her. And this actually a condensed version of our story . As we get further from this point in our lives, the details get a fuzzy. As well as all the research I did. We have made our choice, so it's just not something I think about everyday any more, so forgive the vagueness of some of it.

Don't do them!!!!! At the very least delay them til you can do all the research. You want to be 110% sure that you are comfortable with the risks and side effects versus any possible benefits. You can always do them later, but you can't undo them once they've been done.

If I had it to do all over again, neither of my girls would have gotten any vaxes.
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, but it is kind of a long story so bear with me.

When Katie was born she was a happy content comfortable baby. When we brought her home that changed. She puked constantly, and I don't mean spit up I mean puke. But since Samantha was the same way, I never thought too much of it. She also always had a stuffy nose and but other then that she seemed ok. Then It was time to get shots, after that Katie did not sleep and she cried inconsolably and if possible the puking got worse. After about a month of so she seemed to be getting better. Then of course it was time to get more shots. And it went on this way for months. I started getting really concerned when she wasn't hitting ANY milestones. She didn't use her hands much and she NEVER lifted her arms over her head by herself. When we did to dress her or play with her, she screamed like she was in pain. Her doctor said she was just grouchy and had a very small nose, that's why she screamed and was stuffy all the time. And she was sick constantly. The puking of course was because if reflux and we got a RX for that. (If you could hear my voice right now it would be dripping with sarcasm and disgust!) Her last shots were at 8 months, almost 9 months. At that point she could sit and that's it. She couldn't get to a sitting position by herself nor could she get from a sitting position to laying down. And when I say she could sit and that's it I mean, she couldn't even roll over! Katie didn't roll over on her own till she was 10 months!
A friend started talking to be about vaccines and I started researching them at that point And that's when we stopped vaccinating. Everything people were saying about harmful vax side effects fit Katie perfectly. But to further prove to us that that was her problem, within a month of her last vaxes she started to improve. She stopped puking, just stopped! Her nose got unstuffed for the first time in her whole life. She started talking a little and stopped screaming all the time. She played and raised her arms and moved her body like she had never willingly done before. Just a couple of weeks before her first b-day she started to crawl and roll. At 15 and a half months old sh started walking. And shortly after that she started to eat table food. Her stomach hadn't been able to handle it so she had been exclusively breastfed up until then.

Now she is caught up to and has even past some of the other kids her age. The only time her nose is stuffy is when she is sick and she is rarely sick. She is a completely different child. Paul and I talk all the time about what a difference it is and how amazing the transformation in her. I mean I honestly didn't think she would ever walk and now she runs. And it all coincides with us stopping the vaxes. And now that I know what vaxes can do to a baby and the side effects and stuff, I have a whole new insight as to why Samantha was a difficult baby. Her doc said she just had colic, for a year.

And then of course when you look at the vaccine ingredients it's unbelievable that "they" think it's a good think to pump that crap into our babies bodies.

MDC is a great place to get links about vaccines. I believe the site is called VAERS ( http://vaers.hhs.gov/ ) that's a really good place to start. This is where people report adverse vaccine reaction, including deaths.

And also selectively vaxing is an option. I mean there are some that when you think about it why are they required for infants and children. Like Hep B. How many kids and babies do you know have unprotected sex or are IV drug users? There's just not much chance they are even going to get that, so why put them at risk with the vax?

[tanya1976]

I vax. I feel it works for my family. That's that.

[Emmy'sMom]

My bottom line...

While I was pregnant I read vaccination books and researched here on MDC. It wasn't until becoming pregnant and feeling a need to look into vaccinations that I realized my immune disease (I have Rheumatoid Arthritis) might have been caused from an MMR booster I received in college (developed RA months after receiving the shot). Peggy O'Mara's book states there is a link bewtween the MMR and RA in adults. I had no idea. That was the bottom line for me. No way do I want what happened to me to happen to my daughter. I began thinking more about my experiences with vaxes--the only time I have ever had the flu was the year I (for some reason ) decided to get the flu shot. My incredibly healthy dog got bordetella (kennel cough) after receiving the vaccine two months before. I then began thinking about the kids I new who were vaxed vs those not vaxed. I don't know if this is true in all cases but the un-vaxed lo I know (including my 1 yo) rarely if ever get sick. The majority of the kids I know are vaxed and are frequently sick. I feel that vaccines impair one's immune system.

I worried about my decision to not vax for a while, especially while dd was really young and it was winter and there were a few reported cases of whooping cough in the area. But now I see how strong and healthy she is and I rarely think about it any more. And then I think about how I don't get the flu and it is so prevelent; then why worry about MMR, polio, tetanus, whooping cough, etc. when I rarely hear of anyone getting them???

One concern I have is sending my dd to preschool. I would like her to go to a private preschool in our community in a few years but I am not sure if a phil. exemption works for private preschools--anyone know??

[uptowngirl]

Whether or not you can get a philosophical exemption depends on your state law---and the school itself. A private school that accepts no public funds, can disallow you to utilize exemptions that are normally allowed in public schools.

[nerdymom]

my "bottom line"

I suppose I have something rare when it comes to this supject. I have the support of my mom. My mother, who was an LPN for an OB when I was born, who still firmly supports the medical model for birth (though natural medicine is good enough for everything else ), who thinks that children shouldn't be breastfed for more than 10-12 months, supports no vax. This astounded me when I found out (a couple months ago no less)!

Apparently, I had all my vacinations. I'm the eldest. The next child had most of hers. The next had less than half. The youngest hasn't had any. And guess what? My youngest sister is JUST AS HEALTHY, IF NOT MORE HEALTHY, than I am.

After the research I did, and then speaking with my mother and learning why she chose not to vax, I made my decision. I chose not to vax, and I am very comfortable with this choice.

Originally Posted by berkeleyp

I feel totally overwhelmed by the vax debate and decision. I don't feel like I have the time, energy, and knowledge to make a truly informed choice. I am scared of the vaxes but also the diseases for the most part.

that's all. Just

[mean_jeannie]

When ds went in for his 9 mo well baby visit he received 4 vaccines. I thought, 'that is waaay to much.' So I confronted my pedi who went completely defensive on me. I just decided ds was too little to be exposed to so much. I got the religious exemption so I wouldn't be under pressure to decide until I was ready and ds was older.

[jennmk13]

We had our first baby in March and will NOT be Vaxing. I read several books on weather to vax or not and still felt very confused. Ironically it was after reading the Dr. Sears book that I finally felt conviction in my choice not to vax. I don’t agree with everything that he has to say in his book, but for me the descriptions of the diseases were very clear. In finally understanding the diseases I was able to decide that I preferred the disease over the vax.

[cjanelles]

Originally Posted by Emmy'sMom

I realized my immune disease (I have Rheumatoid Arthritis) might have been caused from an MMR booster I received in college (developed RA months after receiving the shot). Peggy O'Mara's book states there is a link bewtween the MMR and RA in adults. I had no idea.

Private schools do not have to comply with any exemptions, from what I've read.

I just wanted to add that I had no idea that there was a link between vaccines and Crohn's Disease until I began researching, either...unfortunately, my oldest daughter (11) has Crohn's. It is because of her illness that I was so determined to breastfeed my baby daughter and now I'm finding out that I could be exposing her to even more risks by vaxing...

It just troubles me so deeply. I feel like we have this mountain of resistance ahead of us as parents who don't just blindly follow along with the government's rules and it seems almost insurmountable.

[uptowngirl]

Really, it seems insurmountable, but it isn't. Reading a few choice books (or even articles) will help a lot. I wouldn't want anyone to feel that it's too much to consider---so they just trust the powers that be. If you do nothing else, then just space out the vaccines. there are other problems that can cause autoimmune disorders, so just consider vaccine research as one parental responsibility--among the many we have some control over. You can't help what you don't know...so I wouldn't want any mother to feel guilty for her child's condition--even if she could have made different choices. We all do the best we can do.

[Writerbird]

I was concerned about the number of antigens my child would be exposed to if I followed the "traditional" schedule, given that the schedule is a tradition of all of ten years' standing. My pediatrician told me that the number of antigens thought necessary to stimulate the proper response has actually dropped significantly, and that the real concern was the other ingredients. For this reason she did not recommend breaking up the combo shots. That made sense to me and fitted in with my own research and (admittedly poor) understanding of microbiology.

Basically, I decided yes to Hep, Polio, and DTaP. I decided no to chicken pox, flu, and rotavirus, after my reading on the risks versus the rewards. The rest I'll decide on as I go. My pediatrician is not terribly crunchy, but she is fully supportive - hell, she's the one that told me the rotavirus shot was purely a moneymaker!

I wanted a natural birth because the science supported it as the best thing for my baby, so having the science in hand for the shots is even more important to me. It's unfortunate that the drive for corporate profits have obscured the science behind vaccines, but it's still there. I find it a lot easier to just research shot by shot rather than trying to answer the vaccine question all at once.

Personal footnote on HepB - We declined the Hep vaccine at birth, because I hadn't had the chance to research it yet, and I figured I could keep him away from those dirty infant hookers long enough to make an informed decision.

However, I went ahead and authorized it at his two month visit - the reason is is that the CDC reports that 30% of the people with Hep B acquired it in childhood. Presumably before sexual activity or tattoo acquisition! The final straw for me was when a good friend of mine got extremely sick from Hep B. He has no tattoos, does not do drugs, and has been faithful to his wife since he married her in 2002. He wasn't exactly a lady killer before that. Given what he knows now, he thinks he may have gotten it as a child - perhaps after a hospital stay, perhaps after a nasty fight with another kid, the kind where everyone is bleeding on everyone else.

It's a very serious infection that has no cure, causes serious pain, and more. I decided it was worth it to vaccinate.

[guest9921]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm

None of the VADs worried me as much as the possible damage that vaccines can do.

1. No vaccine, chance of having to deal with a treatable VAD

2. Vaccines, chance of dealing with a non treatable and unacknowledged reaction +the chance of dealing with the VAD as well.

Easy choice for me!

This was about it for me as well.
Also, both my brother and I had damaging vaccine reactions, and my gut instinct told me immediately to Not Do it.

DS1 is 3, and has a rockin immune system. His 'colds' last a day or two, and he's only had a handful of visible ones.

I feel very solid in my decision not to vaccinate my children.
I managed to survive with only 6 total vaccines(inc boosters.) Thats the bottom line for me.

I also feel like we are doing quite a disservice to our following generations to not have natural immunity to many VPDs.

We're trading acute illnesses for chronic illness, and I'm not buying what our government is selling.

[forest~mama]

Originally Posted by alegna

There is no polio circulating in the US. What you're probably thinking about is a few years back a section of the Amish population was found to have been exposed to the VAX strain of polio (the strain that is in the old OPV vaccine- a live vaccine)

But there were not any clinical cases of polio.

-Angela

Oh I would love a link to some info on this that my mother would consider legitimate. She is constantly badgering me about polio, because of the polio outbreak when she was younger.

This is a great discussion, and I'm finding out that it's kinda normal that I feel lost on what to do at this point. My dd is 2 1/2, and it's time that I have to face the question of whether or not to continue to keep her vax free.

I guess I just think there are a lot of scare tactics that are used on both sides of the fence. I just want to find the "magic" book that gives me the truth (though I know it's not out there), and is not too far on one side or the other. That way I will know that I am making my own decisions, not just being swayed by literature.

I did browse through "Vaccinations: A thoughtful parents guide" once, and did like what I saw. I think I may try to borrow it again.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by ~lioneyes~

Oh I would love a link to some info on this that my mother would consider legitimate. She is constantly badgering me about polio, because of the polio outbreak when she was younger.

Try searching here - there was a lot of discussion when this was news. Sorry- I don't have enough computer time to track it down...

-Angela

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by ~lioneyes~

Oh I would love a link to some info on this that my mother would consider legitimate. She is constantly badgering me about polio, because of the polio outbreak when she was younger.

Here is one I happen to have saved:

http://www.vaccineinfo.net/news/Poli...ak_Amish.shtml

[boigrrrlwonder]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

Well, this was supposed to be my Welcome! post, but I'm a little late. Anyway, welcome, and thanks for the great discussion so far.



This is me. We haven't vaccinated Naked Baby because my general philosophy is one needs convincing evidence to justify any intervention (in pregnancy, birth, and life in general), and I'm just not convinced -- but I'm not convinced in either direction.

If I lived in a social vacuum, I'd agree with this, but I always worry about charges of medical neglect because I don't vaccinate - so I feel like my decision not to vax should be more informed.

That said, we aren't vaxing. I really struggle with whether to give DTap - in fact the only shot she's ever had was a DTaP shot, but for the time being, I'm not vaxing.

[lachingona1]

I have done sooooo much research in the last 7 years. I have lots of reasons as to why I don't vaccinate. Some being...

~the ingredients
~the artificial immunity vs natural immunity factor
~vaccines don't have to be proven safe or effective to added to the list of mandated shots
~I don't trust our government or doctors

Natural vs artificial immunity

Natural immunity only happens after recovering from the actual disease. With the actual disease, the organism has to pass through many of the body's natural immune defense systems in the nose, throat, lungs before it ever gets as far as the bloodstream. The organism triggers many unknown biological events before it ever reaches the bloodstream.

Vaccination by direct injection makes the unproven assumption that the mere artificial stimulation of antibody production by the sudden presence of a foreign agent in the blood is the whole story of immunity. Obviously that isn't true, the need for booster shots proves that.

A scientist from Havard's Medical School explained that the way vaccines are evolved is to make them weaker and weaker to the point where they don't produce any immediate inflammatory response. The problem is, in this form, the altered virus can penetrate deeper into our tissues than would naturally have been possible. They become latent there for years, or for a very short time, as hidden allergens, waiting like a slow virus. Then when something triggers them into action, even years later, the stowaway microorganisms can manifest themselves in any location or system of the body, causing major dysfunction, degenerative diseases, or even death. But not from the original disease.

That way, no one can prove the vaccine was the cause of death.

Infants are not born with a blood brain barrier. It isn't complete until maturity. So things like mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum are allowed access to the brain. The toxins have two main effects: Kill brain cells and prevent interconnections between brain cells from forming. Like the ability to learn.

Certain areas of the brain, like the ones that allow a baby to walk or speak or to learn are damaged, the problem may go unnoticed for years. Later on when the impairment is noticed, doctors will be running around looking for some recent event to blame it on. Too late, it's already over.


Real protection has to begin with information- sound information, not propaganda. Learn about the ingredients, the culture media, the testing involved, the politics and economics involved, the actual anatomy and physiology of infants.
The info must not only come from those making their living selling vaccines. Human health does not come form a drug or vaccine. A healthy baby needs no outside assistance, no tampering with the blood. The mysteries of health lie within the body, not within medical texts.

Some facts:

`Infectious diseases were over 90% resolved by the time vaccines came onto the market

`Hep B vax was outlawed in France after 15,000 citizens filed a class action suit against the government.

`In 2001 the world wide vaccine market size was 3.6 billion and is growing 12% each year. FOLLOW THE MONEY

`Over 40 million injections are given per day, over 12 billion a year.

`A very high percentage of doctors don't vax their children. I will have to finds the source (I have it somewhere) and get the actual percentage. It's astonishing!

`Many think vaccines are being used for population control

I could go on and on and on but that is enough for now!